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This isn't directed at you only Barney as I disagree with all this 'market' talk but I am not smart enough to deal with everything. But what you have just described about buyers is a good example cognitive bias. If you've just spunked your life's earning on a pile of baked clay and firewood, sat on a postage stamp of clay of course you'll tell a stranger you're over the moon. Most people could not deal with the thought that they're absolutely freakin' nuts to do so. Unfortunately only the certifiably nuts would be able to contemplate that. There is no housing 'market' in this country. Its a political construct from planning downwards, an absolute scam and at sad indication of the country and how it treats its people. This forum (and others similar) are usually populated by men of a certain age often with experience of the housing dis-industry. None of which is a reflection on the increasing difficulties faced by millions of people who just happen to have been born later than others or not received some demographic gift. Its rotten to the core.

No! Bit of an incident in the pub tonight - some strange person threw a bottle of Omega 3 pills at me Luckily I ducked and my injuries were only Super Fish Oil

Crikey this is all getting rather depressing. I think ill go back to the pub and have another pint, discuss pointless nonsense and laugh at the local farmer who when presented with some free left over roast potatoes from the evening food service said "Ere these teddies has got grass on em!" (They had a sprinkling of Rosemary!) (Teddies is a Devon term for potatoes!) (for clarification: that was an attempt at humour to lighten the mood! ) Yours Aspiring Eccentric (and ever so slightly odd)

Let me dart the last 2 kids then I'll come back to this

The analogy to cars is an interesting one. 30 years ago, reliability (and in many cases build quality) of cars was very poor. Automation and strict quality control have improved cars, and consequently owner experience and satisfaction many times over.. Is the building industry in the same position? Is a far higher degree of factory prefabrication the answer (pre insulated panels / cassettes, modular house)? We embarked on our first self build after going to see two 'starter' homes newly built by a large developer. I remember going into the first and asking where the lounge was (staircase running up one wall). I remember stretching my arms and being able to span the width of the room! The next house up was several thousand more, and was a bit better proportioned, but not enough to make me buy. In the end, I built a 3 bedroom bungalow which had 50% more floor space than the larger of the two houses we had looked at, for the same price as we would have paid for the larger developer house. Having built our own, and seen what we could do with our limited resources, we didn't consider a developer built house until much later in life, when we bought a house from a small developer (building 6 houses). I bitterly regret that purchase as although the house itself worked reasonably well in terms of space, it was poorly put together and poorly finished. It was the lack of quality control (over the build process) that made me decide that we would only ever self build in the future.

This is a really interesting discussion with a lot of experience on both sides. Hence plenty of anecdotes to back up points either way- which is natural, given the huge number of houses that are out there. It seems to me that passive houses which are either built or specced wrongly are entirely possible, but perhaps the biggest danger is that the occupants do not understand the house and equipment like MVHR. However, it also seems likely to me that such people are unlikely to be on this forum and participating in this discussion, so what we do have is people who have thoroughly researched their projects and feel defensive of the concept as a whole.

Acme Mk1 patented pallet dismantling gadget: Left hand end of 8 by 2 is against a solid wall. Place pallet plank against 8 by 2. Hit pallet cross member with FBH And it comes apart with no drama.

One of the things you accumulate during a self build is pallets. Everything comes on a pallet. Some good, some bad, some ugly, some not even worthy of firewood. One of the things our plot needs is a shed. Somewhere to put the lawnmower, strimmer, garden tools etc should we ever find a buyer and move into the static caravan. I don't have any spare money to buy a ready made shed, not that I think much of the way most sheds are made anyway. So a while back I said to SWMBO "I am going to make a shed out of those pallets" The reply was not exactly "oh that's a good idea dear" Some (most?) pallets are not fit for making stuff. But I have rather a lot of these that all my wood fibre board came on. When dismantled they each yield four 6ft long 5" wide planks and they dismantle relatively easily. So these planks will clad 3 of the walls of the shed. So lets start. First you need a base for it to sit on. Well I have the three large pallets that my windows arrived on. Quite substantial and put together will make a base 9ft by 7ft, so big enough just for a garden tool shed. Lay them on the ground with the corners and ends of the members of the pallets supported on concrete blocks. To support the mid span, drive some stakes in as far as I can then fic these to the middle of the pallets. Not only does that give extra support, but it anchors it all down for when the wind blows. Of course I forgot to take a picture of just the base, so here is the base and the back wall. The observant will notice the base is slatted with big gaps. The gaps are not even enough to fill in to make it a solid floor. So the floor will be over sheeted with OSB using the pallets as the "frame" and the OSB as the finished floor surface. Today I built and added the first end wall. So one other end wall will be made from the final pallets (still to be dismantled) The front will then be clad with some different wood, a load of 6" X 1" planks that have been used as temporary bracing during the build. the front will incorporate two windows and a door. The roof (probably the only bit I will have to buy) will be corrugated bituminous roofing that I used previously for my wood shed. This is a fill in job, low priority, but fun (more fiun than sanding and re varnishing the windows of the old house)

Hi Guys, I have been busy busy with the build and have been trying to arrange a million and one things. So as it stands we are planning all our bathroom and other plumbing arrangements. We have been talking to a plumber, who was recommended but it seems the idea of an informed client isn't something he is ever really used to dealing with. Even at that i dont know much i'm just asking some questions he obviously has never been asked. So at the moment we are looking at the following setup. 4kw PV array with immersion diverter 12kw stove with 2kw to room the rest to back boiler 9kw ASHP I was humming and haa-ing over the ASHP but i think i'll just go for it and try to make the best use out of it. Told the plumber i was in 2 minds about the ASHP but could he do all the work so that i could hook it up down the line if required. He said fine but would need to do some "checks" to make sure we could heat the house with just PV/Immersion/Stove. He phoned back a few days later, said he had spoken to "Plumbing Merchant" (who also sells ASHPs) and they said i would definately need an ASHP as "People only use PV for washing machines and tumble dryers" and "stoves are not compatible with UFH" He told me this was the opinion of the Plumbing merchant. I asked why was a stove not compatible, he said because of the temp diff between stove and UFH, i asked was there not a mixer etc to bring the water temp down he said yes we could reduce the temp. I then asked another few questions and we got to, "if you want to go with a TS you need to make sure you keep the temp of it at 60 degrees" i asked why, he said to ensure you could have a good amount of showers. I mentioned in the in-line water heater, he asked me to send him some details so he could google it. He couldn't tell me which was the best setup. Buffer/UVC/TS etc. So i pretty much got off the phone thinking i would need to design the system i want myself and get the plumber to just to the work. Anyway, what i was thinking was i could give it a stab and hopefully the kind plumbing brains on here could tell me its shite and how to really do it! Basic design We shower and bath kids in the evenings. I would have the odd morning shower after gym but its only one a fairly short. I was thinking 500L TS as i will have heat coming from stove and ASHP Have heat coming off the PV during the day, say at 4pm if the tank temp is low fire up the ASHP to bring it up to temp Have the in-line heater to boost if the temp drops On the really cold winter evenings we would likely be lighting the stove which could bump up the tank temp and help to run the UFH over-night etc. Not 100% as to when to turn on the ASHP in the shoulder months for UFH to make sure we are warm in the mornings. Likely have it coming on at say 6ish to get the house warmed up a bit. Looking to have the TS in the attic right at the chimney breast to take the input from the stove, and be just above the ensuite and close to the main bathroom. Guest en-suite will be out of the way a bit but not frequently used to have to accept it will be a bit of a dead leg. Was thinking of running the downstairs shower/wc with under counter instant water heaters and same for kitchen/utility? Not sure if thats a good idea or just a waste of money, but wouldn't like the after dinner clean up to take all the shower hot water. Do you think i should be using a buffer tank in this setup? Something a bit closer to the ASHP? say if the TS is in the attic, will i need some kind of pump to get water from the ASHP up to the TS? Anyway this is really all i can think off for now. Hopefully enough to get started. Thanks Damian

Plumbers run by date stamped 24 hr digital clocks if that is the case

we could throw in some warning points for dragging the thread off topic? What ya think Nick?

Tres bien, Rodney.

In my personal opinion that is a right and that is something that lies with the government. None of this shoulder shrugging hand wringing about not interfering in the market despite all the other govt interference that freaks it up. Housebuilding is a local service not an international. they should be knocking up houses everywhere they are needed so taxpayers can lead happy productive lives not farmed in worse conditions than livestock for the benefit of landowners.

It was the ease of self install that swung it for me with the Conder If you are paying someone to install it then it makes little difference, but with the Biopure, it has to be held upright while you pour concrete and wait for it to set. Just a tip, of you chose that one, the best price I could get for it was from Travis Perkins. Mine was the ASP06 but as far as I can tell they are the same size physically but the 8 has a bigger blower pump (there may be other internal differences)

One further observation I would like to make. Two reasons for loss of innovation and trying out ideas are imo that: 1 - Local and regional developers have been decimated. There are not developers building say between 25 and 500 houses per year. There are some left, but it is tough. The site I sold is for about 100 houses. I would eventually have found someone to buy a 50 plot site, but much below that and it cannot support the sales / marketing infrastructure needed by a large developer. There are not many developers out there able to take on a normal site (ie one without a killer benefit such as getting it nearly free or getting very high prices) of say 10-40 plots and having a profitable "normal" project with "normal" houses on it. By "normal" I mean houses of perhaps 900->1800 sqft. Such builders would be able to do trial innovation in collaboration with eg small research organisations, or to be places where eccentric inventors could find space to make a living as well as indulging their imaginations around the edges. More variety would be an additional benefit. If they are acre plots with gin palaces that sell at 1m each that has more leeway, but it is like the tighter control needed to make a supermini to sell at 12k vs a Jag to sell at £70k. But that is not where we need new ideas. 2 - Such profitable niches have gradually been eroded. One reason is that the full panoply of planning gain has been applied to smaller developer in most places. Think for example that Segal started with a small bungalow in his back garden while he built his house, and Span Developments (Eric Lyons) only built around 2000 houses in nearly 20 years, with an average development size of around 30 (2134 houses / 73 developments). What we have left at the lower end are builders doing developments at a couple or a few houses a year on plots as they come up. That is too small. I would like to see some Planning Gain only kick in at say 12 houses. IIRC it used to be 15 in most places. The overhead of reports and phalanx of oar-inserters is now many times what it was only 20 years ago. Are TV programmes the main drivers of innovation now? Ferdinand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Span_Developments

That's an interesting argument. We used to own a 2 bed mid terrace ex council house as a buy to let. We often thought the front bedroom that was the full width of the house would divide into two. Particularly as the 3 bedroom version of that house was only very marginally larger overall. the killer was the need to cut a big hole in an outside wall to install a second window. When it was priced out, the cost of converting it would have barely covered the extra price it might sell for, so we decided to leave it as a 2 bed. Interestingly shortly afterwards I did the wiring alterations for someone doing that 2 to 3 bed conversion. By the time you had taken out the extra bit of landing you needed to give access to the now two front bedrooms, what you were left with were two tiny bedrooms, barely adequate as single childrens rooms, so I am glad we didn't do it. that was definitely a case of one generous room was better than two inadequate rooms. however had they been built with two windows, I am sure more would have been converted.

In my uneducated opinion I'd say thats pretty impressive!

I think there is some confusion here between what the "major house builders" are trying to provide, and what the monkeys on site can be bothered to build, The developers are un deniably building what sells, they would be mad not to, and they have probably got bigger teams researching this constantly than there are people in this thread, The problem comes when you get recently qualified college leavers on price work, I severely doubt any of the management teams have ever said, "Just slap the insulation in, it'll fit where it touches" or anything along those lines, and if every house on the major developments was built as per spec they probably wouldn't be too bad, It also shouldn't be a case of getting every house checked. People should just take more pride in their work, whether this is instilled in the college environment, or every college leaver should spend a couple of years with the guy i did my apprenticeship with I don't know, there should be no excuse for just covering it up quick so the house can go to market, it's either right or it should get done again, rant over...... I just don't like the majority of site monkeys

But it's always the result when an organic element meets an inorganic element ...! Pick your industry - it doesn't matter which - and because every human is unique then anything that is designed is a compromise. There is no mass market for an AI house as it would be permanently confused as it tried to align to the needs of the occupants as they interact with the house - some have tried to "automate" however it is playing at the edges as there is no way the systems could cope with the multitude of variation that occupants and nature would throw at it.

Well that's it, the wall is full of concrete, tanked and back filled - if it's still standing in the morning I think it officially qualifies as a retaining wall!

Key there is you have to "conform". I think we've discussed previously that BRegs are only guidance, the stat decs are the law. If you get the manufacturer to sell you the windows on the guarantee the design will be certified by date x, as long as date x is before the sign off by building control is finalized. Notification from them that the design hasn't changed prior to certification should be acceptable to the BCO.

A lot of passive aggression on this site as well as passive houses. Sensus is making some valid points and obviously has more experience than most on here. Its good to look at positive and negative aspects of passive houses. They're not perfect.

I was not trying to prove that every self-build is better (in terms of quality, design etc) than mass build. I was reacting to your statement that mass build is "thoroughly designed and developed". Well, I am sorry, just can't treat those examples as such. And no, it was not the worst I could find, it was the second in the queue here https://www.taylorwimpey.co.uk/find-your-home/england/hampshire There are more badly designed houses then well designed ones, so I can just keep going https://www.taylorwimpey.co.uk/find-your-home/england/hampshire/andover/the-chariots/parcel-b---plot-011---the-buckingham - BTW, this one is just... WOW - the 2 bedrooms on the left side! And just imagine that it could have been an excellent 4 bed if they did not split them. https://www.taylorwimpey.co.uk/find-your-home/england/hampshire/andover/the-chariots/parcel-b---plot-006---the-stanton https://www.taylorwimpey.co.uk/find-your-home/england/hampshire/andover/the-chariots/parcel-b---plot-061---the-langdale The first detached one in Suffolk https://www.taylorwimpey.co.uk/find-your-home/england/suffolk/kirton/violet-gardens/plot-37-the-kentwell - check the main bedroom on the right with massive claimed size and yet no real space for a proper bed and a wardrobe at the same time. I mean any bed with the headrest will force people to squeeze between it and the wardrobes. Note, these are all from expensive part of the range (for the area), large detached houses. And even those are hideous on the inside. And then you say they care. Well, I do believe they care about not having complaints, so warranty part - yes. As for the floor plans... people have no choice but to buy from them because there is not nearly enough competition in the new home market. So most will have to take what's there - as bad as it is. I am sure you know that architects themselves say sizes are inadequate https://www.architecture.com/RIBA/Contactus/NewsAndPress/PressReleases/2015/Over50ofnew-buildhomesaretoosmallforfamilies.aspx This just scratches the surface. Adding 5m2 of footprint to every house costs peanuts to a big developer. It may even save them money by allowing simpler layouts. And do they do it? Oh, who in their right mind will forfeit extra profits to make customers this bit happier? By the time the average person may come back for another house (does it even happen with more then a few percent of population?) management is long gone. @Sensus, I want to make one thing clear. I know I am throwing a lot at you in these posts and it is not too well organised. I have absolutely nothing against you personally. You are here to share your expertise and this is great. Hell, I have nothing against every individual big house builder. But I dislike them as a whole, as part of the system, passionately. The way housing market is functioning in this country really gets on my nerves.

Apart from being pretty good at frame design, engineering and erection, one of their guys regularly flies his drone around taking pictures, so you get a great record of the build:

Its easy to get confused with the Ecocent naming. On another note, no heating and no temperature drops and plenty of hot water with the Ecocent for DHW. The whole house is a steady 22 degrees all the time with the exception of one bedroom which reaches 25 in the late afternoons with the low sun, but it isn't uncomfortable, and will improve once we get some curtains in.

To separate the pallets, forget trying to pull individual nails. I lay a bit of 8 by 2 timber on it's side with one end against the house wall. Stand the pallet upright so the plank you are trying to remove is along the ground and resting against this bit of 8 by 2 and one of the pallets cross members is right next to the 8 by 2 (I can see I am going to have to take a photo as I doubt that description makes it clear) Then hit the cross member of the pallet very hard with the FBH Sometimes the nails come out of the cross member, sometimes they pull through the plank. t helps to keep your pallets dry. The ones that have been inside all the time come apart really easy. The ones that have been left outside, the nails have rusted and they take a lot more hitting to get them apart. For firewood, I put lumps of pallet on the fire WITH the nails in. They riddle through into the ash pan afterwards no problem. Most people recommend against this.

Magic or Wiska Gel maybe?

My dad had a name for the tool with which you hit rather than screwed screws to fix them in the wall: a Birmingham Screwdriver

DeeFunFan... My system is much less complicated (oil boiler -> Thermal Store -> DHW and UFH) yet I also had nightmare of a time finding a plumber that understood such a system. My builder recommended someone that claimed to be a retired heating engineer that acted as an expert witness in heating related legal cases. Even he didn't understand how this was meant to work. In the end I drove him 200 miles to visit a company that designed and sold thermal stores. They basically taught him/us how it should all work. The thermal store is the key to the system so I would go visit a few and have them make a proposal. +1 ASHP work best (highest COP) the lower the flow temperature. So they are ideal for UFH, less ideal for DHW. The approach Nick suggests is good but I'm not sure how/if it could be modified to allow the stove to heat the UFH. One possibility might be to have a very well stratified TS that is much hotter at the top than at the bottom (as le-cerveau mentioned) . The stove would heat the top and the ASHP would heat the middle/bottom. Both DHW and UFH would be drawn from around the middle. Little or no mixing down required although I would fit mixers anyway. However I think this would be a difficult system to set up and get working reliably. If the store wasn't perfectly stratified (eg it becomes stirred) then the ASHP flow temperature would have to be higher. You need to be really sure the TS company know what they are talking about and have them take you to see such a system in a customers house. We have two DHW outputs on our TS feeding different parts of the house. So two sets of plate heat exchangers, two pumps, two mixers, one secondary loop pump in addition to what's needed for the UFH. This works very well in that we get two mains pressure showers with good flow rates. However the heat loss from the TS and all that the additional plumbing is significant despite being insulated. The TS is in a room the size of a small bathroom and that room gets quite toasty. I would not want to waste that heat by having it leaking into the loft space. Plan an airing cupboard? PS: In case it's not obvious... I would NOT get your plumber to design this system. Get the TS company to do it and perhaps get your plumber to install it if you are happy with his work. PPS: There is an issue of who is responsible if it doesn't work. Is it down to the TS company to solve or the plumber or you?

It's only that good because of Fays help cutting and sorting the half bricks. Without that it would be pretty average

It's only taken 4 months