Thoughts on DIYing plumbing

[Onoff]

39 minutes ago, TerryE said:

Nonetheless I've just gone out and bought a 2m coil of the new solder which should be more than enough to do all of the joints that I need, and I will certainly have enough left over to show the BInsp if he asks.

 

Lead free?

[Jeremy Harris]

I'm certain you're right, Terry.  It was a knee-jerk decision to ban lead from everything, irrespective of whether there was a significant, or even real, risk of harm in any particular application. 

 

I don't think for a minute there's any evidence to support the view that the very, very tiny bit of exposed, 40% lead, solder in a capillary pipe fitting has any health impact at all.  At best a few molecules of lead salts may get dissolved in a few hundred litres of consumed water per year, which is ludicrous compared to the lead exposure we have from many natural sources.

 

I understand why the lead ban was initiated; workers in electronics factories were being exposed to high concentrations of lead from tin/lead solder baths and manual soldering, as were workers in industrial soldering operations such as manufacturing hot water cylinders etc, but to apply the same ban on domestic water solder is both is without any evidence I can find easily, and I strongly suspect there is none.

[ProDave]

CPC still sell 60/40 electrical solder.
 

[Jeremy Harris]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

CPC still sell 60/40 electrical solder.
 

 

Yes, as do a few other places I've since found, now.  However, when the RoHS regs first came in everyone stopped selling it for a time, I found, it was buy it on ebay or live without the stuff.  I think what happened was that many companies did a knee-jerk reaction to RoHS and thought it meant that they weren't allowed to sell the stuff.  They then realised that it wasn't their responsibility to stop people using it, lots of people (me included!) started complaining on forums that lead-free was a PITA, and gradually the retailers started selling the stuff again, quite legally, as RoHS only applies to "products" and their manufacturers, not hobbyists.

 

I'm not even 100% sure that someone doing DIY plumbing HAS to use lead-free solder.  I've had a quick look around and I can't see anything that prevents a DIY'er from using it if they wish.  Just as well, given that I used 60/40 on all our soldered pipework after the horrible experience when I tried lead-free.  All the DIY sheds still seem to stock 60/40, which, I suspect, shows that there is still a fair demand for it (people like me, probably!).

[TerryE]

You can still buy and use traditional lead-based solder, but the BRegs specify not on potable water. And now of course,, the DHW is also classified as potable.

 

@Onoff, of course the new stuff is lead-free. I need to have a bit on hand to show the BInsp if he asks.  I already have a full reel of leaded, but I can't show him that, can I?

[ProDave]

I like the thinking. Leave the reel (part used) of lead free kicking about.  But in all honesty do you even expect the BC inspector to ask?
 

[Jeremy Harris]

Not only will the BI not ask, but there's no easy way to tell from just looking at a joint.  There are times when 100% compliance with the regs is essential, and a very good thing, but equally there are times when it's best to just take an easier, simpler and just as safe route and not worry too much about the regs.

 

I can give an example, and one that I did raise with my BI.  Our 70 litre buffer tank is on the ground floor, and is indirect, but filled with inhibitor, because the coil in it is filled with antifreeze for the ASHP (and there was no way I was paying hundreds of pounds for 70 litres worth of antifreeze!).  All it feeds is the UFH and a PHE for pre-heating the incoming cold water supply to the main DHW heating system.  The regulation way of installing this would have been to fit a small header tank, with float valve, overflow etc, in the first floor, in-roof, service room.  However, space up there was limited.

 

The buffer tank was rated at, IIRC, 1.5 bar maximum working pressure (enough to allow it to be used on the ground floor of a three storey house with a loft-mounted header tank).  I decided to use it as an unvented cylinder, operating at 0.5 bar, so fitted a larger than normal expansion vessel, filler loop etc, a 1 bar pressure gauge and a 1.5 bar pressure relief valve, discharging into a tundish to a drain.  Building inspector was of the view that running at 0.5 bar meant it wasn't a pressurised system, and wasn't the slightest bit bothered about it.  Technically it needed a part G sign off, but if your BI signs it off on inspection that's covered.

Edited February 4, 2017 by JSHarris

[Nickfromwales]

Leaded solder is certainly duller, and dullens quite quickly, after soldering and cleaning the joint initially. Anyone who wanted to establish the use of leaded solder wouldn't struggle tbh, but I doubt if the question would ever be raised, ( or that the BCO would actually give a shit ). If you TOLD them that you've used it that's a TOTALLY different thing, so keep quiet, lie, or use lead free. Simples.

TBH, I now prefer soldering with lead free, but hated the stuff when it was first made mandatory. As Jeremy has said its a pita to adjust, but with me soldering literally thousands of joints I've soon forgotten about the differences. As terry said, forget trying to sweat ( solder ) a copper tail to a lead cold mains with lead free solder. You must use leaded for that and then you realise that leaded solder is far easier to form a 'shoulder' with, often referred to as a 'wiped' joint. 

If you REALLY want to split the atom here, you could happily use leaded for everything other than the drinking water eg all the heating and Ufh / ashp etc as the lead will be 'contained' to the sealed systems separately and away from human consumption. 

 

You've got more chance of being hit by a comet than dying of lead poisoning from soldered joints in a domastic install. What a load of bollocks. . 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

45 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

You've got more chance of being hit by a comet than dying of lead poisoning from soldered joints in a domastic install. What a load of bollocks. . 

 

 

That's a more eloquent way of describing the risk than I could have come up with!

Edited February 5, 2017 by JSHarris
typo, "that" when I meant "than"...........

[Nickfromwales]

4 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

That's a more eloquent way of describing the risk that I could have come up with!

One of the reasons I haven't been kicked off here yet, I'm the fall guy 

 

Maybe I can bribe @SteamyTea with an 80 pack of Tetley to actually calculate how likely I am to be hit by said comet. 

INCOMING!!!!!

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Maybe I can bribe @SteamyTea with an 80 pack of Tetley to actually calculate how likely I am to be hit by said comet. 

I think there has been one recorded incident of someone being directly hit by a fragment of comet/meteorite in my lifetime (as opposed to secondary damage).

So that is 1/(55 x 5bn)

3.6 x 10^-12 chance.

I suspect that lead poisoning from a soldered joint is a lot higher.

 

Car driving is a lot more dangerous, even on lead free fuel.

[TerryE]

On 04/02/2017 at 18:27, TerryE said:

You can still buy and use traditional lead-based solder, but the BRegs specify not on potable water. And now of course,, the DHW is also classified as potable.

 

Another thing that stuck me here was that I would be seriously lagging my DHW copper pipework to keep the heat contained, and I will also lightly lag the DCW pipework to avoid condensation.  So by the time the BInp sees it not of the pipework will be directly visible and I will have photos of course.

 

BTW, what is the best tape to use for the joints in the lagging?  The stuff that I used on our current house all fell off over the first 10 years or so.

[Nickfromwales]

Armaflex do a range of self sealing tapes and lagging. 

 

[jamiehamy]

Okay, so just a quick update - I've ordered all the plastic pipe work, stop ends and the manifolds and copper. I'm going to start the runs from the plantroom to the outlets in the next week - when I'm not battening of stuffing insulation between joists or mounting gyproc...

 

Ordered the lot from JTM - they were £80 cheaper than Screwfix, but Screwfix would have had it available for collection tomorrow - but make a total balls up when I phoned about a discount code (another thread on here!) and deleted every item I had picked...not amused! I'm going to practise my copper) soldering skills some night over the next week and make up the manifolds in the house once I feel proficient enough. 

[Gone West]

3 minutes ago, jamiehamy said:

 

Ordered the lot from JTM - they were £80 cheaper than Screwfix,

 

I've ordered twice from JTM and both times delivery was next day!

[jamiehamy]

Hiya, 

 

Me again...! So starting to dry assemble my manifolds - will do some practice solders tomorrow. 

 

I've got a couple of questions on @Nickfromwales's epic picture. 

 

Have I gotten the flows right here - the hot flows into the first TMV (with the cold), and the output from that splits into two, feeding the second TMV to bring the temperature into the third manifold down further? I can't quite see the detail in the green circled area so not 100%. 

 

Are the TMVs fitted with a non return valve to stop the hot flowing down the cold supply manifold?

 

Also, what has been used to connect the manifolds? I've gotten 22mm-3/4" female elbows into the manifold male ends, which have a rubber seal - presumably this is fine with no tape or anything else? For the other side, where the manifold has the female end, does the male elbow go on with tape, or is there something better? It doesn't tighten up at the right angle, so it slightly loose without tape just now. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TerryE]

@jamiehamy IIRC, 51°C exceeds Bregs. 

The TMVs aren't fitted with NRVs. But you won't get back flow through a TMV. (Have a read of my latest blog post).

Use an O ring or washer.

 

Where I disagree with Nick's approach here  (did I just blaspheme, BTW) is the lack of a compression straight on his CW riser.  I break all of my copper work into separate sub-assemblies that I can make up on the bench and isolate for pressure testing before putting them into position. e.g. using an end stop instead of the TMV output.  I also had my draincocks on tails so these tails can double as the fill points for pressure testing before final assembly.  Doing this has three major advantages:

1. No hot soldering in a confined cupboard in a timber framed building.
2. You can test each sub-assembly on the bench (or the floor) before you put it in position.  Unless you are Nick, you will find leaks and need to rework.
3. You can flush out any residual flux and crap from the sub-assembly before you put it into position.

Edited February 21, 2017 by TerryE
Nick's got leeks; I had the leaks

[jack]

9 hours ago, TerryE said:

Unless you are Nick, you will find leeks and need to rework.

 

We get it, he's Welsh.  Give the guy a break!

[Jeremy Harris]

A lot of this makes very good sense, Terry, but you (and I) have the time to do things this way, for our own convenience and peace of mind.  Someone making a living from it has to do the job at an affordable price for the customer, and as the saying goes, time is money.

 

The electrician I used for the house wiring was bloody good, but did think that I was going a bit OTT with some of the stuff I'd specified, and even some of the work I'd done before first fix, like fit loads of backing boards wherever fittings were going, all set to the right depth to either set the boxes in the right place or be dead flush with the rear face of the plasterboard where things like lights, pull cord switches surface mount control units etc were going to be fitted.  I can understand why, as I had the time to do all this stuff in exactly the way I wanted it done, a luxury that someone making a living from it wouldn't normally have.

[TerryE]

@JSHarris,  Jeremy, I agree that there is a different sweet spot for professional plumbers who can have a high degree of confidence in the reliability of their joints, and this is also a case of time - money and the end customer might not be willing to pay. 

 

But @jamiehamy is a DIY installer, and I feel that decomposing the full down installation into separate sub-units and doing sub-unit testing is a sensible approach for him to consider as an option.

[Jeremy Harris]

I agree with you, Terry, and I did much the same as you, building up sub assemblies that I could test before installation, wherever it was practical.  In my case, most of that stuff was related to the borehole plumbing and things like the water softener valve set, because the manifold layout I used didn't really lend itself to being tested as stand alone modules.

[Nickfromwales]

11 hours ago, TerryE said:

Where I disagree with Nick's approach here  (did I just blaspheme, BTW) is the lack of a compression straight on his CW riser.  I break all of my copper work into separate sub-assemblies that I can make up on the bench and isolate for pressure testing before putting them into position.

 

That's the joy of having time on your hands . For me, working on price, things get fitted once. That plywood was all in before soldering, so with the correct blow lamp and a burn mat there's no reason to risk property or roast the surrounding material. 

( And, the whole arrangement can be removed with a screwdriver and a spanner, as just out of shot is the isolation / bypass arrangement for the softener, complete with compression fitting.  ). 

@jamiehamy

The arrangement is exactly how you described it. The only thing I'd change if I had that job again ( that was my fist true PH installation btw ) would be to feed the secondary TMV straight off the TS. The reason for that would be less dead water to get rid of before getting hot flow to the basin manifold ( furthest right ) plus it would convection pre-heat so would always stay warm / hot. 

The next one will be perfect. 

The one after that even better. 

And the one after that even more betterer. 

Continue above reasoning until death. 

??

 

 

[TerryE]

1 minute ago, Nickfromwales said:

And the one after that even more betterer. 

Continue above reasoning until death.

 

It doesn't work that way.  Eventually you become a decrepit old fart like me and then its down hill all the way.

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, TerryE said:

 

It doesn't work that way.  Eventually you become a decrepit old fart like me and then its down hill all the way.

 

When I become the worlds most proficient plumber, I'll be too farked to pick up a spanner. 

Ah, well. ?

Cheers !!

 

[jamiehamy]

Thanks gents. I've made a start,  got a dry pressure tester,  just need to dig out my bicycle pump! 

 

I've soldered the manifold sub assemblies - where the cold manifold supply bridges over to the middle manifold (where the mouse is) ,  I'll be putting a compression Tee to make it easier to join. 

 

I've just used 22mm to all the manifolds - the left most is the hotter supply for showers and bath,  the middle for basins at a lower temp and right most cold feeds.   

 

All supplies are heading through the floor space as the plant room is upstairs. The red arrow will be roughly the level of the UVC outlet with min 500mm distance.