Plumbing 101: the absolute basics

[ToughButterCup]

Trying to get our current house ready for spring 2018. The plumbing is dire.

SWMBO and I spent so much time when we were at home after formal working hours preparing for the next bit of work, that we simply ignored all sorts of DIY stuff. But now we (what do I mean 'we' - I ) need to get a grip of it all. A clanking heating system, weeping this that and the other.

 

The end in mind?

Bring the house plumbing up to a standard which would allow us to rent it out. And to do that in an affordable, and safe way.

 

My plumbing skills are sub-prime. Nugatory. Negative. 

 

As usual I turn to YooChube for help. And, then I realise that I need to practice. A bit like @jamiehamy did here. 

So I need to get some bits and bobs together on which to practice

 

I think I can guess some of the things I'll need to work on Hep2O and copper systems. And I think I'll start with joining bits of copper pipe.

 

Any advice? Dos don'ts? Any good YT resources you've used?

All help welcomed.....

 

[Vijay]

Buy a good torch, it makes all the difference. Secondly make sure copper is spotless. Yorkshire solder ring fittings would probably be your easiest bet, once you see the solder, it's pretty much done

[PeterW]

Unless it’s visible, don’t use copper..!!!

 

go to Hep2O from the start and just do it once and forget it. Underfloor copper sweated joints are not for a beginner and you will create yourself problems. 

 

By the time you’ve bought a Rothenberger trigger torch, decent pair of pipe slices and a few bits and bobs you will be in for £100 and that’s a LOT of Hep2O and fittings. 

 

Leave copper to those who really need to do it - Hep2O is near foolproof and that’s what you need in a rental. 

[MikeSharp01]

+1 to use plastic everywhere unseen - it is easy and although soldering copper is fun it is not as safe - you will need a heat resistant matt to protect any woodwork near where you are soldering, unless you would like the insurance company to replace the house along with the plumbing should it catch fire,  as well as some flux along with the Torch and cutters @PeterW mentions. I, personally, don't necessarily feel that the Hep20 is the ONLY choice but if you go that way don't forget to get the unlocking tools - The John Guest (Speedfit) does not need a tool but does have locking collars which clip in if you want to be sure the fitting is locked.

[ToughButterCup]

I am not going to be able to replace all the copper with anything else, no matter how good the replacement  is. So I have to acquire some copper skills. Probably no bad thing.

 

Essential, as in cannot do without tools - a sort of Plumbers Starter Kit   ? Ideas please.

 

 

[Vijay]

The torch I use https://www.screwfix.com/p/rothenberger-quick-fire-torch-propane-gas-cylinder/28681

Edited December 11, 2017 by Vijay

[PeterW]

24 minutes ago, Vijay said:

The torch I use https://www.screwfix.com/p/rothenberger-quick-fire-torch-propane-gas-cylinder/28681

 

I do hope you didn’t pay that for it ..!!! RRP is £65 and a cylinder is £8 for propane, £11 for MAPP. 

 

The swirl tip on those isn’t the best - the one on the Bernzomatic is better and usually cheaper too. 

[ProDave]

 You can tell I am a dinosaur. My gas soldering torch was my dad's. It's probably as old as me. It connects via a hose to a 4.5Kg Calor propane bottle.

 

I have another one that I don't use that screws onto the top of a Calor Dex bottle, I am not even sure you can get those refilled any more and even when you could the cost of the gas was stupidly expensive.

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

+1 to use plastic everywhere unseen - as @PeterW mentions.

I, personally, don't necessarily feel that the Hep20 is the ONLY choice but if you go that way don't forget to get the unlocking tools - The John Guest (Speedfit) does not need a tool but does have locking collars which clip in if you want to be sure the fitting is locked.

JG speedfit is inherently flawed IMO as you can rotate the pipe anti-clockwise and that merrily undoes the twist 'lock (?)' fitting with ease. You can stop that from happening by fitting the little horseshoe circlips under the collar, but it's all just hassle. Hepworth is night and day better, and yes a bit more to buy, but it's certainly fit and forget. 

@recoveringacademic, the pipe outside diameter is crucial to the forming of a watertight seal, so look after the pipe. Keep it baggaged and DONT drag it through holes or masonry thus creating linear scratches aka tramlines down the length of the pipe as you then bugger the whole length up. Water loves tracking along those tramlines so look after the pipe, my number one rule.  

[Vijay]

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

 

I do hope you didn’t pay that for it ..!!! RRP is £65 and a cylinder is £8 for propane, £11 for MAPP. 

 

The swirl tip on those isn’t the best - the one on the Bernzomatic is better and usually cheaper too. 

Actually just looked at mine, Bernzomatic TS7000, but I assumed they were just rebadged. Had mine for years so no idea what I paid for it

[Construction Channel]

if you want to mess with copper (which i get the impression you do,)

 

pretty much buy this, a can of gas , wire wool, flux and some solder, 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Monument-Piezo-Brazing-Soldering-Plumbing/dp/B0748NQRL7/ref=sr_1_19?ie=UTF8&qid=1513007230&sr=8-19&keywords=plumbing+torch

 

you might need to add a 22mm pipe slice if you come up against any of it, otherwise, just the 15 included will be fine

 

its probably not the best available gear but you don't need to pay top dollar for reliability as you would be very unlucky for it to fail on the amount of work you need it for...  

 

 

[Construction Channel]

this might be a prime opportunity for @Nickfromwales to get a days wage acting as a tutor .......

[joe90]

The plumber who taught me to do copper used to say “ cleanliness is next to godliness” and I swear by these for cleaning pipe and fittings.  https://www.toolstation.com/shop/p49495?r=googleshopping&rr=marin&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=googleshoppingfeed&mkwid=sIblTTyLI_dt&pcrid=142002554548&pkw=&pmt=&product=49495&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpoS6krCC2AIVBrXtCh2PwQLUEAQYAyABEgJ2l_D_BwE

 

you can clean pipe ends with wire wool but it’s a pig to get it into 15mm fittings.

[TerryE]

Doing copper plumbing is a skill which takes some practice to acquire.  So my suggestions are:

1. Don't bother, and 
2. If you really want to then do it at the bench and
3. Use compression fittings to joint your work to the stubs coming out of the wall.  The videos say that you don't need PFTE tape, but when I do this I find maybe 20% weep, so my suggestion is at least 4 turns of PTFE covering the olive and you just won't get weeps.  Less hassle.   Or
4. Use the Peglar Tectite range if you want some smart looking joins.  They are a bit pricey, but they are the dog's bollocks, and wont leak.  Just make sure that your copper pipe is clean.
5. You can use Hep2O fittings to connect Hep2O  to copper.
6. If you use Hep2O then ready the Wavin guide at least a couple of times and never forget to put the inserts in.

A decent pipe cutter is essential.  Use a ratcheting cutter for the Hep2O -- it's just easier.   If you need manifold work, just use the Hep2O plastic range.  The lifetime isn't as good as the brass ones, but you should have sold the house long before there is an issue.

 

Also remember to check that you copper pipework isn't being used for earth continuity anywhere in your house, because if it is then you need to add 10mm straps copper to copper to preserve continuity or get your electrician to do it properly.

 

Also remember all of the bollocks about controlled activities v.v. BC when it comes to selling your house. 

[ProDave]

The other important thing with soldering copper is let the solder cool naturally and DON'T MOVE the joint while the solder is still setting.

 

I love it personally, that and pipe bending to minimise the number of joints needed in the first place.

[Nickfromwales]

I can't really endorse soldering copper in your own house if you intend to cover it over, if you've genuinely never done it before. You can have the best looking joint, soldered and fluxed, cleaned and polished. Then you pressure test and it's all going great. Then you put heat through the pipe and it cracks and opens to weep out of site. 

Do it where it can be seen / accessed but that's a good place to keep the soldered stuff imo. Good to convert to copper where it's exposed as pushfit is bloody ugly stuff to have on show, even in cupboards etc. 

Top tip for soldering is don't get it too hot. As soon as the flux evaporates away from the joint your pretty much up to temp, any more and you'll start the fluxed internal surfaces to go black, and then they'll refuse solder. I use Templers Telux Mild and clean the pipe and fittings spotlessly with fine steel wool, plus I always brush flux onto the solder so your reintroducing the list evaporated flux as you solder. 

Apply solder from furthest away from you and work back towards yourself, that way you'll know the unseen part of the joint has taken solder in. 

As I was always told "heat the fitting NOT the pipe " . The fittings have thicker walls than the pipe so require more time to arrive at the same temperature as the pipe, but you only need a small amount of heat for them to be warmed through sufficiently and for the solder to take to both. You have to take the flame away and bring it back again during soldering to stop the joint from 'burning' but a few practice joints will start you off for a look-see. 

 

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

[...]

. Good to convert to copper where it's exposed as pushfit is bloody ugly stuff to have on show, even in cupboards etc. 

[...]

I had thought that a 'silly' idea . Not anymore. Dunno why .It was Pete who first mentioned it. I'll give it a try.

[jamiehamy]

2 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

 

Do it where it can be seen / accessed but that's a good place to keep the soldered stuff imo. Good to convert to copper where it's exposed as pushfit is bloody ugly stuff to have on show, even in cupboards etc.

 

Hmm, I think the opposite is true! I think HEP stuff nicely laid out looks miles better than aged copper - is is @PeterW who has the manifold connected with plastic? I tink it looks cracking - copper looks old fashioned and is nearly always discoloured (since we're talking about looks only!). 

 

@recoveringacademic a decent bench clamp and/or set of helping hands are worth their weight in gold - especially if making up sections - avoids weird contortions trying to hold bits together and solder and not get burned....!

 

I would most certainly recommend plastic, but if going copper, would also recommend soldering rather than compression - it's a nightmare in comparison!

 

 

[Onoff]

I always previously had the most issues with compression joints, having to really give them loads of grunt to do them up and them ending up squeaking!. I used to use PTFE tape. Not any more, now it's Jet Blue Plus paste. No more weeping joints. Lubes and seals. Superb stuff IMHO.

 

For copper I have the Benzomatic torch and MAPP gas. 

[jamiehamy]

Jet Blue or Jet Lube? I have looked for this before and can't find it! Probably being daft tho!

[Nickfromwales]

57 minutes ago, jamiehamy said:

Hmm, I think the opposite is true! I think HEP stuff nicely laid out looks miles better than aged copper - is is @PeterW who has the manifold connected with plastic? I tink it looks cracking - copper looks old fashioned and is nearly always discoloured (since we're talking about looks only!). 

 

@recoveringacademic a decent bench clamp and/or set of helping hands are worth their weight in gold - especially if making up sections - avoids weird contortions trying to hold bits together and solder and not get burned....!

 

I would most certainly recommend plastic, but if going copper, would also recommend soldering rather than compression - it's a nightmare in comparison!

 

 

I think it's @PeterStarck that has the uber nice looking plastic manifolds, one where I have to concede the point as it does look pretty damn good ?

[joe90]

I have just finished my pipework and gone hep, no joints except manifolds and end fittings so no potential to leak in hidden spaces or restricted flow round tight 90’ bends. ( yes there are a few non hep,s but these are going to be replaced as soon as I get replacements).

Edited December 11, 2017 by joe90

[Jeremy Harris]

This thread has prompted an idea.  Some of us are competent to teach others to do some basic stuff, I'm sure.  There's nothing like an hour or two chatting and working through some typical jobs, like making soldered or compression pipe joints, making plastic  pipe connections, and other jobs, like fitting MVHR stuff, and all the myriad jobs in a build.

 

How about setting up a "I'll volunteer to help you learn about that" group?  I'd happily take the odd day out to drive up with some tools and stuff to spend a few hours helping someone else pick up some of the skills I've acquired, for example.  Anyone else think this is worth exploring further as an idea?

[Cpd]

I think its a great idea, i am so far away that i expect i would have to entice people with free holiday accommodation and world class views, then i could show them some stonework tricks and when we are tired go and look at the complicated stuff......   

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, jamiehamy said:

Jet Blue or Jet Lube? I have looked for this before and can't find it! Probably being daft tho!

@JSHarris swears by the liquid PTFE stuff. Can't recall the name of it