Extension- Last Stuff.

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

 

I'll get this info more accurately tmrw Declan.

 

Its a general mish mash some parts well over 200mm deep, maybe 3x layers, and all heavy enough to have sunk into & between the joists. But mostly its 2x 100mm layers it seems just fairly put perp over the joists. Not much pattern or care to it, but its far thicker than I thought to find.

If the insulation just goes over the joists with nothing in between, then you will have a gap between the ceiling and the insulation.

 

Then at the ends, it is very likely that gap to some extent will be open to the cold loft allowing cold air under the insulation totally negating all it's good work.

 

What many people fail to appreciate is is to be effective, insulation needs to be installed carefully to ensure there are no paths for cold air to bypass the insulation. this is easiest achieved by filling the whole area totally with no gaps, then putting the next layer on the same, with no gaps etc.

[joe90]

I remember reading somewhere that best practice is to put a layer of waxed paper between layers of insulation to restrict air flow but this must be a nightmare to try and actually do this in a loft ?.

[PeterW]

It’s why they suggest laying it at 90 Degree layers so you remove the possible gaps. 

[zoothorn]

53 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Insulation is fine but it only stops heat that you have from escaping quickly. If your heating is not working as it should all the insulation in the world will not make the place warm. I have masses of insulation in my new build but if the heating stops working eventually the place will go cold.

 

Understood joe. But the heating is working as it should, in fact at 55* its working hotter than average for this system. The rad in this room is now quite often hot, and its a huge rad, but im always cold/ the room is never warm. Ive got it to 18*, once, but rad on all day to achieve this. Usually its 15.5* say, with rads on. Its hardly worth me putt8ng the ch on, like this ev i havent bothered just used my fan heater in kitchen & early bed ( now) in this cold room (with south park episodes on ipad). You get used to it, i am used to it.. but its galling knowing a toasty room is right below me, & without any use of the heat too.. in fact i think this situation might drive me bonkers tbh.

Edited December 15, 2020 by zoothorn

[zoothorn]

17 minutes ago, ProDave said:

If the insulation just goes over the joists with nothing in between, then you will have a gap between the ceiling and the insulation.

 

Understood. But what i found was altho its laid acroos the joists, bc theres another layer ontop of it, theres enoug( weight for it to sink prett6 effectively down between the joists, so very few gaps i found at all if any.

 

why does thi# ipa£ do thes3 annoying symbols? I cant make i5 d9 it if i fkn tr6. 

[ProDave]

^^ get a proper computer with a proper keyboard.  I can't abide these touch screen things (yes I am an old stick in the mud)

[Gav_P]

6 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Understood. But what i found was altho its laid acroos the joists, bc theres another layer ontop of it, theres enoug( weight for it to sink prett6 effectively down between the joists, so very few gaps i found at all if any.

 

why does thi# ipa£ do thes3 annoying symbols? I cant make i5 d9 it if i fkn tr6. 

Are you dragging down on the key when you are typing? Press don’t drag. 

[Jason L]

19 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Understood. But what i found was altho its laid acroos the joists, bc theres another layer ontop of it, theres enoug( weight for it to sink prett6 effectively down between the joists, so very few gaps i found at all if any.

 

why does thi# ipa£ do thes3 annoying symbols? I cant make i5 d9 it if i fkn tr6. 

That won’t fill enough of the gap, plus don’t forget that This type of insulation shouldn’t be compressed so it’s important for it to be between and then over the joists.  

[Onoff]

28 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

in fact i think this situation might drive me bonkers tbh.

 

Been in a similar situation before then? ?

[Roundtuit]

13 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Understood. But what i found was altho its laid acroos the joists, bc theres another layer ontop of it, theres enoug( weight for it to sink prett6 effectively down between the joists, so very few gaps i found at all if any.

If the first layer isn't laid between the joists, there's bound to be passages for cold air to circulate and negate some of the benefit of the insulation. For minimal cost, and a few unpleasant itchy-scratchy, bang-your-head, back-aching hours, I'd re-lay it to my satisfaction, and top it up to 400mm. Then you know it's right  ?

[TonyT]

I run my workshop Hoover in the room near me when I’m working with insulation, helps keep the fibres away from me...

 

I like the b&q white recycled bottle insulation and use that when I work in the old part of the house, easy to buy when passing and non itchy..

[joe90]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

^^ get a proper computer with a proper keyboard.  I can't abide these touch screen things (yes I am an old stick in the mud)

nothing wrong with an iPad fir use on this forum ?(from another old stick in the mud with an iPad ?).

[Onoff]

7 hours ago, joe90 said:

nothing wrong with an iPad fir use on this forum ?(from another old stick in the mud with an iPad ?).

 

Says it all really... ?

 

(What's the "cross in a box"?)

[joe90]

1 hour ago, Onoff said:

What's the "cross in a box"?

duh ?

[Gone West]

10 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Understood. But what i found was altho its laid acroos the joists, bc theres another layer ontop of it, theres enoug( weight for it to sink prett6 effectively down between the joists, so very few gaps i found at all if any.

From what you have described the reason your room is cold is largely because the loft insulation hasn't been installed correctly. The type of insulation you have in the loft shouldn't be fitted so it can sag or be compressed. There should be a minimum of 300mm. The first layer should fit between the joists snuggly so there are no gaps, is not compressed and is roughly level with the top of the timber, probably 100mm. The next layer should go perpendicular to the joists, and if it was 200mm thick it would finish the job. If less than 200mm fit two layers with the second perpendicular to the first. It's a minimum of 300mm, it doesn't matter if it's 400mm. It's a crap job I've done several times but it does make a lot of difference if it's done properly. The builder obviously couldn't be bothered.

[ProDave]

Why not just tell the builder that did the extension, that the insulation is not fitted properly and does not conform to building regs so they must come back and do the job properly at their own expense and you will check their work as they progress to ensure it is being done properly.

[Gone West]

@zoothorn If there wasn't a loft hatch fitted by the builder did he drape the insulation over the joists as he was plasterboarding the ceiling. That would explain everything.

[zoothorn]

17 hours ago, Roundtuit said:

If the first layer isn't laid between the joists, there's bound to be passages for cold air to circulate and negate some of the benefit of the insulation. For minimal cost, and a few unpleasant itchy-scratchy, bang-your-head, back-aching hours, I'd re-lay it to my satisfaction, and top it up to 400mm. Then you know it's right  ?

Right that makes sense. You've convinced me to redo it. Omg this is gonna be awful, esp the confined area, always crawling etc. Im worried mostly really about putting a foot thru the pb. A mask can help with fibres, but steAms up glasses.. so its always eyes full of it. Urgh.

 

6 hours ago, PeterStarck said:

@zoothorn If there wasn't a loft hatch fitted by the builder did he drape the insulation over the joists as he was plasterboarding the ceiling. That would explain everything.

Hi Peter, yes exactly this/ i saw it being done. I only saw the 1st  layer of 100mm you see, im assuming another layer bunged up over it, in fairly decent fashion considering, but whole pb ceiling plus these layers done in one afternoon by his two roof chaps.

 

thanks.

 

 

[zoothorn]

7 hours ago, ProDave said:

Why not just tell the builder that did the extension, that the insulation is not fitted properly and does not conform to building regs so they must come back and do the job properly at their own expense and you will check their work as they progress to ensure it is being done properly.

Cos it'll cause me village hassle. Ive yet to measure the stuff accurately, for Declan's q.. it does seem to be 100mm stuff tho, but some areas stacked thick, mostly seems 200 total. It does tho leave the q of whether bco will poke his nose up here to check.. in which case you might have prompted me to get him in to tick off these two rooms. Then i could tell bco pls ask builder im scared thank you please.

 

Then the damn balcony yet to build you see so he cant sign it off yet: in retrospect i bit off more than i can chew adding biggish supported balcony, and a juliet instead would've been alot more sensible, but.. ive got doors opening out.. c* cking the juliet redo idea up. Bllx.

 

Does this orange stuff stuff come in 150 mm as a rule? Or 100 & multiples of i wonder.

[Declan52]

Think your just going to have to get up there and remove what's there in sections. If it's not snug between the joists then it's a chocolate fire guard . It will roll all back into tidy pieces which you can then pick a starting point and do it right. 

There's no other way around it. Depending on how much wiggle room you have to get a plank/ timber up there you could use something 800mm long and 400mm wide. Will let you lie down across the joists without going through the ceiling. If you have 2 bits of timber even better. 

[zoothorn]

2 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

Think your just going to have to get up there and remove what's there in sections. If it's not snug between the joists then it's a chocolate fire guard . It will roll all back into tidy pieces which you can then pick a starting point and do it right. 

There's no other way around it. Depending on how much wiggle room you have to get a plank/ timber up there you could use something 800mm long and 400mm wide. Will let you lie down across the joists without going through the ceiling. If you have 2 bits of timber even better. 

Yup thanks Declan l'll start this plan tmrw. Before next cold snap. As its a big hatch it at least means i can start from top of steps around, and good size hole means i can get a biggish board up to lie on.
 

 But one thing: if the orange is 100mm and the joists 70mm, then is this safe to squash down 3 cm onto the pb, if i need to put boards across over where ive redone it? If you see what i mean.

 

Also i guess once even the 2 nd layer of 100mm, laid over and along the joists, you cant then put a board over this layer spanning across onto next joist, bc it'll put even more pressure onto the 1st 100mm layer, onto the pb. If i then add another layer.. im upping the stakes even more.

[Declan52]

The extra depth won't matter. 

What depth of insulation have you bought??

 

[PeterW]

I would move the builders cheap crap to the end - guaranteed to be 100mm stuff - and make layers of it so you only move it once. So the furthest from the hatch is just 400mm of builders orange fluff but installed properly. 
 

First layer - between the joists and see what you can get down the skielings 

Second layer half up the wall and then in strips so it covers the first - this will go over the joists. 
Third layer laid same as first 

Last layer - rolled over at 90 degrees to the rest nice and tight. 
 

Not the best way but it then means you can start with fresh stuff properly. 
 

Get a 100mm Rockwool or recycled plastic combi roll and cut it in half with a hand saw 

 

First layer between the joists as before 

Now get a second roll of 200mm, leave it full width. Measure your gap from hatch to the end of the builder shite, and cut a length. Roll it up, put it into the attic and unroll to the end. Same again on the other side. 
 

Last off, get the remains of the 100mm and unroll it over the 200mm stuff at 90 degrees, tucking it down the sides 

 

close the hatch and forget it forever .... 

[zoothorn]

21 hours ago, Declan52 said:

The extra depth won't matter. 

What depth of insulation have you bought??

 

 

hi Declan. Not bought any extra yet. But I have dived in, and done the 1st layer, between joists. Awful job due to confined space. I was happy to find squirrel evidence.. bc it means it wasn't mice as I thought, IE no unpleasant 'evidence' (nut bits instead.. rather cute in fact), & no thru-way hole from old loft, fingers x'd, my main concern. But I do need to address where nutkins is getting in. These damn skieling gaps it must be, why the need to be so big.. argh.

 

So I need to buy -one- more whole new layer/ rolls of stuff. Opinions please. Thanks zoot

 

[zoothorn]

18 hours ago, PeterW said:

I would move..

 

@PeterW

I've just read your post above, appreciated, having actually started job before I read it.. so I've repositioned one layer of 100mm between joists. I've got to go get the 4x plant pots, so if I need more insulation/ can get this too.

 

So afaict I've got enough orange for another layer ontop. Couple of Q's: should I push my 1st layer as far twds skielings as poss/ to meet the white roof lining, or leave a gap? (air circulation?). Basically can I stuff the tricky skielings areas between white sheet & top of wall?

 

My 2nd layer: just to cover the joists, ie same orientation as 1st layer? not sure how I can get it up the wall tbh. Maybe last layer possibly: I think I can only cope with one added new bought layer, to lie perp/ ontop of all these orange ones running across. Im so restricted, plus its a very tricky job as it is. I'll have to do this new layer tmrw.

 

I did find a 4ft sq area of bare pB/ no insulation (pushed aside) above my bed.. my spark's fault, he used this pB section as access to fit lights. Couldn't be arsed to pull it back.

 

thanks- zoot