A rant about prices

[ProDave]

I needed some timber today so off to the local builders merchant.  Timber has gone up by a jaw dropping amount, I have not actually worked out what percentage, but enough to make me question have they made a mistake?

 

I also bought a roll of corner joint tape, that was £20, I could have bought the same from Screwfix for £16.

 

I am just about sick of "wholesalers" of all varieties, they seem to have lost the concept of selling cheap to tradesmen (and self builders).  It is ludicrous that you can buy the same stuff on line and get it posted to you for less.

 

I need a load of timber cladding for my sun room. I am going to have to do some serious phoning around to try and get that down to the best price, including looking at on line prices.

 

And while i am ranting about prices it is not just building materials.  We need a new aquaroll for our caravan (google it if you don't know what it is)  I can buy one on line for £38 including postage from a dealer in NI on ebay.  The local caravan dealer wanted to charge me £65 to pick one up off his shelf and walk out with it.

 

Just WHY is it cheaper to buy on line which includes sometimes expensive postage?  no wonder the High Street will soon be something we only have memories of, and in future we will try to describe to our children how in the olden days, you used to drive into town and go and buy stuff from a shop and take it home with you.  They will probably laugh.

[PeterW]

2 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Timber has gone up by a jaw dropping amount, I have not actually worked out what percentage, but enough to make me question have they made a mistake?

40% from March 2020 to June 2021…. 

[joe90]

I popped into my builders merchant today where I bought nearly all my materials fir my build, I asked about sourcing materials and was told they are struggling to get stuff and prices all over the place. I am glad I have finished my build.

[Pocster]

Walk on glazing soon be cheaper than timber ….

[SimonD]

3 hours ago, ProDave said:

I am just about sick of "wholesalers" of all varieties, they seem to have lost the concept of selling cheap to tradesmen (and self builders).

 

I need a load of timber cladding for my sun room. I am going to have to do some serious phoning around to try and get that down to the best price, including looking at on line prices.

 

I've avoided my local builders merchants like the plague for my build, but might have to use them for some things soon. For me it beggars belief that I have to go in there not knowing what price I'm actually going to pay for a particular product without waiting to see if the person on the till is in a good mood or not, or having to go through the painful process of getting a quote. It's like something out of the industrial age and they haven't moved on since.

 

I've recently found it amazing what I can get delivered on the various pallet networks, for not a lot of money.

 

I got a quote for 19mm x 100mm interior cladding (cover of 86mm) a few weeks ago and it was £1.16/m plus the VAT at the timber merchants I use.

 

32 minutes ago, joe90 said:

I am glad I have finished my build.

 

Lucky you! I'm currently mid way and unlike @ProDave's rant, my daily tantrums can't be published. It now just takes something like nobody having some basic stainless steel screws in stock so I can finish a job to push me over the edge! I've also been sitting there looking at three different options for fitting out the first floor due to both price and availability problems - the original design looks like it's now out of the window unless I want to sit tight and wait to see if things settle down.

[ProDave]

I gave up using electrical wholesalers years ago due to the pricing policy and often lack of stock.  You can get a better selection, cheaper prices and quick delivery from the likes of Screwfix, Toolstation, TLC-direct and CPC.

 

When I buy the timber cladding for my sun room, I am seriously going to see if I can buy it on line somewhere.

[recoveringbuilder]

We bought some bags of cement 3 weeks ago and there was no problem, I’ve today been speaking to the rep about some other stuff we’re needing and he said they’re really struggling with everything now can’t get cement, slabs anything at all really, he said it’s a good job you’re not building your house now!

[SuperJohnG]

6 hours ago, PeterW said:

40% from March 2020 to June 2021…. 

Timber prices mor dramatically dropping in the states which is good news 

[SteamyTea]

12 hours ago, ProDave said:

It is ludicrous that you can buy the same stuff on line and get it posted to you for less.

Why, there is a totally different economies of scale and a larger customer base.

 

9 hours ago, SimonD said:

I've avoided my local builders merchants like the plague for my build, but might have to use them for some things soon. For me it beggars belief that I have to go in there not knowing what price I'm actually going to pay for a particular product without waiting to see if the person on the till is in a good mood or not, or having to go through the painful process of getting a quote. It's like something out of the industrial age and they haven't moved on since.

They have an old business model and weak management structures.

I go to two retailers that sell similar products, one, on the face of it, offers a huge discount, until you get to the till.  Then you find out that you have to buy something else at full price to get the discount.  Even the store staff hate it.

 

I would have thought that the last year would have been the ideal opportunity for businesses to reassess their pricing policy.

[dangti6]

14 hours ago, ProDave said:

Just WHY is it cheaper to buy on line which includes sometimes expensive postage?  no wonder the High Street will soon be something we only have memories of, and in future we will try to describe to our children how in the olden days, you used to drive into town and go and buy stuff from a shop and take it home with you.  They will probably laugh.

 

Overheads.

 

There is a very very old school electrical shop near me. Chap sits in there all day every day in the dark and I never see anyone in there, yet they must sell enough in order to keep afloat. 

 

The sad reality is, he would probably be better off locking the front door and racking the place out top to bottom and moving online. Although I must state that selling online can be very much a race to the bottom. 

 

A mix of both is nice. I bought some LED lighting panels online at the best price I could find and the website was an electrical wholesaler up north. When the delivery date was missed I spoke to a very well sounding older gent from what sounded like the shop counter which was refreshing rather than a call centre. Canny guy too as the order was drop shipped direct from the manufacturer Eterna so just shows how businesses can be operated so differently today.

 

Which will last the longest...

[Bitpipe]

I've seen it explained before that trades are less price sensitive as they pass the cost onto their clients. Their concern is cash flow and credit, which the BMs provide.

 

Direct to consumer is highly price sensitive which is why the online model works so well - the likes of Amazon use dynamic pricing to track competitors and general demand, it's all very sophisticated. On line also means you can offer a much wider range.

 

The likes of Screwfix and Toolstation seem to have the balance right though, although they don't do the bulk products BMs specialise in.

[dpmiller]

I fear most trade merchants live off the back of the big contracts. Accounts with the Councils, Govt departments, big manufacturing etc. Cost not an issue, discounts not requested...

 

Similar online too. RS Components have a massive stockholding and excellent response. As do Farnell. But CPC is just another arm of Farnell and they sell most of the same stuff but cheaper. The first to are go-tos for the Agencies and Industry, the other where trades and retail go when they can wait a day or two for stock...

[jack]

16 minutes ago, Bitpipe said:

I've seen it explained before that trades are less price sensitive as they pass the cost onto their clients. Their concern is cash flow and credit, which the BMs provide.

 

Also, a lot of trades aren't sourcing stuff weeks or even days in advance. I regularly witnessed trades finishing one job, then having to go out in the middle of the day and buy stuff to start the next. Had they thought ahead, they could have grabbed stuff on their way in rather than making another trip, or even ordered online and gotten it cheaper, but they didn't seem fussed. I assume they also get stuff cheaper from the big builders' merchants than anyone walking off the street would manage.

 

I used to get frustrated about always having to ring all three of the local BMs for pricing every time we wanted something in a hurry. It seemed completely random who'd give us the best price on any particular item, and the difference was often 20-30%, even though we had accounts with them all. At least with online you got to see exactly what brands are in stock, and get clear upfront pricing.

[Lorenz]

I am just reading this and part of the choice of the builder is going to be how much he gets back from the merchant. 10-20% seems normal. It is a problem if you let your builder go and try to replace or get your money back on things he ordered wrongly and also find you have been paying for other things that have not been used on your job.

[djcdan]

I order bulky items (block/cement) from our merchants and aggregates from the local quarry, but literally everything else comes from online retailers. As well being MUCH cheaper, the selection on offer with online retailers is far larger in comparison to BM's allowing me to find the precise product I want/need.

 

I daren't think how much a budget could slip if I only used a local BM for all materials.

[SimonD]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

I would have thought that the last year would have been the ideal opportunity for businesses to reassess their pricing policy.

 

I'm sure the market will change eventually. One small change I've noticed recently is that Travis Perkins online prices are now much more reasonable then they ever where before. They now actually reflect a real world price rather than the massively inflated prices of yesterday. Even Jewson has started giving some prices on the website.

 

56 minutes ago, Bitpipe said:

the likes of Amazon

 

I wonder whether Amazon will provide the impetus on some of this stuff. I found the Spax stainless steel screws I needed, sold and delivered by Amazon on next day through prime (Screwfix couldn't give me an availability date for their stock). I've also just ordered some Aluminium Butyl tape, again on prime. Amazingly, for one particular need, I bought bags of 5 and 10 small stainless bolts for pennies each from the marketplace. The other thing with Amazon is that I've found some small independents using the marketplace by buying items and they send a business card with the order for future supplies. I like to avoid Amazon whenever I can but when needs must and all that..

 

1 hour ago, dangti6 said:

the order was drop shipped direct from the manufacturer

 

I've dealt with a few suppliers like this now, from nail gun nails to guttering to render. Works really well.

 

25 minutes ago, Lorenz said:

part of the choice of the builder is going to be how much he gets back from the merchant. 10-20% seems normal.

 

If you're lucky enough to find a builder who'll tell you what discount they get. You'll probably also find that you get an add-on for materials supply by them - sometimes 10-15% rather than the discount passed on. To me that's not entirely unreasonable as one thing I've learned is just how time consuming ordering and arranging material logistics is, particularly when dealing with archaic BMs!

[Lorenz]

52 minutes ago, SimonD said:

 

If you're lucky enough to find a builder who'll tell you what discount they get. You'll probably also find that you get an add-on for materials supply by them - sometimes 10-15% rather than the discount passed on. To me that's not entirely unreasonable as one thing I've learned is just how time consuming ordering and arranging material logistics is, particularly when dealing with archaic BMs!

This is not a discount, this is the percentage they get back at the end of the year or whatever period they arrange. Does not show on the bill, one of the perks, don't know who it goes to when councils etc pay the full price.

[Cpd]

1 hour ago, SimonD said:

You'll probably also find that you get an add-on for materials supply by them - sometimes 10-15% rather than the discount passed on

This is what I used to do in Australia, I would shop around for the best price and quality and then add on 10-15% and the final price would reflect the average price that the client could easily find, this way I made a bit on materials which paid for researching, finding, purchasing and supply. If the job was bigger 10k -50k then you could make a substantial bonus on the material part of the job but spread out over the time the job took it was always reasonable. 

[WWilts]

Lumber & raw materials prices have started coming down. Hope the correction continues. As long as people don't panic-buy prices might come back to affordable levels.

 

https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lumber

[PeterW]

Just now, WWilts said:

Lumber & raw materials prices have started coming down

Assuming you mean global trading prices ..? I am due another increase in timber on 1st July so would anticipate it will be Q4 before we see any decrease in pricing. 

[jack]

2 hours ago, Cpd said:

This is what I used to do in Australia, I would shop around for the best price and quality and then add on 10-15% and the final price would reflect the average price that the client could easily find, this way I made a bit on materials which paid for researching, finding, purchasing and supply. If the job was bigger 10k -50k then you could make a substantial bonus on the material part of the job but spread out over the time the job took it was always reasonable. 

 

Also, if you supply materials, you're responsible for replacing them if something goes wrong. I have no issues with people marking up if they're expected to be responsible for them. Even if they can get a refund from their supplier, any parts failure will need time to rectify/replace that they won't be able to get back.

[Hilldes]

20 hours ago, djcdan said:

As well being MUCH cheaper, the selection on offer with online retailers is far larger in comparison to BM's allowing me to find the precise product I want/need.

 

I daren't think how much a budget could slip if I only used a local BM for all materials.

I have bought loads of materials from our local Jewson for our build - not just blocks, sand, cement, below ground drainage and timber but whole house worth of insulation, Velux windows and Marley Alutec fascia and guttering for example. In every case they have been able to match or beat prices of the web-only shops.

[ToughButterCup]

23 hours ago, jack said:

...

Had they thought ahead, they could have grabbed stuff on their way in rather than making another trip, or even ordered online and gotten it cheaper, but they didn't seem fussed.

....

 

They're not paying for it @jack, the customer is.  

Selfbuild is Self-interest writ large. Trades have zero incentive to save on materials. Unless intelligent engagement with the whole build kicks in. 

 

How many of us here have - on our own sites -  been horrified at the waste, ullage, overage, call it what you will on-site? On ours, I nearly decked one oaf for simply destroying 7 or 8 Durisol blocks. 

That bit of vandalism caused the loss of £1000 worth of concrete. I've already explained how we adjusted for that bit of rank stupidity...

[jack]

14 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

They're not paying for it @jack, the customer is.  

Selfbuild is Self-interest writ large. Trades have zero incentive to save on materials. Unless intelligent engagement with the whole build kicks in. 

 

Yes, but on a fixed price job they're wasting their own time by travelling in the middle of the day, and had they planned ahead, they'd have spent less money on materials (maybe quite a lot less) and hence had higher profit. This sort of behaviour is a perfect counter-example to the "rational actor" so loved by economists.

 

But of course, you're right that it's the customer who pays in the end.

[markc]

Couldnt agree more, ive been involved with some major building projects where the waste angered me ... Truck loads of bricks being unloaded from the trucks straight into skips because of a design change or over ordering. and now involved with Railways where many projects are cost plus (to save money) but the contractors throw loads of unnecessary plant, materials and equipment plus labour on site because they will get paid for it plus a mark up.