Wagas Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Hello Mainly due to budget constraints I'm looking at buying most of the materials and managing the build myself. I also live 5 mins from the plot and work flexible hours from home and my work involves organising/negotiating/patience so I feel I'm well suited to PM...famous last words! I feel I'm in a good position to negotiate with labour as I'm not in a rush, I'm thinking the build will take up to 2 years. For example I'm thinking of calling say 20 local groundwork companies to get quotes for the groundworks/foundations/soakaway and just simply saying they can do it whenever they want, but in return I want rock bottom price. It's a nice plot with off road parking, water, electricity and toilet and I have PP for 3 further dwellings for the future which I'd dangle as a carrot to the companies I use for constructing the first dwelling. I feel the tide has turned in my area (Cambs) and projects are starting to be shelved due to Brexit. I've had a main contractor already tell me he's had a development cancelled on him this month for this reason. I think conditions for negotiating on price are better this year than last but of course things can change quickly. Keen to hear what others have done. Did you use groundworks company for the foundations and then hire bricklayers. Or did you get the groundworks done and then get a builder to get it to roof level and then hire roofing contractors etc. Any advice welcome especially the breakdown of stages you did everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Getting 20 quotes is time wasting - for you and them. Between 3 and 5 is fine. Having good people you can trust is worth more than a cheap price and nightmare work / workers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 I agree, as apart from anything else, word will get around that you're asking for loads of quotes and the chances are you may not end up being taken seriously. I found that ground works companies (might apply to others, too) in my local area tended to use the same two or three QS services, for example. The process I used was to approach a few companies to see if they were interested (many weren't) and also to get a feel for their approach. I then went on to go to tender to three, maybe four, companies that I felt would both be interested and that seemed OK from my initial assessment. The biggest problem towards the end of our build became the availability of good contractors. I often found that I had to book a slot for work maybe 3 to 4 months in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recoveringbuilder Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 I would be very wary of telling them they could do it whenever suits them but for that you want rock bottom prices, seems to me it would invite them to take it on, squeeze it in between jobs, like say ‘oh we’ve got a couple of days next week with nothing doing let’s get that one done , quick as we can cos there’s no money in it but it saves us being idle ‘then you’re inviting trouble, remember, the ground works, foundation and drains form a big part of the build (in my opinion) and if these aren’t done correctly it would only lead to more trouble along the line, I have no doubt you will be able to manage the build since you obviously have the time but it’s not always easy to get tradesmen to work in tandem with each other in fact in my experience they usually create problems out of the least thing and blame each other! we have done 3builds now and the first one 20 odd years ago we had no experience whatsoever, I still sometimes think to myself how the hell did we ever manage that and what made us think we could! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedreamer Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Similarities with my self build which I am also project managing. Project managing is lot of work and for me the best plan was to stagger the build over a few years. This allowed me not to be rushed into making decisions. I live in a small community so I already knew which contractors I wanted to do particular jobs. In addition our contractors have worked with each other before on other jobs so know the standard of each others work. This is important as you don't want your different contractors complaining about work done before them. For the groundworks this has been the only area where I did not supply the materials. My joiners and roofer just worked on a labour only basis as they are not VAT registered therefore the only way to get the VAT back would be me ordering materials. What type of superstructure are you building timber frame/double block/SIPS etc? I wouldn't get 20 quotes that seems very excessive, do you have any family/friends connections who could recommend contractors? If going down the sub contractor route I would go for 3 quotes this should be sufficient. I would also recommend purchasing the latest edition of the Home Builder's Bible which provides some average prices and will provide a starting point for considering quotes. I think it only costs around £15 and it really is a no brainier when your investing significant sums into a self build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redoctober Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 1 hour ago, Mr Punter said: Getting 20 quotes is time wasting - for you and them. Between 3 and 5 is fine. Having good people you can trust is worth more than a cheap price and nightmare work / workers. 47 minutes ago, JSHarris said: I agree, as apart from anything else, word will get around that you're asking for loads of quotes and the chances are you may not end up being taken seriously. I agree with the above and have had first hand experience of what @JSHarris says. One builder I contacted said he wouldn't price the job up because he heard we had already approached two others!! His loss I know but he was one of 5 we contacted. Of that 5 only 3 came back with quotes. I choose to keep the groundwork's tied in with the builder, simply to reduce the number of "parties" involved and therefore reduce the risk of a "not us mate" situation arising! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wagas Posted January 30, 2019 Author Share Posted January 30, 2019 Thanks for the responses. 20 quotes seems to be causing a stir and it I think I exaggerated. In reality it would have been more like 5-10 and having read your responses I'll get 5 max. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 1 hour ago, Wagas said: [...] as I'm not in a rush, I'm thinking the build will take up to 2 years. [...] Keen to hear what others have done. [...] Most if not all self-builders start with a time-line in mind, and then change it in the light of experience. I don't want to hint at pessimism in my first response to you: but. I started employing people (groundwork, piling, initial build) , got my remaining 8 fingers burned. So, cheerfully, I'm doing it myself (except the clever stuff). The odd mate or two turn up, take the mickey mercilessly, do a bit of work, take the Michael some more. In revenge, I encourage our chickens poo in their shoes. The odd child turns up, does a couple of hours, tells me I'm doing all right for an old git, allows me to squeeze some cash in his pocket (for the grandson) and disappears. Stressful (because I know sod all about building), regularly losing sleep and having the time of my life. Seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 To try to narrow down the companies you approach so do some reasearch. Go on your local Facebook group and ask for recommendations, google the companies (if registered), check out reviews and financials etc. Then choose the 5 you want to ask for quotes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Good luck with your twenty quotes Groundwork company’s are.very hard to pin down This Brexit will blow over After the vote we where going to see interest rates soar and we where going to be out of work Not much sign of building work slowing in the NW I wouldn’t negotiate to hard on laboure as they will move onto Somthing betterpart way through your build Supplyers are where you can make a large saving Massive differences between the price of the same products If you are in a position to order ahead of time mansging the build yourself wont be a problem If you employ good trades Not the cheapest who happen to be available Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 17 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said: Most if not all self-builders start with a time-line in mind, and then change it in the light of experience. I don't want to hint at pessimism in my first response to you: but. I started employing people (groundwork, piling, initial build) , got my remaining 8 fingers burned. So, cheerfully, I'm doing it myself (except the clever stuff). The odd mate or two turn up, take the mickey mercilessly, do a bit of work, take the Michael some more. In revenge, I encourage our chickens poo in their shoes. The odd child turns up, does a couple of hours, tells me I'm doing all right for an old git, allows me to squeeze some cash in his pocket (for the grandson) and disappears. Stressful (because I know sod all about building), regularly losing sleep and having the time of my life. Seriously. Yep but through thick and thin you have kept going. You have made mistakes and got screwed over countless times but still you kept your chin up out of the muck and gutters. That's the secret, accept shit will happen and keep on going, celebrate each milestone and don't beat yourself up when it goes tits up. And don't be afraid to come on here and bare your soul, ask for help and try to figure out solutions. Go and read through as many of the blogs as you can and see it ain't an easy job being a project manager but with plenty of time and luck along the way it's definitely doable. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mvincentd Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Well you've heard it here 10 times already but i'll reiterate...forget 20 quotes. It's more likely you'll need to put out to 20 co's to get 3 quotes back. Put down any idea that because you're building a whole house you've got sway with trades, what you're doing is just normal to them even if to you it's the biggest personal financial project of your life. I also think a 'do it when you like, but cheap' negotiating stance is an invitation to have rings run around you....they'll do it when they like anyway:) Man management in a corporate environment is of course a transferable skill...but do expect a very different kind of zoo. Good luck, you'll have fun...and a nervous breakdown maybe, but it'll be worth it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue B Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 I think you’ll find that providing a toilet on site is expected if not a requirement. If you don’t have a toilet, I’m sure they will make do, somewhere ??. i have a feeling it is part of the CDM regs?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 13 hours ago, mvincentd said: (...) Put down any idea that because you're building a whole house you've got sway with trades (...) My wife puts it pithily.... A self builder is not a repeat customer. Trades prefer working for them. Self builds are one off. (Unless you are called @Stones) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 12 hours ago, Sue B said: I think you’ll find that providing a toilet on site is expected if not a requirement. If you don’t have a toilet, I’m sure they will make do, somewhere ??. i have a feeling it is part of the CDM regs?? Yes, it's mandatory that you provide a site toilet and clean water for hand washing. If managing the site you may also be expected to provide other H&S elements as well. I provided an eye wash station, first aid kit and a plastic box of gloves, safety glasses and a couple of helmets in our garage as soon as it went up, not that anyone used any of the provided PPE, or their own come to that... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrerahill Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 21 hours ago, Wagas said: Hello Mainly due to budget constraints I'm looking at buying most of the materials and managing the build myself. I also live 5 mins from the plot and work flexible hours from home and my work involves organising/negotiating/patience so I feel I'm well suited to PM...famous last words! I feel I'm in a good position to negotiate with labour as I'm not in a rush, I'm thinking the build will take up to 2 years. For example I'm thinking of calling say 20 local groundwork companies to get quotes for the groundworks/foundations/soakaway and just simply saying they can do it whenever they want, but in return I want rock bottom price. It's a nice plot with off road parking, water, electricity and toilet and I have PP for 3 further dwellings for the future which I'd dangle as a carrot to the companies I use for constructing the first dwelling. I feel the tide has turned in my area (Cambs) and projects are starting to be shelved due to Brexit. I've had a main contractor already tell me he's had a development cancelled on him this month for this reason. I think conditions for negotiating on price are better this year than last but of course things can change quickly. Keen to hear what others have done. Did you use groundworks company for the foundations and then hire bricklayers. Or did you get the groundworks done and then get a builder to get it to roof level and then hire roofing contractors etc. Any advice welcome especially the breakdown of stages you did everything Being a Project Manager/Clerk of Works for a build can be good way to save some money and potentially ensure a high quality build, however it depends on your background and or aptitude to research and clearly understand building processes and details - so on the flip side, it could cost you. Although you will never know every detail of every part of a build if you have good construction knowledge one way or another (say you are a General builder, architect or consultant engineer) you then stand a good chance to act when you see things being done incorrectly - however, little or no knowledge and experience in the industry can lead to issues going undetected. That is not to say you couldn't educate yourself, to a point, but it depends who "educates" you. Plenty of contractors out there talk utter rubbish. I had a concrete contractor stand and talk drivel at me and also quote an eye watering price for concrete. Had the price been about right and had I been unaware of many things concrete related I may have gone for it... what I would have ended up with would have needed to be broken out and redone! The worrying thing is, a totally untrained man in a van can claim to be a ground-worker, turn up in a van, place concrete for our builds, possibly poorly, then our entire build sits on this for the rest of it's days! As for quotes, 20 quotes is excessive. As an example, I got 3 concrete quotes and 2 bricklayer quotes, I was able to raid the QS's folder at my firm and get pricing details, historical quotes etc. and I also generally know what I should be paying for a cube of C30-40 concrete etc. I also know what contractor day rates should be so when I was quoted nearly double from one chap I was able to ask him for his breakdown right there on the spot and trip him up horrifically as it worked out he wanted to be on about £1200 a day for himself - my laughter upset him a little! I even had the Tarmac rep in here, I liked his price actually - so don't discount getting the concrete yourself for your builder to place - it also lets you guarantee you are getting the concrete type/spec you order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sjk Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I do wonder at what point it becomes cheaper to hand it over to someone else, the cost of mistakes, interest, time, other costs etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, Sjk said: I do wonder at what point it becomes cheaper to hand it over to someone else, the cost of mistakes, interest, time, other costs etc I can send you a piece of string to provide the answer to that one ?. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wagas Posted January 31, 2019 Author Share Posted January 31, 2019 31 minutes ago, Sjk said: I do wonder at what point it becomes cheaper to hand it over to someone else, the cost of mistakes, interest, time, other costs etc Indeed. If I had a wife, kids, full time office job I wouldn't consider it. Cost of mistakes is an interesting thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadnaught Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 To self manage a build takes hundreds of hours of preparation by reading, researching, speaking to others, visiting builds, exhibitions, etc. But for me the journey is the destination and I immensely enjoy doing all of that. Personally, I would not want to skip any of it by handing it over to someone else and paying a much larger bill. But then I also have full control over my time so can devote those hundreds of hours by choice. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I really enjoyed the journey of self managing but then I am retired, even my wife was not on site through the week as she worked away. Also I was very lucky in having a very good builder (local) and we worked well together. Also my builder worked to a fixed price for the main construction with me doing all timber related stuff (apart from being taken ill and them doing the roof construction for me). The builder charged ex VAT as it was a new build so saved claiming that back later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) Must admit I did get around 20 quotes also for the ‘dig a big hole and not cause surrounding houses to collapse ‘ . As it was a non standard request and as the quotes varied wildly I needed more to find the average price . The lowest quote was 7k ( which is impossible) . The highest just short of 100k !!!! Most seemed to get in around 25k ish . In the end went with gut instinct and choose some guys for 18k Edited January 31, 2019 by pocster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stones Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 6 hours ago, recoveringacademic said: My wife puts it pithily.... A self builder is not a repeat customer. Trades prefer working for them. Self builds are one off. (Unless you are called @Stones) Building relationships, it's what it's all about! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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