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Hi Fredd. Speed building to maximise profit, by turning out houses built to current regs ( or usually worse ) isn't really the ethos of this forum. Typically I'd expect someone like yourself to have joined in order to compare performance / build quality and ASK for figures on which to base your arguments for either method. Here folks have designed, built and are now living in their homes, and have been kind enough to give a warts-n-all account of how things did or didn't work out. Best of all though are the performance figures, some of which are incredible. Could you heat any of your builds with a hairdryer ? Folk here could. Not fiction or speculation.....Fact. Chucking up an EPC cert isnt really good enough for your particular argument to be taken seriously TBH. EPCs are based on assumptions. Most 'express' builds don't get properly inspected mid build and often are found to have had poorer quality insulation and airtightness, mostly due to contractors being on, or given, tight budgets. Self builders WANT a thorough inspection, WANT to pay for superior work quality ( and ethics ), rather than maximise profit and focus on turnaround times. For this forum, we're apples and your oranges I'm afraid. Stick around and have a read of a few of the blogs. I'm an old dog that's learned a few new tricks here .

I would do it as I have done with this one, panels in the dry then a Brick skin, (no maintenance on bricks and I think they look nice when laid well) I don't like blockwork, I don't like masonry hangers, I don't like B&B floors, I don't like the way bricklayers insulate, I don't like channels for cables, I don't like dot and Dab, I don't like fitting linings in masonry, I don't like cracks and I don't like how out of upright and level brickies leave everything. Other than that its each to their own and obviously that is just my opinion

@Fredd I think you should stop making such random and deeply unfounded comments in order to be taken seriously. . @JSHarris's "slab" is a passive raft on 300mm of eps. Your preferred method using block and beam has a ventilated cold underside so is inherantly flawed from birth, yet you seem to champion it. . I sincerely hope you take some time out to read up on the threads / members blogs here and then maybe you can come back with some educated comments. Assuming ( incorrectly ) what people have done here is quite disrespectful in my opinion, and a little embarrassing for you I'm afraid, so please only refer to individual cases if your able to state the FACTS that reinforce what you write here. I suggest a new approach for you. Ask a member what the spec of their build is, rather than assume that they made "a wrong choice", as many who have built here have had the opportunity to examine different build methods, choose from real life case studies, and have had years to decide accordingly. Youll find members and staff here very patient and accommodating, but it won't last for long if you keep making such assumptions. FYI the member who has in your opinion chosen the wrong floor method is one member who's house would be overheated by said hairdryer, and the build was delivered with guarantees of how the house would be delivered to the client. Guaranteed airtightness to 0.6 ach, and thermal qualities that would make a chuck-me up brick / block colander look like Swiss cheese. I just don't think you'll sell your POV here I'm afraid, as your preaching the wrong sermon in the wrong church me thinks.

@Hecateh, have a little read of these.... 'Warts' number 1 and 2 will ring a bell Objection overruled, m'lud More recently, this Of the 20 or 30 people who have stopped to natter while the build is in process, a handful have made reference to our neighbours public objections. Without exception, their diagnosis of the motive for negative comment they had personally heard or seen was jealousy. I don't know whether that is right or not. A couple of years on and I'm getting the odd smile, a brief chat from neighbours. And ten years from now it won't be forgotten, but the pointless minor spats will be. And finally, this will put a smile of recognition on your face: @JSHarris at his best. Grow a thicker skin: and take it off as soon as there's a hint of thoughtfulness on the part of your neighbours.

I think @Fredd should be read in a Cornish accent or maybe Welsh... clearly one of the regulars having a fantastic time pushing all your buttons? I'm loving it, it's better than the adventures of Rollo... although there may be a similarity or two in the writing style ?

Doesn't seem to be any speculation. The statement's clear: £40,000 quoted 200mm quoted (two bricks high) That's a house of well over 4 acres..........................

I'm off out to my shed to carve a massive wooden spoon-shaped object from a spare railway sleeper.

It's a win-win with an insulated slab, not only out performing "traditional" foundation systems, but costs less also (for a flat site like mine with a reasonable bearing capacity of the sub-soil) IF there was an issue, I'd only have myself to blame, but the tails are no higher than is normal, the photo is taken at ground level to exaggerate any out-of-flat of the slab so the appearance of the height of the tails is a parallax effect.

No. Just 32 independent lighting circuits. I was going to add a few more but its only a small house.

LMAO. I would image he's fitting a ceiling pendant and one double socket in each room

The question you have to ask yourself is... What would Fredd think?

Do your best. They’ll caulk the rest. ?? probably best i stay out of this.

We did find a change in the attitude of most of our neighbours once the long, noisy, dirty and road-obstructing phase was over. As soon as the house was up (which only took 4 1/2 days), things started to change. There was general amazement that a house could be up and weathertight in less than a week, which definitely caused a stir in the village, in a positive way. Once a few people passing started asking about the house, usually prompted by the way it had been built so quickly, a genuine interest seemed to develop amongst the hard core of "village elders", who seem to wield a lot of influence (they are all ladies over a certain age, that have formed an "independent ladies group" in the village). This peaked when I was asked if I would give a talk in the village hall about our "no bills" house, and that went down very well, it was standing room only at the back of the village hall. From then on, with the exception of one slightly awkward neighbour, we've had nothing but help and support from all those around us. So, I guess the moral is that there can be light at the end of the tunnel, and that disagreements and annoyance from the past can be forgotten before too long.

Offence taken, deeply, sorry, but I don't take kindly to the implication that I'm some sort of thick fool who, quote "can't see the wood for the trees". It is offensive to me, and was directed personally at me by being a quote, just like this is directed at you. You aren't looking at things from a self-builder's perspective, which is always going to be a fair bit different from a mass builder's view. Our site was like a fair few self-build plots, awkward, expensive to clear and level, and a solo plot with no mains water or drainage. Straight off we had to look for a build system that would cope with the clay soil that was remaining after we'd removed around 2.5m depth of soil and undergrowth above to level the plot. Trench foundations were a non-starter, because of the ground conditions. If we went deep enough to use something like this, with clay boards, we'd have been below the local water table. We're adjacent to a stream inside an AONB, and opposite a listed build, all of which put tight restrictions on what we could and could not do. That's not untypical, a fair few self-build plots tend to be like this in some ways - they are usually being sold for self-build just because they are too damned awkward for a small builder to take on as a job he could do and make a profit on. Our build is 130m² over 1.5 stories, with a 6m x 4m detached garage at the other end. The total cost for the foundations, UFH, insulated, weathertight, frame (including the garage), guaranteed to meet or exceed passive house standards, including an air test that was below 0.6 ACH (I think ours was around 0.43 ACH, or about 1.22m³/m²/hr in BC terms) was around £63k. Taking away the detached garage cost, the house foundations, UFH, insulated, airtight and weathertight house worked out at around £423/m². To that cost has to be added the external larch cladding (around £7k including labour), the 3G glazing and all the external doors (around £8.5k including fitting), and the slate roofing, guttering and downpipes (another £8.5k) Before going down this route I explored other foundation options, in particular, given the challenging nature of the ground, and we were looking at around £12k to £15k just to put suitable foundations in. A passive slab won hand's down, on price, speed, giving us a finished floor internally, with no need for screeding, inclusion of UFH, etc. One major advantage we had was that our power floated slab, because of the passive design and the need to be absolutely flat to get the frame to sit square with absolutely no packing (any packing would have messed up the airtightness a lot, and needed loads of work filling and taping up things that wouldn't otherwise need it) resulted in us having a very flat and smooth floor that we could tile and lay timber flooring on to with minimal preparation. Before tiling (with large format graded 12mm travertine) our tiler spent around 40 minutes going around the ground floor with his laser looking for the highest point. He couldn't find one, and concluded that the floor was flat. That saved us 9 bags of adhesive for the travertine, at over £20 a bag, so was another small saving. You say that saving 26 sheets of plasterboard over the original estimate that included normal cutting losses due to things not being dead square, or the actual size they are supposed to be, makes, quote "zero difference". To me saving over £100 to spend on something useful, is worth having. As another example of a side effect of building a house in a factory to tight tolerances, as ours was, I was looking to buy a corner desk a few weeks ago. I had the drawings handy and they gave the depth of the corner, from plaster skim to the plaster bead on the corner, as 962mm. I checked this with a tape and it was 962mm, the damned house is built exactly to the drawings, even down to the allowances for plasterboard and skim. That's been repeated time and time again with significant time savings on things like fitting out the kitchen and bathrooms, where all the dimensions were within a mm or so of the design, which meant cabinets etc all fitted exactly. FWIW, we have no energy bills at all. The only bill we have is the Council Tax, and that's partially offset by the ~£1000 a year we get paid for the excess energy we export. We wanted a house for our retirement that had no bills, and we've got one. Finally, let's compare values and see how they stack up. I agree that the zero energy bills means sod all to the average buyer, but we did fit the house out internally to a fair standard, with solid oak joinery everywhere, even the skirtings and architrave, solid oak stairs, solid oak fronted kitchen units, Silestone worktops and kitchen/dining room internal window cills, toys like comfort cooling in every room, an integrated boiling water tap etc, massive shower, solid oak bathroom furniture, etc, etc. Build cost was probably on the high side of average for most self-builders, based on costs we've shared on here, at £1380/m², including the cost of the insulated and lined garage, with electric door etc. The plot cost £90k, the ground works (not including the house foundation) cost £56k, the borehole for water cost £8k, the electricity connection cost £3.4k. The total build cost came in at £270k and the market valuation last year was between £330k and 345k. Being a passive house reduced the valuation by 5%, according to our valuer, because in his words, he felt that "an eco house is in a niche market".

Having done 6 self builds over the years, my experience is that jealousy is the main driver of such negativity. It's very easy for people to discount all of the stress and hard work involved because all they see at the end of the day is you living in a wonderful new home. The fact that they could have done the same if they were so motivated, or the fact they are going on four holidays a year etc instead, doesn't get factored into their comments.

Mass building is a different game to self building. Yes you want to build cheap for maximum profit. You also have the economy of scale on your side. But building cheap is NOT building good. It's at best building adequate. Most people accept it simply because most people don't know better. It amazes me when someone buys an old house with an EPC F and then complain about the heating bills. Why don't they do a bit of research about the biggest purchase in their life, yet they would not buy anything other than an A+++ refrigerator? If you think an epc of C is good for a new house, think again. I am aiming for an A and that should be where the mass builders are aiming now? I have a suspicion that eventually people will wake up to the EPC and it's implications, and as a resuilt older poor houses will become worth less. That is starting already as in Scotland you can no longer rent out a house with an EPC F so instantly those are no longer of interest to landlords so reduced demand. Most self builders do so because they want something better than a mass builder's average house and self build is the only way to lavish the care and attention needed. In this argument neither side is going to be changed. The mass builder will carry on churning out cheap adequate houses and the mass public will keep buying them, and the self builder will still strive for something a lot better.

@swisscheese, for your floor tiles try the "20 yr old / first house /not got a pot to pi$$ in method". Worked for me and still looks good after 30 years thanks to a liberal application of Thompson's at the time: You will need the side of an old faux woodgrain wardrobe to make the mould and a can of WD40! A friendly neighbour helps too!

Hi all, I self build 20 years ago in Milton Keynes in the glorious days when the Commission for New Towns were knocking out building plots left, right and centre. The house has been a great family home but having read about Passivhaus and visited one, I know have itchy feet to build a Passivhaus all over again in a more rural setting. Following up on a couple of leads at the moment but realise this is going to be a long game. The forum is a great source of information and inspiration particularly as the building technology has moved on so much since I last self built.

Set your DPC height to save you ££££ Plots are not equal. some are pigs, pigs have to be made into bacon. Generally, you want DPC to be as high as the planners will let you. Not all planners will be interested, mainly they will put condition on the planning where you have to tell them slab height. MEasure it up accurate and then add 2 bricks and send it in. We havent yet had them come back and question it (they have no clue how to measure it anyway) and it means you have 2.55 ceilings and a higher roof if need be. Dont tell them i told you. 1 or worse 2 bricks difference in DPC can be a 5 figure sum in groundworks and muck away depending on size of build. Tricks we have done in past, raise DPC by 3 bricks and dropp pitch of roof to keep ridge height with next door. £40000 saved.

Self built couple homes, now full time developer for last 10 years. Only build to sell never build for others as I am greedy about profit! Learnt a lot over the years in the trade, feel free to ask questions you may not get an answer you like but it will be honest. First tip. If you are using timber frame and not completing your build withing 4 months you are throwing £10000's down the drain for no reason. I've yet to see a case for small builds (less than 5 on a site) where there is a business case for anything other than block brick or block render. cheers!

Fly fishing for example

I have the original kitchen, a very nasty, cheap one that is now over 30 years old. When I had the place valued a few years back, the estate agents said she liked the kitchen units as there 'were in vogue'. I just bought some cheap melamine paint and some gloss roller from Poundland. Estate agents talk absolute bollocks, they really do. They could not value a house if it was made from pound coins. Why I nipped in. We usually drive Architects away, but we are working our way UP the food chain today

I was at a tyre centre at Stoke Mandeville back in the late 80's. I funny little, familiar look fellow turned up to get an inner tube fitted to his wheel barrow tyre. It was Derek Edward Trotter, better known as David Jason. I wonder if he still has that same barrow. He had the same car as me once, we got them fixed at the same garage.

Plus 1

I’ve seen those around the Bazaars Lizzie and always been interested - until I heard the price! But if they work (and I guess, more importantly, how long they work for) then they look like a great solution to the hard water problem. I’m surprised that no one has commented on the technology so far... Anyone? I’m on tenterhooks waiting for your feedback in a couple of months.

This is literally the only bloody thing I understood from this whole thread.....!!!!!! Can I borrow that spoon to slap my eyeballs out?

Depends what's the contract states..... It should be something that is expressly agreed. One of my contractors tried to make me responsible for a telehandler to offload materials and I simply pointed to the contract which was silent on offloading - so supply and install had to be interpreted to include everything necessary to achieve the installation, including the offloading and placing the materials in place for installation

We also had a fare amount of spoil to remove 450 off the whole site 1.8 footings 750 tons of muck away 8K I raised the slab by 2 course Due to the Architecht trying to match my Dpc Height to the neighbours 200 year old Cottage

How can a 100 to 200mm difference in DPM level make a difference that is close to the cost of our whole house, inc insulation and airtightness? I just don't get it, personally, and don't see where the planning officer, or planning policy, has any bearing at all on this for a typical solo plot, such as a self-builder might be interested in. We had probably a worst case where levels were both critical and cost a lot of money. This is a photo of our plot on the day we finally started doing the ground works (which excluded the foundations, as they were a part of a the passive package from our main contractor): To the extreme right of that photo, under the overgrown hedge and to the right of the reflective marker, there is a mill stream, that runs through the whole village, rising from springs around 1/2 a mile away, and becoming a fairly large river about a mile or so downstream, where it joins the river Nadder. The Environment Agency demanded a flood risk survey (understandable, given recent major floods around the country) but rather than pay the demanded £4,500 from the only flood risk surveyors the local EA office would accept, I chose to do my own, using flood risk data obtained, free of charge, from the EA, by a mix of using their publicly available data and making an FoI request for more data (taxpayers pay for this, so are entitled to see it). What was clear was that there were going to be levels for certain areas that were mandated by current EA policy (nothing to do with planning, other than PPG25 placing an obligation on the EA to make a determination, in effect). The vehicle parking area and garage finished floor had to be a minimum of 83.1m AOD. There was no ability to negotiate on this at all, as this was the stipulated level above the 1 in 100 year flood event and everyone, from central government to insurance companies were taking heed of it. Furthermore, the EA stipulated that the finished floor level inside the house must be no lower than 83.5m AOD, and this level was, of course, only aout 13 to 14mm above our DPM level (the DPM being level with the top of the slab, as mandated by the build system chosen). The height of the DPM above the external ground level is determined by a few factors. Firstly there is statute law that sets the height of the DPM relative to the outside ground level, in the form of the Building Act 1984, with amendments. This law also stipulates elements that have made their way into Approved Documents (which are not law, but guidance) and these provide some clarification on how the law may be complied with. There are some potential conflicts that need careful work-arounds, as the law is very badly worded, especially the most recent amendments. For example, whilst stipulating the distance external levels have to be below DPM, the same law later stipulates a near level threshold for wheelchair access, which means being a bit canny and leaving a tiny vertical slot between the ramped entrance (in our case the rear door) and the house. The only thing planning were interested in was the ridge height, a common restriction, I understand. So, tying all the legal requirements together, we had to have a drive that was no more than 400mm lower than the house finished floor level, we had to have an external level around the house that was greater than or equal to 150mm (the required separation from the DPM to external level). Getting to the crux of the point being wildly exaggerated here, we had to level our site a lot, this is what it looked like just before the foundation team arrived, after all the ground works had been completed: We removed around 900 tonnes of soil and mixed surface waste by this point, and still had to remove a further 200 tonnes to get the drive and garden levels right. The total cost of all the earth removal, excluding the cost of the retaining wall, the putting in of service ducts and pipes, the installation of the sewage treatment plant etc is separately itemised on our ground works invoice. We dug down around 2.5 metres to get the site level, and got stung for the highest rate of landfill tax for the top layer, as it was classified as mixed waste, because of all the trees, shrubs etc in it. Even so, the total ex-VAT cost of lowering this site by 2.5m came to £11,170.80. Had we needed to take the site down by another 200mm, I doubt it would have added more than £1000 at the very most to the cost. So, how do you get a "saving" of £40,000 by not removing 200mm of soil from a typical self build site? That's 3.5 times the cost of our entire cost to remove 2.5m depth of soil! Frankly I just don't believe this figure, and think it is either made up, or refers to a multiple house development site, not a typical self-build plot.

Well Fredd we went the frame route because I wanted it to be different from my previous brick and block house (which we had built for us 30 years ago). I wanted to be environmentally light, I wanted to leave nothing but footprints if you see what I mean. For me the choices were a frame package or a full package house from one of the prefab suppliers. We chose the frame as I am not really the sort of person to be in the prefab machine, far too independent and maybe even eclectic. We chose our frame supplier after much consideration and with due regard to all their excellent reviews. I had favoured another frame company but they did not do the frame and slab package and I was told that was the best way to go then no issues with one company blaming another if it didnt fit together. Hey ho! I think we had a really unfortunate experience with our frame and slab and as has been said earlier rookies on the job and the company has now sorted those issues going forward. Too late for us but if lessons learnt and no one else has the same problems then thats something. So we have sorted our issues and moved on. I have the best carpenter in the world and without him I do not know where we would have ended up. He is a magician with wood and has rectified problems where required and disguised cosmetic issues with it not being straight. Leaving aside the nightmare of frame/slab (which impacted on so much else) other than my leaking Internorm sliders I am thrilled to bits with my house. I am totally happy with my choice of timber frame construction. The insulation and airtightness are fantastic, it is so warm and we are not even moved in yet. I love my house aleady and wouldnt change my method of construction although I would have wished for a few less problems along the way. Thats not the scientific builder response that you may have been hoping for but it is my genuine from the heart feeling about my lovely wooden house I leave the technical stuff to all the wonderfully helpful and knowledgeable chaps on this forum who have been so generous with their time and advice to this rookie!

Less of this get thee behind me Satan! Let's aim for a religious conversion I say!

Quite.

If I can give some advice, it would be don't crash into your new neighbour's car before you've even completed on the house.

Any of the houses that we done that had block and beam floor I hated them. If a suspended floor was the only way out then I would go for a full concrete slab.

@Fredd cat/pigeons springs to mind? @PeterStarck's house. Timber frame with circa 16" thick icynene filled walls. Throughout his winter build he had a 2 or 3kW heater on occasionally.....for the whole house! I've been in plenty of new builds and his and know where I'd rather live. Have you shared your views on MVHR yet?

Do Travis sell popcorn? I'm going to need FIBCs of it for this thread.

Did MBC do your screed???

Nope. Wrong again. Standard Build here, trench fill with medium weight block and then EPS infill ground slab. Poured slab in a single day (10 cuM) at 11:30am, bull floated only as used self compacting flowing concrete and by 4pm we had done and levelled 94sqm of concrete. With the exception of a piece about 20cm long to the side of an existing internal wall which we had to float from one side via an existing doorway, the slab is +/- 3mm on level across the whole of a 22m x 4.5m L shaped slab. Total difference in cost from cheap as $h!t C25 to flowing was £24 per cube so an additional £240. No power float needed, and no hassle. And that was by me, my brickie and a labourer so not a skilled team. So you can get level, just sounds like you are employing the wrong team....

you have hit the nail bang on the head here stoner. ive yet to do a build where there havent been compaints/hassle. it just goes with the territory. Crack on and be helpful where you can, delivery lorries are rarely there more than 20 mins. I only give notice where i will be preventing someone getting out when say concrete pump will be there for a couple hours. or a crane. if they kick off then (and ive had many) I just tell them to call the police. Not yet had the police turn up, have had council on phone though. explained the issue. notice given. no other way to do it. complainer being deliberately awkward and no wont move until its done which will be a matter of hours.

@Hecateh, don't. Just don't Head up shoulders back, look them in the eye , face them down. Don't make yourself an easy target. (And then have a weep in private) What you are doing is perfectly reasonable and to be expected in a house build. This isn't to everyone's taste, but just have a listen

Nail on the head Ian I think I’ll hold back getting my new car till the build is finished

LMAO. That nails it describing the majority of us on this forum Perhaps though add; mad, crazy, poorer, tired, sleep deprived, stressed. Ooooh and I built timber frame then added a cavity, concrete blocks and render. That means I almost built it twice. I'm clearly fully paid up :). Oh hang on "ecocentric" I thought you'd typed "eccentric".

Welcome Fredd, your opening statement is well and truely above my pay grade so i cant comment on that.... however i am sure it will provoke some vigorous debate. I use this forum as a life line of useful information and it is a fantastic resource and i am very greatful for all contributions, both relevant and non relevant to me. I also feel that as long as one joins with a good will towards the fundamental ethos that the forum then it really does not matter where you come from or what your personal stance is. There are many opinions that i struggle to find common ground with but it all helps me to become more educated beyond my own limited knowledge. I look forward to following your input and hope we can all keep cool heads.

But also that £1000 per sq metre will then have the developer's profit added onto it before the house comes into the hands of the end user. That final figure would be a better comparison. Otherwise it's like comparing the price that Tesco pays it's suppliers with what they charge to the retail customer. Most self builders are looking more beyond the Waitrose end of the market, too, and prefer free range to battery farmed.

I suspect that even with fairly cheap kitchen, windows, etc, the average self-builder will struggle to get near this. You have the benefit of good contacts and, I assume, work with people who know what you want and how you work, so it's all very efficient. Makes a world of difference compared to trying to find trades as a self-builder. At the least, I'm sure most trades build in a "self-builder" margin when pricing jobs. On average, you also get prices on materials that the average self-builder will struggle to get anywhere near. Add in the better spec that a lot of self-builders try for and it adds up quickly.

So, a non-self builder joins a self-build group. Excellent I say! Bring it on - about self-building, that is.

@Hecateh feel for you and you have to live there too! We have/had tolerant neighbours not too many complaints save for the guy we bought the land from. It is his private drive we have to get down and to be fair he was ok first off but our groundworkers were a nightmare chewed up his verges left mud on the drive messed up his field where we had permission to put our spoil, ripped out his hedge ‘in error’ chewed up his newly laid lawn, damaged a beautiful tpo’d yew tree, I could go on. Last year before we realised the true extent and incomptetence we paid thousands to them to clean up and rectify the -as we were told- ‘unavoidable’ mess and then we found they had just made it worse in their attempts to put right their mess at our expense. We now have a somewhat tetchy neighbour and face a bill of many more thousands to get it all sorted.....will we get any money back from groundworks company who knows.... No moral to this story other than we tried our utmost to be good neighbours and it has not worked through no fault of ours, we employed ‘reputable’ local groudworks company had professional project management overseeing but the buck is stopping finally at our door. I find myself dodging our soon to be next door neighbour as I cant face it any more. Its not his fault really I would probably not have been as patient but with all the other many problems with the build the last thing I want to face every day is a griping neighbour. You have done your best and can do no more. They are fortunate to have a considerate builder/neighbour. Probably some deep seated resentment of your build at the bottom of it. Chin up! xx

If you’re going down this route I would advise getting some test panels built in the different bonds by your brickie & having a good look. What Ive found with certain metric bricks is that the relative proportions of a stretcher (full brick) to a header (half brick) can give an unsatisfactory effect in Flemish bond,compared to imperials.

I’ve a similar problem, I’m solving it with a Fibaro home centre 2 setup. More on this on the next few weeks as I start getting it set up.

I think I'll leave the services side fo things to professionals... I don't fancy turning on the tap one day and getting electrocuted or gassed! It's awfully sad isn't it @Onoff? I wish it was just clothes and tat, she literally didn't thrown ANYTHING away from 2001 until I forced her to move out in 2014.. every newspaper, every letter, every magazine, every food container ever emptied and washed was kept... just in case.... if a supermarket was selling something at 50% off she would buy 20 of said item, even if she didn't need it... it would be stored... just in case... everything wood was brought back to the house and stored in the front room... just in case she needed wood for the fireplace. So far no 'body fluids' though so i really feel for you there :-( Tackle it now! One thing I said to Mother when I demanded control of the house was I didn't want to one day be not only dealing with losing her but also having to empty my childhood home of ruined belongings.... I doubt it has stopped her hoarding (she wont let me in her flat) but it convinced her to hand the house over. My one joy is the refuse collection guys, they are utter DARLINGS, they spotted me outside the house at the beginning of January putting black bags into our car. After asking me what was going on I said I was clearing the house out and had another 100 bags inside the house and they all jumped up, ran in and grabbed the lot for the truck!! Now every week I put out between 100 and 200 black bags on my drive and they are more than happy to trash the lot... I do however furnish them with boxes of biscuits!