joe90 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 @JSHarris I hope you will be invoicing S.A. for all your input on solving this issue ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, joe90 said: @JSHarris I hope you will be invoicing S.A. for all your input on solving this issue ? I wish! I think they know a lot more than I do about it, though, they just aren't great at either admitting there's a problem or letting customers know what they are doing to fix it. I believe they are working on a fix, although I've no way of knowing whether that is true or not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 24 minutes ago, JSHarris said: Yes, there is a tube down the middle and the sensors are just a bit of wires with three thermistors, covered in heat shrink and dropped down the tube. It's dead easy to pull this out, as it just sort of dangles down the tube from the top. I believe that it's just a single 2.8 kW (at 230 VAC) heating element right at the base of the cell. I've not had the lower cover plate off to look, but I think that @Barney12 has, as he had to reset the trip on his a few times I believe. Was sure somewhere I read they were changing to 3 x 1kW to allow for some redundancy if one failed... Virgin coconut oil at Lidl for £2.99/300ml. Melting point around 24degC...just thinking out loud... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 1 hour ago, JSHarris said: Yes, there is a tube down the middle and the sensors are just a bit of wires with three thermistors, covered in heat shrink and dropped down the tube. It's dead easy to pull this out, as it just sort of dangles down the tube from the top. I believe that it's just a single 2.8 kW (at 230 VAC) heating element right at the base of the cell. I've not had the lower cover plate off to look, but I think that @Barney12 has, as he had to reset the trip on his a few times I believe. Yes, my understanding is that it’s just one element. I’ve been told that the actual heating part is much longer than a standard immersion element and is designed as such to maximise its life as its non serviceable. That’s a point worth repeating; the heating element is in no way serviceable and if it fails then the whole unit needs to be replaced. Heres whats behind the service cover 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Davies Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 24 minutes ago, Barney12 said: That’s a point worth repeating; the heating element is in no way serviceable and if it fails then the whole unit needs to be replaced. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 Have a look at Nicks comment about it being 3 x 1kW: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, Onoff said: Have a look at Nicks comment about it being 3 x 1kW: Nope. I’m fairly certain that’s not the case. There was a lot of miss-information and specification changes in the final throws of development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 (edited) Close up of label: Edited February 28, 2019 by Barney12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 1 minute ago, Barney12 said: Nope. I’m fairly certain that’s not the case. There was a lot of miss-information and specification changes in the final throws of development. So...2.8kW is all all nothing. With 3 x 1kW it could have been controlled to gradually ramp up further limiting overcooking. And how hard FFS to make the "immersion" removeable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 On 27/02/2019 at 10:43, recoveringacademic said: For those of us contemplating fitting a SunAmp box, should we SNOG, MARRY, AVOID? +++++++++ Last updated 28th Feb, tea time. +++++++++++ THREAD SUMMARY Core issue: given the concerns expressed in this thread , is a SunAmp system a sensible purchase? Whats the concern? The issue is that one person (so far) reports that the system he has won't recharge until either 50% or 90% depleted. So you could run 48% out on day 1, it won't charge overnight and then day 2 you try and use 65% and it will go cold. ( @PeterW ) ? ( @Roz ) If 'charging' with hot water, then charge management problem disappears : ( @JSHarris ) @PeterW suggests '... simple pump and heater on a dedicated circuit with a small expansion vessel and run at 1 bar ...' The main selling point of the Sun Amp is the much lower standing heat losses than a HW tank. That is indisputable. So it comes down to does this advantage outweigh the extra costs and the extra "difficulties"? ( @ProDave ) So a Sun Amp may have an advantage if you are tucking it down down in the eaves where a taller tank might not fit, but otherwise I see little advantage. ( @ProDave ) There are few, if any, significant issues with the non-electrically heated Sunamps, they seem to work very well and provide a reliable, low heat loss, way of storing heat for either hot water or heating. ( @JSHarris ) I'd be reluctant to recommend the electrically heated Sunamp versions at the moment, at least until they come up with a more sensible controller. ( @JSHarris below) ' ... Why are we debating "work arounds"? The product should just do as advertised! It doesn't!! ...' ( @Barney12) @Nickfromwales joined the discussion; he suggests that errors may well have been made in the specification of some installs - that error source is likely to be reduced by SA's policy decision to have approved installers involved in the specification process. He points to the distinction between USEFUL capacity and ABSOLUTE capacity. He also raised an eyebrow at SAs apparently poor communications flow. However, there is some evidence that SA may not be (or have recently started) applying the Installer Only as Specifier policy in every case. ( @paulmb and @newhome) In respect of Sunamp UniQ units, a clear distinction was drawn by @JSHarris between electrically heated models and those heated by water ( from another source) The former appears to be unreliable, the latter reliable. @JSHarris and @Barney12 both argued that the the 'box' should do what it says on the tin. @Nickfromwales argument is that we should leave the installer to specify the size of the tin. He presents clear evidence of multiple successful installs. And hints that the problem under discussion might well be unique: so far it has been reported by only one person. I've read and re-read this thread now many times. The thing that worries me is that - as written - the problem statement (one instance of the electric charge version of Uniq doesn't work as advertised) appears to be based on a very small sample size : 1. So, @Pete, you first? Age before beauty they say! We are not in a position to purchase yet as my window saga continues. By the time we get round to it SA will be old technology. Will keep a close watch on how you get on though!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishjohn Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 I think you should ask sunamp for some PCM and make the unit you want JS show them how it should be done you seem to have all the required expertise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 9 hours ago, Barney12 said: Close up of label: So the safety stat pops when the bottom 6" of the tank passes 90deg? (looks like a standard sensor pocket...) And the element looks like a bespoke black-heat style jobbie with cold tails through compression fittings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 I've been having some correspondence with Sunamp recently, as well as with other Sunamp customers who have had similar issues. The good news is that they are making changes to the controller firmware, that they believe will reduce or remove the failure to charge problem that we have for around 30% of the time. I believe that they have changed the charge acceptance threshold, but I don't know what they've changed it to, and TBH I doubt that it's a fixed value, given the challenges posed by trying to estimate state of charge from just three temperature sensors inside the heat battery (really a cell, IMHO, but they refer to it as a battery). Sunamp are certainly being helpful, and are sending me an updated controller, and have asked if I can assess it's performance. However, this is a Catch 22 request, as they've also said that I can't fit the status light to the new controller... The big problem this presents is that without the status light there is no way to tell whether or not the Sunamp is in the "accepting charge" state, which means that not only can I not compare it to the original controller's performance, but I have no way of knowing whether or not we are likely to run out of hot water the following day. I'm not that confident that they have really grasped the nature of charging a Sunamp from excess PV generation, either, as the suggested fix for having no indicator was to just time how long the Sunamp took to charge. Bit of a tall order when it's charging from variable power PV and you have no way of knowing when the thing is charged... My question about modifying the new controller to fit the absolutely essential status indicator has gone back to their technical people, but I have been given an interim reply that mentions it disrupting the way the controller senses the status of the heat battery, which is, frankly, BS, as the only sense mechanism is the chain of temperature sensors, and they are completely isolated from the heating element contactor (which is all that the indicator mod connects to). I'm really glad that Sunamp are looking at this issue, and have been working on a way to address it, but at the same time I've not got a lot of confidence that they actually know a lot about how either normal excess PV generation systems work, or how they interface with their product. This is completely at odds with the technical people involved in the Sunamp PV, who clearly had an in-depth understanding of what was needed to make best use of PV generation. I'm hopeful that things are looking up. though, and that I will be able to stop going into the services room every morning just to reset the Sunamp so we can be assured of getting hot water the following day. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 Well I know what I would do. Fit the indicator and swear blind on a public forum that I had not....... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 4 minutes ago, ProDave said: Well I know what I would do. Fit the indicator and swear blind on a public forum that I had not....... I've chucked the ball back in their court for now, as if they want to know how their new controller is performing then I need to be able to tell when it's on or off, without lifting the lid and sticking a meter on the contactor... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 1 hour ago, JSHarris said: My question about modifying the new controller to fit the absolutely essential status indicator has gone back to their technical people, but I have been given an interim reply that mentions it disrupting the way the controller senses the status of the heat battery, which is, frankly, BS, as the only sense mechanism is the chain of temperature sensors, and they are completely isolated from the heating element contactor (which is all that the indicator mod connects to). Wow. I would LOVE to hear the technical explanation for this disruption! Thank heavens I didn’t use grey cable clips to fix my 4mm T&E supply cable to the Sunamp controller. Oh, hang on, I did so that’s probably why my Sunamp units failed. ??? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 Right now I'd really like to talk with someone technical who actually understands their own product. All I've done is reverse engineer how I believe their controller works, based on observations of the way it behaves, yet it seems that I may know at least as much, possibly more, about the basics of the controller than the technical chap that's been tasked with talking me through things. It's frustrating as hell, as back when I first got the Sunamp PV I had several really sensible and useful conversations with a technical chap at Sunamp that really understood every detail of the way the control system worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA3222 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 (edited) This seems to be an interesting development. I don't think it would be wrong of me to say that a lot of members on here have been persuaded of the benefit of a SunAmp by primarily @JSHarris and the feedback you provided as an early adopter and then @Nickfromwales who has also beaten the SunAmp drum. Equally a lot of people are now having doubts about SunAmp because of JSHarris feedback of the new system. It seems that SunAmp recognise the impact that the feedback you provide has JSHarris and you have become a 'champion' for the forum members in righting the problem. From a selfish pov, I hope you have some joy in sorting the problem as I am one of the 'converts' and hope this issue is sorted by the time I need to part with hard cash!! I suspect the struggle will take a while! Edited March 19, 2019 by LA3222 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 If sunamp had any sense they would listen to our Jeremy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 46 minutes ago, LA3222 said: I don't think it would be wrong of me to say that a lot of members on here have been persuaded of the benefit of a SunAmp by primarily @JSHarris and the feedback you provided as an early adopter and then @Nickfromwales who has also beaten the SunAmp drum. This is something that I feel guilty about, if I'm honest, as I know full well that my enthusiasm for the Sunamp PV, based entirely on my experience of its excellent performance, has influenced others. To now find that the new product has been engineered in such a way that it fails to perform as well as the original Sunamp PV, at least when used as a way of storing heat derived from PV generation, is disappointing. It may well be that there is a genuine fix for the various problems in the pipeline, but right now I'm afraid that I don't have a great deal of confidence that this is the case. The primary reason for my doubt has to do with the way that we're being drip-fed information, and have been getting a mixed messages, from denial that there are any problems, through to rather unconvincing explanations as to how the unit can be monitored to see if it's likely to fail to charge before it gets depleted to the point where we run out of hot water. I understand that the need for some form of feedback to the user is now understood, which is a step in the right direction. Right now I feel that there need to be a concerted effort to rebuild confidence in the performance of the product, and having a means to let the user know the state of charge, and whether the unit is accepting charge or not, is vital, IMHO, when it comes to convincing users that the product is working well. The suppliers of PV diverters learned this early on, and it's no accident that the best-selling unit has a pretty informative user interface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 36 minutes ago, LA3222 said: I don't think it would be wrong of me to say that a lot of members on here have been persuaded of the benefit of a SunAmp by primarily @JSHarris and the feedback you provided as an early adopter and then @Nickfromwales who has also beaten the SunAmp drum. Both Jeremy and nick have always been honest in anything they said about either sunamp or any other item they have been posting about. They call it as they see it with both the good and bad being aired. We are also very lucky to have some one with nicks knowledge about Sunamp available to answer most of the questions that get asked. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 41 minutes ago, JSHarris said: This is something that I feel guilty about, @JSHarris has nothing to feel guilty about, yes he was enthusiastic about the original sunamp because it worked very well, it’s just a shame that the newer model did not and Jeremy has been at the forefront of finding a solution for himself, other forum members and sunamp themselves. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA3222 Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 8 hours ago, Declan52 said: Both Jeremy and nick have always been honest in anything they said about either sunamp or any other item they have been posting about. They call it as they see it with both the good and bad being aired. We are also very lucky to have some one with nicks knowledge about Sunamp available to answer most of the questions that get asked. I'm not sure if you've misunderstood me slightly. I have no issue with the fact either have shilled the benefit of SunAmp, as at the time it seemed an excellent product - one I was interested in myself and the feedback they gave on how to integrate such a product remains invaluable. Clearly there is now an issue and SunAmp seem to be acknowledging the damage that the feedback we now have from Jeremy can do to their potential future sales. Albeit to a small market of self builders. There's a fair few self builders who were going down the SunAmp route whom are now following this thread closely to see how this develops. I daresay this thread will be very useful for future members as well. One could argue 'are they really bothered about us' as their target market is likely the big developers? The positive I take is that at least they are starting to engage with us by proxy through @JSHarris as our 'champion' in solving the problem he has idea identified with the product. Hopefully it gets resolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted March 20, 2019 Author Share Posted March 20, 2019 A quick interim summary. Two issues run through this thread the technical discussion and the way the company communicates with its customers One member has reported direct experience of a SunAmp product failing to recharge. That member reports other users' (not necessarily members of BH) similar experience: the unit fails to recharge in a timely manner. Another member reports multiple problem free installs. Given that many readers (let alone members) of this forum appear to be considering purchasing SunAmp equipment, it would appear that the company's communication strategy leaves something to be desired. Technical discussion is on-going. It important to note that units recharged via a hot water source aren't a concern. The problem is with those units linked to solar PV generated energy. The argument is made that intermittent solar energy supply appears to compound the core problem : the unit fails to recharge in a timely way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 12 hours ago, joe90 said: If sunamp had any sense they would listen to our Jeremy. All Hail Jeremy!! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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