Costings Damage Control

[jamiehamy]

We worked with an architect on a barn conversion which ultimately never came to fruition. When we asked him to provide an estimate to support the water tank my jaw hit the floor. I asked him to revise the price and got waffle in to return. We dispensed with his services there and then. I burned that bridge and don't for a minute regret it. It's my hard earned cash and if someone wants to rip me off I don't waste time beating about the bush. Not unpleasantly but firmly. Although I fully understand the softly approach and not criticising, it made me laugh tho. No one should have time to manage egos and sensitivities throughout a build.

 

So my suggestion is to treat this as a dry run for the future. Don't be embarrassed about saying the architect price is ridiculous, or that the QS figures are questionable at best - I can assure you the only person with any true interest is keeping your costs realistic, and low,  is yourself. 

 

I've questioned almost every cost and almost without fail it's paid off. Where it didn't was where firstly the cost was correct and the professional was happy to take time to explain why (it appeared high) , reduced it a bit, but be able to justify it. Having a TV show never featured in the reasons tho. 

 

[Alex C]

I haven't look at your costs in detail, but what most self builders don't take in to account is that a QS is normally going to cost a job to what you would pay a main contractor including there overheads and profit, and will nearly always err on the side of caution with figures. Typically in the southeast a one off build to a high spec is likely to be in the region of £2000 a m2 main contractor route but more like £1500 m2 if you are running it yourself and doing quite a lot of work. My build has come in bang on budget at just over £1400m2 for a pretty high end fitout passive build, but then I have been on the tools full time for a year and worked really hard to keep control of the costs. There is no question that ours would have been a £600k build through a normal main contractor route. Also in my experience architects are terrible at costing a job. Most of them just do not have enough time on site to really understand what stuff costs, and also keep track of rising material and labour costs, which in the last year have been fairly significant for materials at least. To be honest a budget of £250k to build a finished house sounds optimistic at best. You can't use the same m2 figure on a small house as a large one as you always benefit from an economy of scale.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Alex C

[dogman]

Hi,  we are another MBC client,  And are not that far from you on the Oxon border, currently at first fix but we are doing everything ourselves. If you want pop down and see us as it often helps to see first hand and we are on our third self build Ours is 300sq m and will be less than 300k finished 

I visited a lot of members homes before we started and are happy to return the favour 

[Alex C]

@dogman if you complete your build of a 300sqm mbc house for 300k I will come and buy you a pint. I assume when you say doing everything yourself, you mean absolutely everything.

[ProDave]

22 minutes ago, Alex C said:

@dogman if you complete your build of a 300sqm mbc house for 300k I will come and buy you a pint. I assume when you say doing everything yourself, you mean absolutely everything.

£1000 per square metre is also our target and so far we are on track to achieve that. But I am doing most of the work on the build.

[jamiehamy]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

£1000 per square metre is also our target and so far we are on track to achieve that. But I am doing most of the work on the build.

Ditto 

[Weebles]

We are another MBC client but just at the drawings stage.  We are about a year behind @dogman and learned alot from visiting their site and also going to @Bitpipe house (further ahead again).   We started with an architect about 18 months ago.  We know alot more now than we did then, thanks largely to all the shared knowledge on this forum and alot of reading and research.  We still don't know enough and probably never will.   Planning permission is granted.  We no longer have an architect (£12K seemed a bit steep for building regs and some drawings). We are working on the building regs ourselves and we are taking one small step at a time, trying to deal with one small job each day, even if that is just reading something or making a minor decision.   We will do as much as we can to keep costs down and hopefully the preparation we do now will make the build itself go more smoothly, thus saving some potential costs.  We are also in the caravan brigade and hope to be moving into it early next year to knock down the bungalow we are currently living in. Going to plumb a toilet into an old wooden playhouse to save money on toilet rental.....(cost savings to be made everywhere!).  Hope to start slab / build in March/April (fingers crossed).   You are welcome to visit (we are south Oxfordshire).  

[Jeremy Harris]

We're over that, around £1380/m², but much of that is our awkward site plus opting for relatively expensive interior stuff, like solid oak for the stairs, skirtings, architraves, door frames etc.  These would have been around 1/3rd of the cost had we opted for painted softwood.

 

I worked on the basis of doing as much as I reasonably could to keep costs down, so I did all the plumbing, hot water, heating, cooling and MVHR installation, as well as fit the kitchen, utility, bathrooms and WC out.  I also did pretty much all the internal oak joinery, except hang the doors and get a hand to put the oak stairs in (because of the weight, mainly).  I used a main contractor on a firm price, competitively let, contract, for the ground works and drainage, another main contractor (MBC) on a firm price, competitively let, contract for the foundation system (inc the floor slab with UFH), frame design, erection, insulation etc to the rain-proof stage.  I then used other contractors (again, all on competitively let, firm price contracts) for the roof, fascias and guttering, solar panel install, external doors and windows.  The laying of the travertine stone flooring was labour-only, as was the internal decorating, plasterboarding, plastering and first and second fix electrical work.  I used a a local landscaping contractor to lay the drive, patio, paths, walling etc.  I laid the bamboo flooring (and my knees and back still remind me about it..........).

 

For that we have a house that is finished to a medium to high standard, exceeds the PassivHaus standard in terms of performance, generates more energy over the course of a year than it uses (so the only bill is the Council Tax, and half that is subsidised by profit from excess electricity generation).  Including the house and contents insurance, the maintenance costs for the sewage treatment plant and borehole water supply, and the Council tax, the house costs around £700 - £800 a year to run.  That includes about half the cost of running my car, too, as that charges from excess solar generated electricity much of the time.

 

For comparison, our old three bedroom bungalow, built in the early 1980's, with gas central heating, good loft and cavity wall insulation and reasonably good uPVC double glazing costs a bit over £3400 a year to run, including all the bills, Council Tax, insurance etc.

[Bitpipe]

50 minutes ago, Weebles said:

 We no longer have an architect (£12K seemed a bit steep for building regs and some drawings). 

 

Funny, that's when we parted company with them too (same architect).

 

Discharge of PCs is easy once you have all the facts in hand (depends on your conditions, we had 19 I think) and if you use a decent independent BC then you should have no issues - teh detailed design from MBC was sufficient to satisfy them and the rest was pretty straight forward (water calcs etc..).

[Bitpipe]

1 hour ago, dogman said:

Hi,  we are another MBC client,  And are not that far from you on the Oxon border, currently at first fix but we are doing everything ourselves. If you want pop down and see us as it often helps to see first hand and we are on our third self build Ours is 300sq m and will be less than 300k finished 

I visited a lot of members homes before we started and are happy to return the favour 

 

I really advise this, not only do you get inspiration and advice but you also get confidence to do it, plus its a good way to pick up trades and suppliers and avoid mistakes that others have made. 

 

[Gone West]

Any forum member is welcome to visit our build if it would help them. Anything to help stop some of the stories told on here.

[Jeremy Harris]

2 hours ago, PeterStarck said:

Any forum member is welcome to visit our build if it would help them. Anything to help stop some of the stories told on here.

 

 

Same here.  Around half a dozen or so forum members have visited us - we're around half way between Salisbury and Shaftesbury, about a mile off the old A30, in a small village called Fovant.

[Ferdinand]

Editing.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Ferdinand

[SteamyTea]

5 hours ago, Weebles said:

we are taking one small step at a time, trying to deal with one small job each day, even if that is just reading something or making a minor decision

That is the way to do it, set achievable targets and get on with them

4 hours ago, PeterStarck said:

Anything to help stop some of the stories told on here.

A good rumour is halfway around the world before the truth has its pants on!

[dogman]

6 hours ago, Alex C said:

I will come and buy you a pint

The Bell in Aldworth

So far we have had no professional fees at all(big saving)

All the work ourselves other than a digger and driver for 4 days.

The frame and founds were by MBC

3g passive aluclad windows and doors

Render by a Prorend approved render company

The plastering will be by a company as well.

 

Everything else is us even the electrical donkey work with the electrician doing design and checks with final testing and sign off.

 

We are not cutting corners with some good quality bathrooms and a Howden Kitchen and a granite slab on the island

solid oak doors skirting etc solid oak winder stairs

Solar in roof panels, Sunamp, and heat pump

 

A lot is down to hours of shopping around. ie the oak ledged and braced doors came in at  £115 inc hand made furniture.

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

It'd be interesting to try and estimate how much money this forum has saved members, just from sharing experience.  I strongly suspect it's a pretty hefty figure.

[AliG]

What helps is giving you the confidence to argue about costs. A few times I have had to hold my ground that quotes were too expensive and have saved serious money.

 

Working full time at the other end of the country means I have to use an architect and main contractor to oversee the build. I reckon I could have saved 10% of the cost if I could have got quotes on everything myself. As was said the only person interested in keeping costs down is you, the people building your house generally want the easiest solution not the cheapest.

[lizzie]

If anyone wants to come and see my MBC build and learn from our mistakes on costs overspend then you are very welcome.  Think it will be a super house but coming in at about £400 a sq ft when the local rate is nearer 3 for good spec we will be dead before it reaches. a level when it is valued at anywhere near what it cost so hope we dont need to move soon!

 

We are in the Midlands near Stratford uon Avon.

[oldkettle]

I just wanted to say big thank you to @Visti for raising this question and to everybody for weighing in. This is an very helpful topic for us during our planning stage.

[PeterW]

2 hours ago, JSHarris said:

It'd be interesting to try and estimate how much money this forum has saved members, just from sharing experience.  I strongly suspect it's a pretty hefty figure.

 

A conservative estimate given we now have over 800 members I would put at over £1m......

 

That may sound a lot but if you think only 10% of the members are actively building that is a saving of £12.5k each .... I reckon so far it’s saved me £5-7k at least and I know there will be many who have saved a lot more ..!!

[nod]

It’s very easy to overrun on costs 

weather you are running the project yourself or employing a Architect or project manager

They certainly won’t be poring through spread sheets at after midnight like we all have done or are likely to be doing in the coming months

 

i had a good chat with Ian regarding unscrupulous builders and trades people

im 56 now and been in the building trade all my adult life I’ve run my own business since I was twenty

Im still hearing the lame excuses for not turning up or trying to cut corners as you all are 

I’m only onsite Friday to Sunday

and each evening So have ended up doing a lot of the work myself

as you can’t be there all the time

I would say if your not happy with something Insist that it has to be re done Even if it means things fall behind a little

At the end of the day You are the client 

[Ferdinand]

@Visti

 

OK. I promised some comments about broader site strategy. 

 

1 - You can make a significant difference by what services put in when (and how), whether you get a storage container, and what you buy-then-sell (eg scaffolding, digger) or build-then-use (eg outside loo not portaloo or potentially storage office which turns into garden office) rather than rent,  and how you sequence it.

 

2 - Consider bringing your energy, comms and water services to one or more kiosks or services box on the edge of sit, which gives you those services to use and means your contractors can take them further as needed without outside company buggeration and expenses. You also get proper supplies on site without having to pay for temporaries. Consider plumbing mains waste in early such that you can connect a loo to it. Put the loo where it can be removed again, or make it a permanent "forever loo" or something that is big enough (handwashing for builders in there too) that can turn into eg a potting shed or similar (garage?) in future, or just storage-with-a-sheltered-hose-connection eventually.

 

3 - Do what the big builders do with their and put down a drive sub base good enough to use and take heavy lorries etc, and finish it at the end.

 

4 - Think about storage first, and how you will keep it or remove it. On your site I would consider running in a 40ft storage container down where the drive will be to the back garden, or perhaps a combo office-storage Portable Building (which will come wired, windowed, clad inside and somewhat insulated). Then take it out at the end before you finally finish your drive / build the carport, or leave it in forever; that last may depend on the planners and what you ask for in the PP.

 

Probably bring it in after the sub base drive is down, for ease of lorry or skate access to bring it in.

 

Might be worth considering 2x20ft if they can be HIAB-ed directly.

 

My dad once bought a nearly dead 40ft refrigerated (for the insulation) lorry trailer when he moved site, filled it up for its last journey, and backed it into his new yard as a storage facility. Was there for 18 years.

 

4 - I wonder if it is worth you investing in a 12 month subscription to SPONS, as you are very early in your process and profiling all your costs.

 

@recoveringacademic has a sub and has posted repeatedly of the benefits.

 

5 - A final curve ball. Given Gravenhill, is there anything you can share with neighbours either side (leave a hole or a removable section in the fences), or rent to them, to reduce costs for both or make a few hundred £££. One aspect might be a water or energy supply or £15 a week for access to your outside built-in site loo if you have yours in early, or kit. 

 

Think about all these in advance too, and do them once.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited November 4, 2017 by Ferdinand

[ToughButterCup]

6 hours ago, nod said:

[...]

They certainly won’t be poring through spread sheets at after midnight like we all have done or are likely to be doing in the coming months

[...]

I would say if your not happy with something Insist that it has to be re done Even if it means things fall behind a little

At the end of the day You are the client 

 

Amen to that.

 

The trouble is (well it is for me) the assumption that due diligence is enough to filter contractors with a poor record. In my case, it did. But it couldn't filter for poor management of staff during the build. Couple that with the pressure we all feel to  get the job done (code for reduce-the-stress-of-the-build-process) and you have a significant brake on that reinstatement process.

 

Where do you draw the line? 2mm out of plumb? 6mm over 3 vertical meters?  C25 not 35? How does a domestic client know the difference? Who out of all of us has done a slump test on delivery  BEFORE pouring? Bird's mouth beautifully seated on the wall plate, or one which would accept a 50p piece? 

Well, not to worry, it'll settle. 

 

@nod knows his stuff. I don't. And every trades person knows he knows his stuff. (But, he tells me that occasionally they still try it on - quite a relief that ,  in a masochistic sort of  way)

And they know I don't know my stuff.

 

Buildhub is the mainstay for me in bridging the gap between complete naivety and a fighting chance of getting work done to a reasonable standard.

[ToughButterCup]

10 hours ago, JSHarris said:

It'd be interesting to try and estimate how much money this forum has saved members, just from sharing experience.  I strongly suspect it's a pretty hefty figure.

 

Just one sentence each (from @PeterW and @Calvinmiddle) plus a casual remark from our SE  saved £13,500.  

 

[Gone West]

6 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

@nod knows his stuff. I don't.

 

You are knowledgeable about Durisol, one of very few builders in the country who are. You'll soon be an expert and advising people about Durisol. Don't underestimate what you know.