Expected architects fees?

[flanagaj]

We are purchasing a property that needs to be extended and modernised.   The appearance it pretty much already agreed, as we are going to mirror the next door property.   Basically after a service for the following.

1)   Drawings and ideas for room layouts

2)  Get planning application in and then provide structural drawings

3)  Maybe manage the build to plate height, but if this is expensive we might just get a single contractor for groundworks / super structure to plate height

 

It's a two storey extension and a single storey extension of ~ 120m2 total floor space.

 

Any advice as to potential costs / other options that might be worth exploring. 

[nod]

I would go to a Structual Engineer for the drawings Architects drawings are rarely practical Where as the the SE drawings are worked from a practical point of view Which May suit you better if you have decided on the look 

Architects tend to do a minimum package SE will bill you for hours spent Much cheaper Most SE will do your submission also 

[FuerteStu]

9 hours ago, nod said:

I would go to a Structual Engineer for the drawings Architects drawings are rarely practical Where as the the SE drawings are worked from a practical point of view Which May suit you better if you have decided on the look 

Architects tend to do a minimum package SE will bill you for hours spent Much cheaper Most SE will do your submission also 

My architect charged me double what my structural engineer did. 

 

 

And it was clear that the Architect just copy and pasted most of his work. His designs were unworkable too (steel sitting on a non-load bearing internal wall)

 

Wish I'd never used him, and he had good recommendations too, I'd hate to think what one of the bad ones would have produced

[Big Jimbo]

I have just used a structural engineer for my drawings and structural calculations. I will have to add some information to them to make them complete for Building regs submission, but not a great deal. The last time i used an architect, i got something that could not actually be built. IMO, an architect is good for initial ideas, but at the point you are happy with basic layout, i would hand it over to a structural engineer.

[nod]

2 hours ago, FuerteStu said:

My architect charged me double what my structural engineer did. 

 

 

And it was clear that the Architect just copy and pasted most of his work. His designs were unworkable too (steel sitting on a non-load bearing internal wall)

 

Wish I'd never used him, and he had good recommendations too, I'd hate to think what one of the bad ones would have produced

Exactly 

man’s a Structual engineer is more like to point out something that will cost you a fortune 

Where architects love spending your money 

[ETC]

12 hours ago, nod said:

I would go to a Structual Engineer for the drawings Architects drawings are rarely practical Where as the the SE drawings are worked from a practical point of view Which May suit you better if you have decided on the look 

Architects tend to do a minimum package SE will bill you for hours spent Much cheaper Most SE will do your submission also 

Time to bash the architect - again!!

[ETC]

29 minutes ago, nod said:

Exactly 

man’s a Structual engineer is more like to point out something that will cost you a fortune 

Where architects love spending your money 

Are you sure he was an "architect" - bet he wasn't!

[ETC]

30 minutes ago, nod said:

Exactly 

man’s a Structual engineer is more like to point out something that will cost you a fortune 

Where architects love spending your money 

And bash again. You guys really do not like architects. The truth is that 90% of the drawings done in this industry are not done by architects - plan drawers! Check who you employ for starters - an architect should (and is legally obliged to) agree the cost of his services with you before he lifts a pen (well in this day and age a mouse).

[Blooda]

If you changing the layout of the existing, as others have said, get an SE in and have a look round the place see what you can do and what you can't do [easily].  

Show homes are a great source of finding what you like and what you don't, and how things can flow.   Take a tape measure. 

We used to tell a fib about looking in the area, but during our build we came straight out with it, and told them we were self building and looking for inspiration, so avoiding the sell.

 

 

 

 

[ETC]

12 hours ago, flanagaj said:

We are purchasing a property that needs to be extended and modernised.   The appearance it pretty much already agreed, as we are going to mirror the next door property.   Basically after a service for the following.

1)   Drawings and ideas for room layouts

2)  Get planning application in and then provide structural drawings

3)  Maybe manage the build to plate height, but if this is expensive we might just get a single contractor for groundworks / super structure to plate height

 

It's a two storey extension and a single storey extension of ~ 120m2 total floor space.

 

Any advice as to potential costs / other options that might be worth exploring. 

If i was in your shoes I would speak to your neighbour to start with - if you like the look of his house ask him who did the drawings and go from there.

 

Whoever you choose tell them EXACTLY what you want and ask them for a fixed fee for this service - including all expenses, printing, mileage and so on - plus VAT. You could also ask for an hourly rate to be kept on the end of the telephone.

[Papillon]

I don’t understand the need to bash architects. I (architect) use the SE sparingly as he charges more per hour than I do, and I want what’s best for my customers. 
 

Hope your SE knows all the planning and building regs, and can design a workable and attractive plan, because most I’ve met are not planning or design creative. 
 

OP, depending on where you live and the size of your house, I would expect to pay maybe about 2-3k for each stage.

[Kelvin]

On 07/09/2023 at 10:53, ETC said:

Time to bash the architect - again!!

My one experience of ‘a proper’ architect practice  was woeful and negligent frankly at every level of dealing with them. Their comms was shockingly poor, their drawings full of inaccuracies, shambles over setting the house on the land costing me weeks of delay, errors in planning submission, non existent site management that led to build problems, inability to manage their main contractor and a general lack of care. I even had to research and draw the visibility splay and tell them to submit what I drew as they wanted to hire a consultant! They are all members of the ARB and this was under an RIAS contract. Colour me cynical. 
 

My wife’s father was an architect and he was very good. He worked closely with an SE so never drew anything that couldn’t be built. They both worked into their 80s too and specialised in old buildings. It always drew a smile when these two old buffers turned up to a site in an old Bentley and proceeded to clamber up onto church roofs etc. He made two simple suggestions for our house build that the actual architect we were paying really ought to have suggested. Sadly passed away before we achieved final planning permission although my other half is glad to some extent, that he didn’t witness the shambles Heb Homes and their builder made of our simple two rectangles house. He would have been apoplectic and probably given him a heart attack. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Kelvin

[ToughButterCup]

On 06/09/2023 at 22:39, flanagaj said:

...

Any advice as to potential costs / other options that might be worth exploring. 

 

Ask your architects whether they can offer this sort of predictability in terms of cost .

It worked for us: the eventual charge was lower than the advertised fee.

 

 

[Dave Jones]

architect is worth their money to just design the end appearance.

 

Keep them far far away from the actual build as you can. Will save you a lot of £££ in the long run.

 

and never pay a % fee to anyone.  Worked well with the agent. Last house agreed £3k fee if sold under £xx £5k fee if its over. Gives them much more incentive than a percentage.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Dave Jones

[ETC]

5 hours ago, Kelvin said:

My one experience of ‘a proper’ architect practice  was woeful and negligent frankly at every level of dealing with them. Their comms was shockingly poor, their drawings full of inaccuracies, shambles over setting the house on the land costing me weeks of delay, errors in planning submission, non existent site management that led to build problems, inability to manage their main contractor and a general lack of care. I even had to research and draw the visibility splay and tell them to submit what I drew as they wanted to hire a consultant! They are all members of the ARB and this was under an RIAS contract. Colour me cynical. 
 

My wife’s father was an architect and he was very good. He worked closely with an SE so never drew anything that couldn’t be built. They both worked into their 80s too and specialised in old buildings. It always drew a smile when these two old buffers turned up to a site in an old Bentley and proceeded to clamber up onto church roofs etc. He made two simple suggestions for our house build that the actual architect we were paying really ought to have suggested. Sadly passed away before we achieved final planning permission although my other half is glad to some extent, that he didn’t witness the shambles Heb Homes and their builder made of our simple two rectangles house. He would have been apoplectic and probably given him a heart attack. 

I am very sorry to hear of your experience - it really isn’t - or shouldn’t be the norm.

 

You should have determined your contract with them and made a complaint to ARB and RIAS. There is no place for incompetence in the profession. Smacks of inexperience to me.

[ETC]

5 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

architect is worth their money to just design the end appearance.

 

Keep them far far away from the actual build as you can. Will save you a lot of £££ in the long run.

 

and never pay a % fee to anyone.  Worked well with the agent. Last house agreed £3k fee if sold under £xx £5k fee if its over. Gives them much more incentive than a percentage.

Never ever agree on a percentage fee - it’s a lazy way to determine a fee. Get them to actually work out what it will cost them to do the work.

[ProDave]

22 minutes ago, ETC said:

Never ever agree on a percentage fee - it’s a lazy way to determine a fee. Get them to actually work out what it will cost them to do the work.

When I built my first house, 20 years ago, I approached two architects.  Both quoted fees based on a percentage of construction costs, and to add insult, both estimated construction cost at nearly double what it actually cost (I could not have afforded it if it really cost what they estimated)  Neither would budge on those fees.  Neither got my business.

 

It had the effect of making me never ever want to try and do business with an architect ever again.

[HughF]

We’ve just appointed one for our side extension:

 

”

Our fee to prepare suitable layout plans, elevations and sections of the above brief would be £1000+VAT. This fee includes revisions as required to amend the scheme to a design you are happy to progress to the planning stage with. This fee also allows for submitting the planning application to BANES City Council and liaising with the appointed case officer should concerns be raised. If the LA request additional information, we will update you and propose suitably qualified professionals. The planning fee paid direct to BANES is currently around £250, we would update you on this fee and give instruction on how and when to settle the fee once the application has been submitted. This fee is based on us not carrying out a measured survey and redrawing plans you already have from when the property was fully refurbished.

You have confirmed you do not require building regulation compliant drawings, but should these be required let me know and I can prepare a quote.”

 

I was perfectly happy with that figure, which seemed perfectly reasonable for the following scope of work:

 

”

To conclude from our meeting, you are looking to carry out a two storey side extension replacing the outbuildings on a similar foot print as to not upset the neighbours and the local context. You would like to create a two storey extension that would accommodate the new stair accessing first floor from ground floor and delete the existing which would open up the current lobby area and leave room for storage of coats and shoes. The rest of the ground floor extension would facilitate a dining area connected to the kitchen and downstairs shower room for gusts, whilst allowing for all future happenings.

To the first floor, you would like to create an open mezzanine/landing space which would act as a library/crafts area. Windows would be strategically positioned to make the most of the views, and possibly a corner glazed window should this be appropriate.”

Edited September 9, 2023 by HughF

[Kelvin]

31 minutes ago, ETC said:

I am very sorry to hear of your experience - it really isn’t - or shouldn’t be the norm.

 

You should have determined your contract with them and made a complaint to ARB and RIAS. There is no place for incompetence in the profession. Smacks of inexperience to me.

They were and are in breach of contract. The house as built isn’t quite what was designed. I’ve spoken with the ARB already. The slight challenge is my issue isn’t with an individual architect it’s with the practice generally as you deal with multiple people when working with them. 

[ETC]

16 minutes ago, ProDave said:

When I built my first house, 20 years ago, I approached two architects.  Both quoted fees based on a percentage of construction costs, and to add insult, both estimated construction cost at nearly double what it actually cost (I could not have afforded it if it really cost what they estimated)  Neither would budge on those fees.  Neither got my business.

 

It had the effect of making me never ever want to try and do business with an architect ever again.

I agree wholeheartedly - the higher the cost estimate the higher the fee. No incentive to design something cost effective.

[AliG]

Both times I have been involved in a build, we agreed a fee as a percentage of a very reasonable build cost and fixed it. If costs then came in higher, there was no extra payment to the architect.

 

This seemed a fair balance to me although the architect complains he underpriced my build.

 

He does agree that there is no reason to be paying your architect more if you specify a fancy kitchen or bathroom as could happen on a straight percentage basis with no cap or fees would have exploded along with build costs in the last three years.

 

 

[ETC]

14 minutes ago, AliG said:

Both times I have been involved in a build, we agreed a fee as a percentage of a very reasonable build cost and fixed it. If costs then came in higher, there was no extra payment to the architect.

 

This seemed a fair balance to me although the architect complains he underpriced my build.

 

He does agree that there is no reason to be paying your architect more if you specify a fancy kitchen or bathroom as could happen on a straight percentage basis with no cap or fees would have exploded along with build costs in the last three years.

 

 

And if the costs came in lower?

[Kelvin]

The worst one is the QS wanting a percentage of the build cost. HH have a retained QS they ‘encourage’ you to use. I didn’t for several reasons: He was an arse to deal with, the cost was horrendous given it’s a kit house so almost 50% of the cost is literally done for him, he asked me to send him all the quotes I had already got for him to format into his spreadsheet and send it back to me for £2500 😂 His total cost would have been close to £12k. I did it myself plus estimators on-line. 

[nod]

33 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

The worst one is the QS wanting a percentage of the build cost. HH have a retained QS they ‘encourage’ you to use. I didn’t for several reasons: He was an arse to deal with, the cost was horrendous given it’s a kit house so almost 50% of the cost is literally done for him, he asked me to send him all the quotes I had already got for him to format into his spreadsheet and send it back to me for £2500 😂 His total cost would have been close to £12k. I did it myself plus estimators on-line. 

There’s no need for a QS on a one house build 

[Gus Potter]

On 07/09/2023 at 10:53, ETC said:

Time to bash the architect - again!!

Don't worry the big wheel will turn, BH can be a bit of a bear pit at times.