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Sorry to hear about your loss. We lost our father-in-law suddenly during our build. He was an architect so it was a double blow that he never got to see the finished build. If your dream is to self-build rather than self-build on that specific plot don’t give up on it. We drove up to Scotland to look at one plot that I loved and was all in to buy but my other half, rightly, didn’t like it. We sat in a cafe licking our wounds and came across another plot that was nearby. Didn’t look much in the sales particulars but we went and had a look anyway and loved it and put an offer in that day. I subsequently retired (55), we sold up in Cambridge and moved to Perthshire. We move in to the house we built this weekend three years after walking onto the plot.

There is a some overstatement here perhaps, that one or the other is pointless. That what people here have decided to do is the only right decision. It will depend so much on the building design, lifestyle and location. The extremes may be a passivhaus in an urban situation, or a conversion in a rural situation. Most of us are in between. For anyone who doesn't know. A modern wbs takes air by duct from outdoors and draws nothing from the room. I think either or both options could be justified for the right circumstances.

I'm going to try and be fairly active on the forum during the course of our North London extension build. Planning was granted a few weeks ago and we're now looking for contractors and trying to sort out party wall. It will be great to draw on the experience of the forum and share some insights.

>>> The moral of this particular part of the story is that as intelligent as you think you are, there are always experts in the field that have experience aligned to that intelligence that will trump you every time. You are rightly treating this as a logical exercise with rules, regulations, standards, arguments, precedents etc. The cynical part of me suggests that 'sustainable travel' is just an excuse to do what the planners want - which is to discourage development in some circumstances. My LPA often uses the words 'amenity' and/or 'environment' regularly as justifications for their decisions without bothering to explain which aspect of amenity or environment they mean - and they have 3 or 4 definitions of each in their local plan. That is, they use these fuzzy words to 'justify' what they want - at least to themselves. Maybe Labour will change things around a little and some of that might work in your favour - at least they say they will re-write the NPPF.

TLDR; we've been unsuccessful at appeal for a single self-build dwelling on a 0.25 acre rural plot in Droitwich, Worcestershire. The longer version, with some background. Like most people, our search for a plot has lasted years, beginning in earnest in 2017, although in reality, in our hearts, much earlier. The first real glimpse of anything remotely affordable came in 2020 following a conversation with one of our neighbours where we mentioned we were still looking for somewhere to build our own home and they mentioned their sister might be looking to sell a side-garden plot. We viewed it, and although not ideal (it backed onto a railway) we agreed a price to purchase the 0.2 acre plot with existing outline planning permission on the condition that we would subsequently be able to secure a dedicated electrical supply at our required supply characteristics before proceeding. Unfortunately, this wasn't possible due to convoluted land ownership for the route of any new cable, so we had to reluctantly back away from that particular opportunity. Nothing much came up for the next few years. My skills at finding potential plots and analysing them for potential costs (services, fencing, access, etc.) and the likelihood of being able to gain planning permission improved greatly. Sadly, this was tempered with frustration at the increasing asking prices of plots in our target search area, including completely unrealistic asking prices for land without any permission at all. Then, a chance conversation with some close friends came with the mention of their parent's large rear garden which started us on this current journey. After long discussions over several months (they had never even remotely previously considered selling part of their garden), we thought we'd been unable to get to a mutually agreeable position and had given up hope. Nevertheless, following a few more months of fruitless searches, we decided to make one last-ditch increased offer and, well, it must have just landed at the right time because it was accepted! The agreed purchase price for the bottom 0.25 acres of their garden came on the condition (from our perspective) that we were able to achieve planning permission and (from their perspective) that we did all the work to do so and took on any risk (and cost) associated with achieving that permission. We submitted our first planning application in May 2023 but this was refused. Following advice on "dual-tracking", we submitted a second application in July 2023 with additional information addressing the refusal, but we also started an appeal on the first application at the same time. Despite our efforts, the second application was also refused for the same reason as the first. Crucially though, by dual-tracking, we did not lose another couple of months as the appeal on the first application was already in progress. Had permission been granted for the second application, we could have withdrawn the appeal. This is a great strategy if you think you might end up in the same position. The appeal process is both long and lacking in any certainty regarding the expected duration or indeed the visibility of progress over time, and it took until late June 2024 for us to find out we had not been successful and that our appeal had been dismissed. Please, don't underestimate the emotional and mental toll an appeal can take. In retrospect, we should have engaged planning consultants after the first refusal, maybe even before. Although there would have been a cost, we've spent almost a year in limbo not knowing what the appeal outcome would be, and if I'd had a high degree of confidence that engaging a planning consultant after the first refusal could have avoided that lengthy delay, it would have been worth every penny. Caveat emptor - make sure it's an amazing planning consultant of course! After the first refusal on "sustainable travel" grounds, I included extensive information about the cycling options available from the plot. But the planners still said that although they accepted this was possible, it was still not particularly safe and they again refused permission. Only after submitting the appeal and getting the second refusal did I find a planning statement that contained detailed statistics from Strava showing how extensively a particular route was used by cyclists and how, combined with accident data, I could use that approach to evidence that it was a well-travelled and very safe route. A planning consultant might have known this prior to the second, even the first application, and might have included the detail accordingly, potentially removing the planner's position for argument. The moral of this particular part of the story is that as intelligent as you think you are, there are always experts in the field that have experience aligned to that intelligence that will trump you every time. With a significant delay, we now know that we do not have permission. I can't begin to tell you how disappointed I am, especially as I believe the Inspector has been particularly harsh, has erred in some assumptions and has not taken into account all of my evidence and statements. But what we did have in the Inspector's comments was an indication that things may have looked a little more rosey for us had the application been of a type where conditions could have been applied; as a Permission In Principle application, this wasn't possible. So the fact that we would be installing two 22kW car chargers, that we would be building to a Passivhaus PLUS specification, that there would be a home office, and that we would be installing Ultrafast Broadband could not be secured and hence there would be no certainty to them. As a result, the Inspector noted "this and any associated environmental benefits attract limited weight". So the moral of this particular part of the story is to be very careful about the application route you choose. So where do we go from here? Well, we're discussing the situation with the landowners and seeing whether they are up for one last go at planning. If they are, we'll hold out a little while to see how the new incoming government might shake up the planning laws and re-write the NPPF and then we'll look to submit an Outline Application with All Matters Reserved such that we can be clear that we are willing to accept conditions that would ensure the environmental benefits of the development. In the meantime, I've also requested clarification from the LPA about a number of areas of application of policy that I find difficult to agree with. For example, Paragraph 109 of the December 2023 NPPF states "Significant development should be focused on locations which are or can be made sustainable, through limiting the need to travel and offering a genuine choice of transport modes." But LPAs and some Inspectors apply this particular paragraph and especiallly the "offering a genuine choice of transport modes" to all development. Is a single dwelling "Significant development"? If the remainder of the sentence should indeed be applied to all development, why does it start with the word "Significant"? There are others. Our dream has taken a significant hit, but hopefully, we're not down and out just yet. So, as an avid and competent DIY-er, with exposure to many planning areas that I never envisaged becoming knowledgeable in before, I've already been dipping into conversations as I've been building up my knowledge on the forum, so although not a newbie, now seems like the time for a proper introduction to both me, my family, and the plot. So, my name is Garry, I'm 54, I work in a senior position for a global IT services company, and I currently live in Worcester with my wife Nicki and my two adult children, Georgia and Alex (except when he's studying at Manchester Metropolitan University). Our proposed plot is the bottom 0.25 acres of the garden of an existing dwelling (so rural brownfield), but it has its own access (by prescriptive easement) along a private road to a field gate. We're fortunate to have a transformer for the electrical supply (which we hope to get upgraded to a three-phase supply) and a telegraph pole with 1Gbit fibre availability right next to the plot boundary, but there is a 3" PVC water main that runs right through the plot that will need to be moved due to the 6m easement required (3m either side of the main). Of course, on the other hand, the water supply is therefore also very close! There is a sewage treatment plant in the garden of the existing dwelling that is large enough to cope with the extra demands we will place on it. The existing dwelling and garden are on the outskirts of Droitwich and border a country estate and farmland with a couple of Grade II Listed properties (crucially we should not affect the "setting" of those properties) and a handful of cottages and barn conversions nearby. The planning applications and all documents (including the appeal) can be found online, so if you are interested in viewing them, drop me a PM and I'll send the links. If we ever do get permission, we'll be working with an award-winning architectural practice based in Herefordshire to create a Passivhaus dwelling with a design brief that currently envisages a home of approximately 220m2 with a 60m2 garage/workshop. I'm hopeful that I'll be able to bring you on the journey at some point, and that I'll continue to benefit from the combined wisdom of all forum members as we move forward with our design and, hopefully, build. In the meantime, I've attached some photos of the plot for your viewing pleasure. The first shows the bottom of the garden and most of the 0.25 acres of the plot. You can see the field gate in the bottom right corner. The second shows the plot from the bottom right corner, including the field gate that provides access. The third shows the view to the right (of the first photo) which is farmland (including a blurred-out landowner). The fourth shows the view across the plot to the farmland, taken from the access road (with the planning notification attached to the telegraph pole that has the 1Gbit fibre connection) The fifth and sixth show the view to the left (of the first photo) which is the access road. In the fifth photo, you can see the transformer bordering the plot, and the garage of the property that is visible in the first photo. The garage is at the end of the access road before it turns into the plot to the right, and round the corner to other properties to the left. In the sixth photo, the view is from almost the same location but looking in the opposite direction towards the main road.

The only elephant I see, is if the airflow out of the WBS is in excess of the power / flow of the fan in the MVHR unit, then there is a strong likelihood that 'smells' from bathrooms / kitchens 'could' make their way into the room that the WBS is in, but the stink from the WBS would probably overwhelm that anyways. Seems kinda moot now anyways as the OP has installed the kit and is 'happy'. The likely natural infiltration of this dwelling probably renders everything commented on above a complete waste of time anyways, as MVHR has no place in anything other than an airtight structure of 1.0 ACH or less.........

Good Luck, your plot looks fantastic 👍

Did that. Previous similar appeals in less ideal situations that had been successful were included, as well as case law, and examples of where LPA Planning Officers had determined similar cases in a more positive way. The Inspector's response was "The appellant has also referred me to the assessment by Officers of other proposals. Even so, I am not bound by these decisions. Irrespective, each proposal is considered on its own merits as is the case here. It is for the decision maker in each case to undertake the planning balancing exercise." The landowners have tonight confirmed that they are happy for me to continue to seek planning approval, so let's see what happens this coming week in the election and then in the weeks after that as the new planning policy becomes clearer.

I feel for you. I think that where a planning consultant would have assisted is in providing objective similar schemes that had been approved and drawing comparisons to your site and those. Where travel was an issue they would have looked for similar schemes that had been passed, on evidence, that were objectively ‘worse’ than yours. They reference planning policy, high court cases that challenge and reinforce your position and your site. Fundamentally, at an appeal stage, you’re into the intricacies and minutia of planning law, planning policy and case law. At this stage it’s very hard as a lay person to produce a compelling and reasoned argument. It’d be a bit like representing yourself in court. I also think that an appeals officer or planning officer treats an application differently when you have an advocate that understands planning and case law in detail. You sound a bit like me, trying to understand the NPFF, applying reasoned logic, ‘tilted balance’ and so on. But here’s the reality - actually what you need is not to understand and interpret the NPFF and planning policy, but to understand how your planning department and an inspector understands and interprets planning policy. This is totally different to you understanding policy, because the missing piece you won’t have is experience. Experience of national prior cases, of supporting high court rulings, of the local interpretations and sites that were passed and so on. Unfortunately, it’s not an intellectual argument, and it’s not a case of you presenting your argument to a panel of other lay people or a jury - it’s their decision to make - entirely on their interpretation and their application of policy to your application. I don’t know how It works with going back in for planning after a dismissed appeal but I would 100% recommend appointing an experienced consultant and speaking to them about your chances going for a full application (not outline). A good one will 100% be able to tell you if you have a case. Waiting for your planning officer or head of planning to come back on your points is a waste of time, I think. Get back on the saddle, get a professional in your corner, and see if the game’s over or time for round 2. 👊

Sorry to hear that, I was going through cancer treatment myself waiting for my appeal, it just made me more stubborn about the whole thing.

+1. Don’t let the buggers grind you down .

The plot looks terrific so well worth another go. I’d also still be looking for other plots however.

I'm impressed by your fortitude.

My point was they are not all bad . I employed a planning consultant for my third application and she was useless IMO. In my case not, although I had support from several members prior to the vote, they all voted against me in the meeting and would not look me in the eye (and I was told they were told to vote against me).

>>> Do you have some suggestions? Is it best to get someone who is used to dealing with a particular LPA As I said - a few hours on your LPA's planning portal and/or the appeals casework portal. Fish out appeals with similar characteristics (define this how you want). Note the adviser if there was one and the success/failure. Make a list. Approach one or two with the highest success rates. No need to use local, but a local might have relationships which may help (or hurt). I once used the author of a well known planning book.

Yes. I've had a few decisions go my way when councillors decide. They are people, influenced by the applicant's case. But it may then go to appeal and be overturned back to the officer's original decision.

>>> I can clearly see evidence of good and bad consultants Is one method to look at appeals in your area and see who gets the most wins? @joe90 - I'm super pleased for you that your appeal worked. But it's probably not good to extrapolate from a single data point. I've been slow to grasp this point myself, but is getting any new application booted to Planning Committee also a reasonable tactic?

Probably. I am wary as I can clearly see evidence of good and bad consultants, and it's often not clear who, in a particular consultancy, is responsible for various responses. I'll maybe interview some when my plan moves forward a little. I already have previous appeals as reference that specifically mention "Significant" in the context of rural development and sustainable transport; example, for 20 residential dwellings (in 2022) - "In addition to the above, I would add that Paragraph 105 of the Framework states that 'significant development should be focussed on locations which are or can be made sustainable' and 'opportunities to maximise sustainable transport solutions will vary between urban and rural areas, and this should be taken into account in both plan-making and decision-making'. In my judgement, the proposal does not quite meet the threshold for being 'significant' development..." So 20 residential dwellings doesn't meet the threshold for 'significant' according to that Inspector. This is the problem, they're applying their own judgement and so you can't get consistency and can only challenge an appeal on the grounds of law, not of judgement.

Quite….however it might be worth engaging a planning consultant who has dealt with similar situations before.

My currently developing plan is to wait for the answers to my policy questions (which include incidentally whether the Head of Planning considers a single dwelling to be "significant development"), see what happens with the new government, and then go for pre-planning advice and an outline application with some matters reserved, including menas of access as the only reserved matter. In that way, I can offer various conditions to secure the environmental benefits I mentioned previously (electric vehicle charging, dedicated home office, Passivhaus Plus, etc.) I can't really see any more effective options but am open to suggestions.

And therein lies part of the problem to my approach. Coming from a background where I'm very well versed in contractual wording, I naively assumed that the NPPF, although guidance, is very selective in its choice of words. For example, and the one that drives me nuts... So this is the paragraph that keeps being quoted in relation to limiting the need to travel and offering a genuine choice of transport modes, which is the reason for my refusal. Note it says "Significant development should be..."? It doesn't start with "Development should be..." Is a single dwelling "significant development"? I don't think so. Also, I'm technically rural, so that should have been taken into account when considering access to walking and public transport and really wasn't.

I agree. Is it worth going back to the LPA and asking what they would accept (I know many won’t do this but it’s got to be worth asking 🤷‍♂️).

Because at each generational change in ownership 40% of the value of the land would go to the state. Existing farming families would have to sell large portions of their farmsteads to pay the IHT, reducing the size of farmsteads making them unsustainable leading to their sale. There's not that many buyers for commercial (+500 acres) farms. You are suggesting that cereal production is 100% profit. Reality is most years it's an accounting loss. It is not possible to finance the land and make a profit from it after paying finance.

Here's how it ended up I snaked it round some Hep2O so four bends in the end. I heated the pipe more locally than I would have liked so I can see it's thinned a fair bit at a couple of the bends. To squeeze the pipe section in it's ended up leaving the pipe quite taut. Hopefully that won't cause one of the joints to fail.

>>> the appeal officers are not local planners Of course, but I am disabused by the notion that they're a set of superior professionals with excellent planning judgement. To my mind they're just another bunch of people with random opinions. Of course, they represent 'the establishment' and I suspect they feel that unless the evidence is so pressing they risk they High Court, then they'll support the LPAs, who are also 'the establishment'. Just download a dozen or so appeal judgements as see for yourself. Or read:

What else could you possibly do to be sustainable??? FFS. This makes me very cross. Jobs worth springs to mind. I would want them to tell you WHAT you can do to make it sustainable 🤷‍♂️

Jeez - "sustainable travel" doesn't include an electric car? You can bet the planners all drive to work (when they go into the office) from their pretty country cottages. Pretty much impossible to function as an economic element in the countryside without a car.

Admittedly this was home improvement rather than as part of a build, but we cut all the door frames and slid the tiles under. Definitely the "cleaner" approach.

No, both applications and the appeal were DIY. To be honest, the *only* reason for refusal related to sustainable travel and in my naivety, I thought I could address those concerns. I've learnt a lot through the process, and as I mention above, knowing all that now, I know it probably wasn't the best move.

In other words it is messy. This is a big job for, presumably, a major benefit. Not everything is diy suitable. 9m is a very long span. As above, the beam can be made in sections, with joining plates to bolt together in place, while all being supported. As a rule of thumb, a 9m steel will be about 450mm deep or more. It is a big job. Maybe they should be worried. The loading on an attic is far less than for a room. Perhaps they haven't troubled the building inspector. Are their floors bouncy?

I tiled first and door linings sat down on top. I would cut the bottom of the lining with a multi tool sat on top of a tile to get the correct height then slide the tile under. look so much better.

Mine is wood any size you like

can split the beams into sections, make a hole above the eaves and slide it in. If you have attic trusses already surely the SE can measure them and do the calculations for loading ?

Did think that also, but the 16m2 area and 100m of pipe is only around 12L, which isn't enough.

Correct. not white, silver. They're not pure black panels...

Very upsetting it must be. Lovely part of the world, hope you find it in you to keep going.

5kw will be more than adequate. forget cooling with MVHR we have exactly same zehnder unit with battery and its pointless wouldn't bother again. Instead get a wall mounted fan coil (Panasonic do nice ones) unit and insulate pipe to it with a condensate drain. You can then use the ASHP at 10c and the fancoil will essentially be aircon. We have 7 of them in bedrooms and they are fantastic. our 5kw panasonic ASHP will heat the 300L cylinder from mains temp to 55c in 20 mins in the current nice weather.

>>> As there is no CIL Fantastic, so you can file a carefully thought out mix of non-material, minor and full plans. Also when fulfilling conditions (materials say) you can change the original application. e.g. you could propose fairly different materials to the original application and, if accepted, you have just achieved a minor amendment by the back door.

Commiserations from here, that’s tough. I’m impressed by your careful analysis of the situation. And it looks a lovely plot. From my point of view, the planning system is increasingly capricious - each set of new rules just provides a bunch of new reasons to turn down applications. And we have some dreadful quality dwellings in this country and desperately need high quality buildings to be built. I hope you have the time and energy to continue with your quest.

Hi Garry, so sorry to hear of this refusal and good for you for not giving in. Yes all these bl@@dy politicians talk of building more houses and changing planning rules but they still stop people like yourselves doing the right thing. 🤷‍♂️

Before it was occupied we were invited to go to the top of the Canary wharf building, a very lonely building in those days. We got to the top in the lift and walked out into the vast open space. There was a video of the build and in it was a test on the window glass, floor to ceiling, and its fixings where they threw the equivalent of of 150Kg person at the window at 10 mph, it just bounced off. I still couldn't go within 1 meter of the edge looking out was fine, looking down was terrifying!

Well without a bannister right now, and therefore a drop, most people will find that space tingles the ‘danger’ senses. Maybe a ‘solid’ wall instead of a bannister - you might be able to imagine how high that needs to be before you’ll feel comfortable.

How about putting a ceiling hanging curtain up (or getting someone else to, that is)? You could gradually desensitise yourself and pull it back gradually (or decrease the thickness/sheerness)? It could be a cheap way to save yourself from a design faux pas. Alternatively, I’ve seen vertical wooden slats with gaps used effectively, in magazines, for dividing spaces.

Thank you for the comments so far. I put in the wood burner in 2021 when we had no heating at all after an abortive planning application. The MVHR decision was in order to avoid kitchen and bathrooms extraction. The 1914 leaky house has now been mostly demolished and rebuilt, significantly more airtight than it ever was The burner is in a main lounge for a ~175 sq m house that is now completely open plan downstairs with no internal door seals whatever I have a mains-powered CO alarm and fully understand its importance It was only when attempting buy an air kit for the Riva that I was told that it wasn't available - hence the question Regards Tet

A room sealed means the boiler takes air from outside the room. The combustion process and the air for it, is sealed from the room. It takes air via the flue.

I assume you mean CO. The burn process, in theory, produces just CO2. I wouldn’t have one in the house frankly. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140903091728.htm

I’m completely with @Iceverge on this. There’s a slavish regard of ‘manufacture’s instructions’ which can sometimes be written by idiots who are mainly motivated by fear. What they’re really saying is ‘we don’t know, we’re not familiar with this new technology and can’t be bothered to expend the effort to understand it, and we’re certainly not willing to accept any liability regarding it’. The whole world driven by an erroneous understanding of insurance and liability law. i can’t see whether the Riva 76 accepts an external supply, I think it doesn’t? But … at 9kW it’s almost certainly too much heat unless you live in an enormous leaky barn with no insulation. Trade it in for a Scandinavian model, probably the smallest heat output you can find, say 3kW, which takes external air? Check beforehand that they’ve thought sensibly about MVHR.

Have you thougt of getting sheets with flying ends? Makes overlaps easy.

Plus 1, that's £11k m2 and you still need second fix and paint. Did you miss the bit about gold leaf external finish?

£200k. Move.