Nickfromwales

Three ‘words’ eh? ? You must have had a few ?

Thats the reason with every heat pump install I’ll spec and fit some form of injecting grid electricity, whether it be Willis or direct immersion or an e-prefix SA. @joe90 how warm is the place on just the one 3kW immersion? I take it you have to run it for a good while to get up to temp, eg no on / off-ability to speak of?

Depends where you were Saturday night

As @Barney12 and I have just discovered, with the Apollo GEM in this instance, not very well at all . As most PV diverters 'sniff' for the constant ( but variable ) flow of current, the SAPV was far more compliant with such external sensing. The UniQ setup is not that compatible IMO with the pulsed bursts of energy it initially requires to 'defrost' the PCM, so a little more thought is required. I've yet to look properly at this, what with just about now getting to grips with the feasibility / functionality side of the SA itself first, so there are yet still some unanswered questions that I have to ask to the various diversion controller manufacturers. I tried to speak to the tech guy from Apollo but he had such a strong French accent and not the greatest of English I really struggled to convey questions ( with my welsh accent ) and get the answers. Got repeatedly told how amazing and diverse it was, but I left that conversation with probably more confusion than when I started it TBH. The Mi Energy range of products will be my next port of call, so bear with me and I'll ( attempt ) to update here accordingly, but as you mention Dave, it ( the SA Controller ) would be far better and more universally integrated if it had a constant, albeit variable, flow of current at all times. I visited SA HQ on the 25th of this month and had a great opportunity to speak with Stuart Cunningham ( Training and Installations Manager ), Will Howell ( Production Manager ), and Trevor Cross ( UK Sales Director ) in their respective domains. Very interesting and informative, and demonstrates the huge mountain they've climbed to get this product to market. As a result of said visit, I have been told that other Qontrollers will make it to the market place as R&D allows, but obviously nothing will be released until its ready and proven fit for purpose. @JSHarris, Immersion on / SoC and other indicators / more comprehensive displays etc are already in the mix Please don't ask anything on that subject folks, as thats all I've been told. The SA Controller has user definable settings, and one parameter is the depth of discharge where reheat will be initiated ( call for heat aka demand ). This can be set to 50% depleted, or 90% depleted so a range of differing ways to stave off the issues with the 'defrost' cycle eg set up and size accordingly so the unit never gets so excessively discharged. Sizing accordingly is everything with the units, so beware that its almost always necessary to get a designer or heating engineer to do these calculations for you, either that or be scrooge-like with your DHW consumption and phase your energy usage to be in line with PV generation / other low cost heat input etc. Horses for courses there. The incremental price increases per unit, after you've accepted the initial 'hit', are quite reasonable and I always demonstrate the cost uplift to go to the next size unit which many feel is 'worth the money'. I'm an advocate of sizing for the worst case and to have room for storage of all but 100% of any surplus energy, so thats always my recommendation. For eg to uplift from a size 9 unit, in an eHw, to a size 12 unit is an uplift of only £300+vat. Thats a no-brainer AFAIC, given PV production isn't guaranteed every day, so bit of surplus storage is a good idea for when it is. Sizing to get through 24hrs without needing grid top-up / boost is the aim IMO.

The difference between the two units are simple. The early units didn’t get an immersion heater as such. The early development version ( the SAPV ) was just a closed cell with the only means of importing heat to the PCM being dealt with via the heat exchanger. Basically that means you need to heat water outside the cell and then send the heat backwards through the same heat exchanger that is then, in turn, used to export heat to DHW. The heat is produced by a very small Willis type inline water heater which has a pump and a flow switch. The pump speed regulates the flow so when the PCM is at or near frozen it runs slower to send the correct flow temp to the PCM. As the PCM heats through the pump return increases so the pump speed increases to pass water through the Willis heater quicker to maintain the correct flow temp. If the pump or flow is out of sync for whatever reason the Wilis can boil like a kettle and therefore the Willis OH ( overheat ) stat operates. As that’s seen as a terminal failure it requires manual resetting. In the newer, far far simplified UniQ range the immersion heater actually resides in the base of the cell, internally, and is surrounded by the PCM in the same way as the heat exchanger is eg 100% immersed / encapsulated. No need for pumps / Willis heaters / flow switches / PHE / and no need for all the inter-connective pipework necessary to convey ‘wet’ heat. As the SAPV is indirectly heating the PCM it can use variable flow & temp ( variable but continuous current ) to input a continuous flow of heat energy. The ‘complication’ that SA had to overcome with the SA UniQ unit is; as it has the immersion direct into the PCM it has the ability to immediately overheat the surrounding PCM which would destroy it. The ‘melt’ characteristic of the PCM doesn’t deal very well with intense / accuse heat energy being introduced from just one concentrated area ( that the contact surface of the encapsulated immersion achieves ). ( For info, the PCM can be destroyed by putting too high a temperature into it. Basically you can cook and kill it with no possibility of recovery. This is why there is the need for modulated flow and heat control with the SAPV. A bit bit like you wouldn’t use a blow lamp to defrost the Xmas turkey as you’d burn and ruin the outside but the inside would still be frozen solid ). Therefore the UniQ Qontroller has a programmed pulsed output which is used to gently heat and melt the immediately surrounding PCM around the immersion. It pulses on every minute or so iirc and injects heat in chunks. When the lower thermistor registers heat the Qontroller ( I think ) then let’s rip with full bore heat input. So, every time you fully discharge an UniQ unit it will go back to what I call the ‘defrost cycle’ as described ( so is not a one time first switched on event, it’s an every heavy discharge > reheat event ). The UniQ immersion also has an overheat stat, so terminal OH ( failure of the electronics to control the heat input for any reason ) would cause that to trip and isolate the immersion for safety. The UniQ range with an ‘e’ prefix ( eg 'eDual' ) have an immersion and are primarily intended to be heated by electricity. Units without the prefix ( eg 'Dual' ) do not have an immersion and are to be heated indirectly ( by a boiler or ST / high temp ASHP etc ). Now, pay attention folks..... An UniQ +I ( eg 'Dual+I' ) has an immersion. This unit is meant to be heated indirectly ONLY but you can ( say if the boiler / other goes tits up ) go and then heat it TEMPORARILY with the immersion in the same way you can with an UVC for eg. You should not heat that unit indirectly and with the immersion simultaneously, so basically if you have solar PV available during the day and your boiler is running you shouldn't use the PV to fortify the boiler flow, eg it should be one or the other. That would require a changeover arrangement where excess pv injection then disconnected the boiler call for heat ( demand ) signal temporarily and accordingly. Oh, and there’s other configurations available too, but my thumb hurts now. If you think that’s a lot to remember then feel my pain. I’ve forgotten my kids names since working through the chuffing manual ?

Shame, I thought you’d stumbled onto a good guy there. ?

...What? Taking the broom out? How big is this broom ?

Was in SA HQ yesterday. If my flight was an hour later I was going to get a taxi to yours and vent that poxy ST array. Lol.

I’ve not long bought a new 18v makita brushless angle grinder Get your ass down the M4 and I’ll sort it out lunchtime Saturday ? I’ll even get a new blade, plus I’ll do it for half price ??? “mates rates”.

They could have run the boiler condensate into a combination branch off a combination trap and the boiler ( as it’s doing DHW ) would have constantly wet the throat of the trap. Muppets. They could have used this one and run the 21.5mm boiler condensate pipe to that little branch. So easily avoided if they actually gave a feck.

I’ll come and give you a hand. We’ll bang that out in 2 weeks. ??

This forum is all about defeating, and hopefully educating the dinosaurs.

The information is near infinite. Take a look at the 18th book, and if you can memorise that you get a gold star off me The Highway Code is a wee little booklet by comparison. The purpose of the book is to demonstrate that you can find the answers in order to arrive at the correct conclusion. It’s the reason that astronauts still have a few manuals on board the shuttle eg there’s too much info and not enough grey matter. They’re also just electricians not brain surgeons so as the stakes are different so are the guidelines.

In an isolator + MCB CU, where all the other circuits are RCBO’s , is SWA not required to take unprotected services through a domestic dwelling? Just recall seeing a spark take a SWA through to a lighting control system where the box of tricks was sporting RCD + multiples of 2a MCB’s, but then obviously the spark couldn’t take an RCBO to an RCD so therefore had an unprotected cct traversing the property. I need to read more of that bloody expensive book ☝️

The systems / schemes exist for recourse. If you’ve sat the exams and got your quals then you’re then in the lions den. Scenario 1) Arthur Clue from down the pub fits your new fuseboard for £80 “ ‘cos it’s only ‘alf a days work at most mukka”, and leaves. That evening there’s an electrical fire caused by his shitty work, and somebody loses their life. Scenario 2) I sit my quals and go through my fast track. People scoff at how easy it was to sit, and anyhoo I pass with flying colours. I got the above job and fitted the new fuseboard. I did the tests and certified the job to my satisfaction. Customers happy with the bit of paper and the receipt. They paid much more but got the job done correctly. That evening there’s an electrical fire caused by my work, and somebody loses their life. In court arthur and I stand side by side for sentencing. The judge looks at him and deems him to not know any better, and more importantly that he wouldnt be in a position to grasp fully the repercussions of his actions. He gets a huge fine, and maybe a suspended sentence. The judge looks at me. I should know better and should have done the job according to the training I’ve received, and the knowledge I had at my disposal which should have allowed me to undertake that work to a good standard. I had the book, but I didn’t read it, and that caused the job to fail. As a qualified and competent person, I would then be sent straight to prison for manslaughter. The schemes exist to try to achieve a basic level of workmanship and to give installers the tools required to do the job properly. It’s just the assholes that don’t go by the book that cause the problem. The cash in hand posse are just as guilty as the person employing them imo. Give me a registered installer any day, fast tracked or not, and let’s be fully aware that that test is a PART of the process not all of it, as in I have to be inspected on site in a live install, carrying out a full test and certification instance, plus I must stand in front of examiners and answer questions whilst I wire some basic circuits in front of them in a live working training centre. No training, no qualification = no comebacks and no legal route for recourse for the person employing them. Quals = onus, liability, accountability and a ticket to jail if you fcuk anything up. Its about the individual NOT the scheme

Back to the STROMA thread I go.......?

If its trunked then it'll have the additional degree of mechanical protection plus the PVC/PVC so should be fine. Other than that it should ( IIRC ) be in SWA if run integrally?

Yup. There are a couple of ( tidy ) companies about that offer such services. Another I've used is called Plastic Surgeon, ( and no, no to get my man-tits reduced before you say it @PeterW ). They do some fantastic work and some of the repairs you literally have to see to believe. Deffo get the chip done @Hecateh as it'll bug the shit out of you otherwise.

I was just about to say that One 32a / 4mm2 cable and split them locally.

As its for 2x SA's, then remember they're 2800w not 3000w

Yup, and that means you can choose an inverter that stops anything more than the basic threshold of export that the DNO will allow, therfore you can do away with the expensive 3 phase incoming cable. They will ask to witness functionality of the export limitation function, and may charge for this service. Find out which is the lesser of the two evils ( which is the more expensive solution eg 3 phase will have serious impact on how you inject PV into the 3 separate phases and then how you consume equally across them which can be a PITA ), a more expensive inverter for one. However; If you have had a system designed that will need 3 phase for export then something is very wrong. You should be storing everything you produce, so if you've an ASHP then ideally you'd be wanting to storing the excess into a battery storage system to run the ASHP at night ( + cover the base loads in the house from plug-in devices ) and THEN dump any excess into DHW. A Sunamp will store DHW incredibly efficiently but with slightly higher capital expenditure vs a wet UVC. Benefit with SA is no G3 install and nearly zero ongoing maintenance / service requirements. With an UVC you'll spend £1000 every 10 years on inspections alone, ( estimate if you dont have a gas boiler ergo you cant have the gas services and the UVC serviced by the same guy at the same time = single less cost-effective visit to inspect the UVC ) and also there are no complex and expensive controls / valves / discharge pipes from a SA. They also take up about 3 times less physical space vs a traditional cylinder of equal capacity. First question has to be about fabric, because if you've built a standard B regs UK build then I'd be doing a lot of sums before even thinking about an ASHP . Ok, but again, if thats just for appearances you can further reduce costs there by going to cheaper, lower output panels and therefore further remove the export / wasted energy aspect. You don't want to pay for an overly expensive system that exports what youve just paid to generate

Most runs I’ve seen have been segregated, but they have mostly been retro fits. Just wondering if EMF off the A/C side ( constant ) would affect the D/C side.

You'll have to scrape back where the removed tile is evident, as there will be no gap for the new adhesive.

How the other half live

That been confirmed then ? Wasn’t how I read it tbh but I’m not the sharpest tack ? There are shallow basin wastes with integral waterless valves ( which could screw onto a 40x32mm adapter if that’s a 40mm trap that is ) and then join the waste to the trap with a flexi connector. No glueing etc and easy, permanent ‘one trap’ fix. https://www.tapwarehouse.com/product/uniwaste for eg.