Pulling the final trigger... to selfbuild or not to selfbuild..

[puntloos]

So -  I have the plot, I have the planning permission, I have the detail design (still polishing somewhat), tendering to start shortly but I think I have the money.. 

 

We will soon have to make the final final "let's do it" decision, and we are wondering how you handled that one!

 

What were your worries and did they happen or not?

What were your reasons to think that building was better than just buying 'on rightmove'?

How did you 'insure' bad things would not happen, e.g.;

• Evil people
  • Builder going bust (and not insured?)
  • Builder/Trade being crap at their job and having to tear everything down to fix it
  • Builder unethical in some way asking $$$
• Something holding up the build majorly
  • House catching fire during build
  • Brexit, Covid, Rain during pour..
  • Critical deliveries (say: windows) delayed for months
• Disappointment
  • House turning out to be crap 1 day after receiving the key
  • House being worth 30% less than the money you put in
  • Impossible to heat, cool, noise.. whatever
• ...

 

Tell me some stories  - how did you arrive at the conclusion this all was a good idea, and were you right, wrong, sortof? 

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by puntloos

[ProDave]

For us the decision was made that we WILL self build before looking for the plot.

 

MOST of the potential issues you list can be largely solved by you being actively involved at least as project manager if not actually doing much of the work, and making sure the detail is done right with no corners being cut.

 

The thing that went "wrong" for us was assuming we could just sell our old house (we needed some of the money from it to build the new one)  Never under estimate the fickle housing market not long after a "bust" where the market was stagnant and very little was selling.  We gave up after 3 years on the market and agreed to let it instead.  That left a £70K hole in the budget to build.  From that we became masters of building as cheap as possible (cheap price not quality) mostly by doing so much of the work ourselves, and we have ran for 5 years as a "build as you earn" funded largely by the rental income from the old house.

 

On the plus side, although it has taken longer than we ever imagined, we have built the new house now without touching the capital from the old one, so when we do eventually sell it, that's more in the retirement pot for us.

 

 

[Moonshine]

32 minutes ago, puntloos said:

So -  I have the plot, I have the planning permission, I have the detail design (still polishing somewhat), tendering to start shortly but I think I have the money.. 

 

We will soon have to make the final final "let's do it" decision, and we are wondering how you handled that one!

 

I am about the same stage as you, we have now made the choice to build, we have 60-70% of the build cost secured and building reg drawings about to go in. The avalanche is about to be set off, hopefully in May.

 

Our biggest hurdle is getting the right ground worker involved at the right cost, as its a big part or build with the excavation and basement walls as well as phasing the works. So far a quote that i have had is both scary and disappointing, waiting on others to come back to me.

 

My biggest concern is ££££, as i have a good idea of what is being built as i did the detailed design, and am next door to the site so can actively manage. The architect who did the planning has check my detailed design and will be active during construction doing the PCC 

 

I am having days when i think Jesus what am i taking on, but some days things come together.

 

We do have a bit of security in the fact that we 'made' our plot and build cost really really really should not exceed the house value at the end (hopefully by a lot!)

[markc]

Get on with it ... I have the money, the know how and the ability to build but can i hell as find a suitable plot

[recoveringbuilder]

1 hour ago, puntloos said:

So -  I have the plot, I have the planning permission, I have the detail design (still polishing somewhat), tendering to start shortly but I think I have the money.. 

 

We will soon have to make the final final "let's do it" decision, and we are wondering how you handled that one!

 

What were your worries and did they happen or not?

What were your reasons to think that building was better than just buying 'on rightmove'?

How did you 'insure' bad things would not happen, e.g.;

• Evil people
  • Builder going bust (and not insured?)
  • Builder/Trade being crap at their job and having to tear everything down to fix it
  • Builder unethical in some way asking $$$
• Something holding up the build majorly
  • House catching fire during build
  • Brexit, Covid, Rain during pour..
  • Critical deliveries (say: windows) delayed for months
• Disappointment
  • House turning out to be crap 1 day after receiving the key
  • House being worth 30% less than the money you put in
  • Impossible to heat, cool, noise.. whatever
• ...

 

Tell me some stories  - how did you arrive at the conclusion this all was a good idea, and were you right, wrong, sortof? 

 

First house we decided to build as we reckoned we could build something twice the size of anything we could buy for the same money, most things went well with it but it did give an understanding of what could go wrong, mostly with tradesmen, never ever wished we hadn’t done it.

second house had many problems, again mostly with tradesmen but also with money, we built a far bigger house than we could really afford and at times thought we’d never afford to finish it but we did after using every penny we could get a hold of. 
this house was supposed to be perfect as we thought we’d experienced everything we possibly could, unfortunately not and we faced lots of challenges with things we’d never given a thought to but we worked through them all and gained a whole lot more experience.

would never wish we hadn’t built any of them, the original £40k we spent in 1992 has now got us into a house worth at least ten times that which wouldn’t have happened if we’d bought an off the peg house way back then for the same amount of money. I have loved everything I have learned in the last 30 years and would start another tomorrow if the right plot came up!

Edited March 31, 2021 by recoveringbuilder

[nod]

It took us seven years to find the first plot

Everything went to plan We’ve been in just over two years and are about to complete on our second plot Great price and location The only downer is we’ve had to buy two plots 

Don’t over think your build Problems along the way are nearly always minor ones 

Pull the trigger 

 

[nod]

14 minutes ago, recoveringbuilder said:

ve learned in the last 30 years and would start another tomorrow if the right plot came up!

They just don’t understand us ?

[Jilly]

My partner says I have started to catastrophise over this build, so it has changed me, I used to be very confident and have accomplished much in a previous life, but I may have commenced from a difficult emotional starting point, and that was the cause, so it's not a fair comparison. Looking at your list there, it could be you are inclined the same way. I won't lie, worrying about those things you have described has given me bad sleepless nights, but I have learned to distinguish between severe anxiety and just normal, understandable worry. When I read about Toughbuttercup's problems I realised mine were minor in comparison.

 

I think you need a lot of resilience to do this, because the financial uncertainties can be frightening, so make sure your mental health is good and that your coping mechanisms are robust. If you can slum it, you will have less financial pressure to live on site in a static. You know yourself, so play to your strengths and minimise your weaknesses. 

 

The people who seem to relish this the most seem to be incurable optimists with a very strong vision plus excellent core competencies to either earn well or do the graft themselves. 

 

[ProDave]

For me the self build has been largely a good experience. This is our second and i would not rule out a third but no plans at the moment.

 

Self build is not however just a process on it's own.  Most will have something to sell to make the self build possible.  And of course you have to find and buy a plot.

 

What this experience has confirmed though is my total and utter hatred for the property buying and in particular selling process.  We have probably been unlucky but the property market is a miserable thing with far too much positive feedback which makes it flip from a slump where nothing sells to a boom where everything sells quickly.  When we tried to sell we hit a slump, this is the FOURTH time in my life I have tried to sell a property in a slump.  It is a thoroughly demoralising experience and it is THIS bit of the process that I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to ever repeat again.

 

TIP:  If my house is on the market, you can probably take that as a sign that the housing market is in a slump and don't bother trying to sell yours.

 

The irony of course is if we did not have a tenant in the place just now, our old house would probably sell in a flash.  Why could some of the people that would queue to buy it now not have wanted it 4 years ago?  They could probably have bought it cheaper than now and without the hassle of having to bid against others to do so.

[nod]

33 minutes ago, Jilly said:

My partner says I have started to catastrophise over this build, so it has changed me, I used to be very confident and have accomplished much in a previous life, but I may have commenced from a difficult emotional starting point, and that was the cause, so it's not a fair comparison. Looking at your list there, it could be you are inclined the same way. I won't lie, worrying about those things you have described has given me bad sleepless nights, but I have learned to distinguish between severe anxiety and just normal, understandable worry. When I read about Toughbuttercup's problems I realised mine were minor in comparison.

 

I think you need a lot of resilience to do this, because the financial uncertainties can be frightening, so make sure your mental health is good and that your coping mechanisms are robust. If you can slum it, you will have less financial pressure to live on site in a static. You know yourself, so play to your strengths and minimise your weaknesses. 

 

The people who seem to relish this the most seem to be incurable optimists with a very strong vision plus excellent core competencies to either earn well or do the graft themselves. 

 

Very well put 

I would just add to above 

Don’t worry about something that you can’t do anything about 

[mike2016]

I had a site, planning and tendered but the prices I received were not realistic. One builder I'd pinned my hopes on didn't even respond. Maybe the spec was too much, but I pulled out but hope to return in 3-4 years when I have more equity. I can extend the planning another 5 years in ROI easily enough for €65 so don't feel the investment is lost. 

 

So, advice - be honest about what you can afford and negotiate any offers with what you are comfortable doing yourself to get it within budget. Go for it! 

 

Get yourself the best people you can find, Federation of Master builders would be my go to and word of mouth if I was in the UK.

 

Credit check all the big players. Solicitor Escrow account for big deposits if you can rather than hand the money over months in advance. Good insurance for you, your site and check all the contractors ones out as best you can. 

 

And use the resources and advice here to check anything you're not sure about. Photos and your questions can catch something quick enough to prevent bigger problems later on. 

 

Take lots of photos and videos of progress each day, handy for many reasons! 

 

Oh, and enjoy the journey!

 

[joth]

Build Vs buy: for us it was all about location. We could get a house the quality we wanted, OR in the location we wanted, but odds of finding both together vanishing close to zero (and the cost would be incredible). Plus we felt build (deep renovation) allows really meeting our specific needs like no purchase would

 

Finally Pulling the trigger: mostly because after 2 years we were tired of talking about it and wanted to move on with our lives. At that point We'd realized a full rebuild would be about the same price but even better quality/choice, but couldn't face another 2 years to reset and replan so pushed us to go on. Still very happy we did, although with retrospect of course the COVID delay meant it went slower than we wanted after all that. 

 

Things that can go wrong. For me the underestimation was the energy it requires. Nervous energy. After 14 month build, keeping tabs on contractors and trades (or lack of) almost everyday, my nerves are shot. The financial side was kept in pretty good shape throughout really, but constant feeling of predicting what might go wrong next and putting stuff right when it does is unbelievably tiring. No idea how I could have insured or hedged against this, except quit the day job. (without a doubt the only way I could do a build again is if it was my sole full time focus)

 

[Declan52]

There's no sugar coating it, doing a self build is hard hard work. Shat will happen and end up causing you sleepless nights, stress and plenty of grey hairs and wrinkles but when it's done and 99% finished and your sitting in your new house enjoying a gin/whiskey/wine you will forget all that's went before.

Do lots and lots of research and never ever be afraid to question something that doesn't look or sound right. Just a simple reply like" you couldn't go over that again as I can't quite work that out in my head" might help you sleep a bit better as that extra bit of understanding between you and the tradesman got you on the same page.

Being organised is vital. Having all your choices made way before you need to will help the job run smooth. Ask around your local area with regards finding a builder who has done some self builds to do the job or get something like a timber frame package which can eliminate a lot of the risk.

And remember to breathe. Things always go wrong no matter how good you or the builder are. Deliveries don't arrive, wrong materials get sent out and nothing can find a water pipe hidden behind plasterboard quicker than an apprentice and a cordless screwdriver. 

Good luck.

[Gus Potter]

7 hours ago, puntloos said:

So -  I have the plot, I have the planning permission, I have the detail design (still polishing somewhat), tendering to start shortly but I think I have the money.. 

 

We will soon have to make the final final "let's do it" decision, and we are wondering how you handled that one!

 

What were your worries and did they happen or not?

What were your reasons to think that building was better than just buying 'on rightmove'?

How did you 'insure' bad things would not happen, e.g.;

• Evil people
  • Builder going bust (and not insured?)
  • Builder/Trade being crap at their job and having to tear everything down to fix it
  • Builder unethical in some way asking $$$
• Something holding up the build majorly
  • House catching fire during build
  • Brexit, Covid, Rain during pour..
  • Critical deliveries (say: windows) delayed for months
• Disappointment
  • House turning out to be crap 1 day after receiving the key
  • House being worth 30% less than the money you put in
  • Impossible to heat, cool, noise.. whatever
• ...

 

Tell me some stories  - how did you arrive at the conclusion this all was a good idea, and were you right, wrong, sortof? 

 

I'll touch on the soft skills.

 

Most of us are not daft, yes we have our daft moments from time to time, posting on BH is probably one of mine. A while ago there was a sales theory called the FUD factor. You can read about this on the web (for some on BH.. to take you back..Motorolla / Six Sigma etc..)  but it goes; fear, uncertainty and doubt. You puntloos may be at the uncertainty stage?

 

I would start to talk to builders, they will be keen as you now have your permissions. They will take your job as a live job that is worth them putting a bit of effort into getting.

 

Don't forget that this is a people business, builders are people too. Some are great, the best will guide you, deliver what you want, look after you..you can become long term friends!

 

Trust your gut feeling. Open up and start talking to builders, tell them what your are worried about..discuss the technical aspects with them. The builders you want will answer a lot of these questions. You will need to put a bit of work into finding them as they will be very busy. These builders are not cheep but you get what you pay for.with. A good team can work together to get the job done.. you.. the builder and designer!

 

Have a look at this people side of things and it can take a lot of worry out a job.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bitpipe]

Few observations here... for us we had already committed by moving into the house to be demolished and locating a caravan in the garden but had lots of delays which is where our stress was. Also felt queasy watching the old house getting flattened though, point of no return and all that.

 

The build itself was fine - things you worry about tend to be OK and the things that catch you out are things you never thought too deeply about.  e.g. I was super stressed about the basement (contractor 1) lining up with the TF house (contractor 2). No issues. But I never though the airtightness of the house would impede the resin flour pour (humidity was too high) and that caused stress.

 

I think the number one stress is usually financial - do you have the cash and a reserve to build what you want and to deal with hiccups? 

 

Next up, do you know what you want and is it clearly described / documented and understood? The majority of trades can usually do what you want (within reason and budget) but only of there is no ambiguity. The best way to avoid that is to be present to be asked questions and to pick up on issues early.

 

If you have very high expectations and are asking for things outside their norm, make sure that is understood at the outset and re-inforced as you go, but also be realistic on what is achievable on your budget.

 

Don't ever be afraid to ask what's going on - not in a confrontational or critical way but in a 'I'm not entirely sure what's happening, can you explain'. Ask open questions such as 'what are my options here' or ' how would you do it if it was your house' - I found that a good way to get defences lowered and the trades were more likely to be candid if they did not understand the brief.

 

Remember that every problem can be fixed but some errors you can live with and some you will want put right. 

 

Most importantly be there - I realise that's not an option for everyone but all my issues happened when I was away from site for a week or so (e.g. business trip).

 

It will challenge both your physical and mental health - try not to over dramatise or castrophise what might happen. If you did that every day you would not be able to exist. Just do your research, accept that things can go wrong, always have a 'how can we fix this' mentality and you will be ok.  

[patp]

How long have you lived in the new build area? Our big advantage was that we have lived in the same village as the plot for 40 years. We knew people who knew people. I would not have said that before we started but that is how it turned out. A local farmer had, in another life, been a top notch digger driver for the big builders like Persimmon. My hairdresser told me this fact. A neighbour in the village was doing a self build (a huge house) we got chatting and he ( owner of a civil engineering firm) told us that his amazing bricklayer was looking to retire soon but would take on a bungalow if one came along. Yes, we are building a bungalow

The local builders merchant has been a good source of information. One of the salesmen is a neighbour and he told us about a really good roofer - Keith. Now Keith should be a project manager because, not only is he an excellent roofer and fitter of solar panels but he recommended brilliant scaffolders, great carpenters, great solar panel supplier and electrician but he sorted all these trades out for us and had them all arrive on site on time. He even chased up the builders merchant if they were holding things up.

The only major problem we had was the windows. As rookies we ordered them early and left the wrong drawings with them. They should have noticed, apparently, but didn't. We ended up relying on our brickie to build us out of a hole. The joiners learned a lesson for them to get the drawings from the architect not the client. 

 

All of our trades rely on word of mouth among the community here. It is a rural area and word will spread fast if someone is unreliable or shoddy in their work.

 

We have been building through the wettest winter in a hundred years, covid and the finding of a four inch water main slap bang under the plot. The building is now water tight and we need to sell our existing property to continue. Bit nervous, now, reading the above experiences of selling in order to finish the build.

[Pocster]

Took 5 years to get planning after nearly going bankrupt during the last recession. 
So bloody minded absolute determination. Unless I attempt every possible route until success I won’t stop ( bit like the terminator but better acting skills ). Reasons to self build not employ builders etc . 

Cost 

Also I want to do it

Lots of ‘professional’ trades are shit .

It’s a mountain to climb - so climb the (expletive deleted)er 

[Pocster]

16 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

fear, uncertainty and doubt

You nailed it with that !

Fear of failure . Spiralling costs etc .

Uncertainty because you don’t know what you are doing and either have to learn or pay someone to do it .

Doubt . Will I finish ? . Will it be up to my expectation ?

 

If I can do it - anyone can ! Grow a big pair like me ?

[puntloos]

Awesome discussion. Just a few thoughts:

 

My stresses are different than my partner's - she worries about hard to predict edge cases that will somehow cause us to fail outright, effectively leaving us with semi empty bank accounts and no house to show for it. I'm much more relaxed about total failure especially since we are reasonably financially secure to do it. Recommended buffers in place and all that, but I do worry that I will not be able to spend enough time on it and that I will regret things and beat myself up over my 'laziness' 

 

 

And that laziness especially comes through on the oft-repeated "problems with trades". I do worry that I will miss things I will bang my head against the wall for. This is why I've been talking about contractors and advisors quite a bit, we have already spoken to a bunch of people for this, but well, can't pay them to care, and hard to find people who are passionate (they exist of course but hard to know who is just putting on an act to sell me..)

 

20 hours ago, Jilly said:

My partner says I have started to catastrophise over this build, so it has changed me, I used to be very confident and have accomplished much in a previous life, but I may have commenced from a difficult emotional starting point, and that was the cause, so it's not a fair comparison. Looking at your list there, it could be you are inclined the same way.

Not me, at least not in a 'problematic amount', primarily my partner.

 

20 hours ago, Jilly said:

I won't lie, worrying about those things you have described has given me bad sleepless nights, but I have learned to distinguish between severe anxiety and just normal, understandable worry. When I read about Toughbuttercup's problems I realised mine were minor in comparison.

How did you distinguish? Any tips? Rules of thumb? 

 

20 hours ago, Jilly said:

I think you need a lot of resilience to do this, because the financial uncertainties can be frightening, so make sure your mental health is good and that your coping mechanisms are robust. If you can slum it, you will have less financial pressure to live on site in a static. You know yourself, so play to your strengths and minimise your weaknesses. 

 

The people who seem to relish this the most seem to be incurable optimists with a very strong vision plus excellent core competencies to either earn well or do the graft themselves. 

Describes me reasonably well. Optimistic, and "project management" is a skill close to my day-to-day job skill. 

 

As for @nod's "Don’t worry about something that you can’t do anything about" - ah but we're worrying we should have worried! META! 

@mike2016 - FMBuilders sounds a very helpful tip, will certainly look there!

@joth - we've debated the dayjob/sabbatical thing. Ha, with covid I've saved up so many days I could probably work half days for months in a row at this point. but yeah, nervous energy of things falling into place, and plenty of stories around things showing up late here on buildhub..  I've been lax about the time this all takes, but covid is only a partial excuse.. tough. 

 

2 hours ago, Bitpipe said:

Few observations here... for us we had already committed by moving into the house to be demolished and locating a caravan in the garden but had lots of delays which is where our stress was. Also felt queasy watching the old house getting flattened though, point of no return and all that.

 

Ha thankfully we have zero binding the the current house, never actually lived there, really only the location that made us buy it. But yeah it is destroying 'value' which would be a shame in some ways. Financially eh, there's always the chance of losing more than you'd like, but - assuming the tendering comes back at-or-near our estimates (and we had a QS do these) we should not have to sell organs as long as no "stack" of bad luck hits us. 

 

Could we survive the UK dropping to WHO tariffs on trade? Probably.. but that AND a stock market crash AND getting fired because my company figures out I'm crap.. yeah..

 

2 hours ago, Bitpipe said:

I think the number one stress is usually financial - do you have the cash and a reserve to build what you want and to deal with hiccups? 

 

Never enough cash but the recommended buffer is in place. 

 

2 hours ago, Bitpipe said:

Next up, do you know what you want and is it clearly described / documented and understood? The majority of trades can usually do what you want (within reason and budget) but only of there is no ambiguity. The best way to avoid that is to be present to be asked questions and to pick up on issues early.

Well, I'll be close (house is 5m away) but can't just up and leave from work.. and even if I could, I'm not a builder so there's only so much common sense I can have. 
 

2 hours ago, Bitpipe said:

If you have very high expectations and are asking for things outside their norm, make sure that is understood at the outset and re-inforced as you go, but also be realistic on what is achievable on your budget.

 

But wouldn't that be pre-agreed? What type of things can they bring up during build?. I guess stuff like "there's a well under your house, do you want to fill it or .. " could have a cheap and an expensive solution..

 

2 hours ago, Bitpipe said:

Don't ever be afraid to ask what's going on - not in a confrontational or critical way but in a 'I'm not entirely sure what's happening, can you explain'. Ask open questions such as 'what are my options here' or ' how would you do it if it was your house' - I found that a good way to get defences lowered and the trades were more likely to be candid if they did not understand the brief.

 

Good point, thank you

2 hours ago, Bitpipe said:

Most importantly be there - I realise that's not an option for everyone but all my issues happened when I was away from site for a week or so (e.g. business trip).

 

Yeah, I don't think I'll be away away but not really on hand anytime. Doesn't video calling help?

 

2 hours ago, Bitpipe said:

It will challenge both your physical and mental health - try not to over dramatise or castrophise what might happen. If you did that every day you would not be able to exist. Just do your research, accept that things can go wrong, always have a 'how can we fix this' mentality and you will be ok.  

 

Thanks ?

 

[nod]

There will be lots of things that you can do nothing about 

Delays with materials and trades 

Deadlines being missed etc 

All will happen You will have to try not to take it personal and focus on other things 

[patp]

We went on a self builders course run by the Potton people. One of the things he kept repeating was .............".and then book two weeks in Torremolinos ". We thought a little mini break after every major stage sounded a really good idea............. And then came Covid  When all hell breaks out on site, and we are tearing our hair out, we open a bottle of wine and say - "isn't it nice here in Torremolinos?"

[andy]

I'm still in the process (adopting the MVP/aka agile approach to house building!) but I would say key things that worked for us have been the following:

• Manage it yourself - if you have the time and enthusiasum, then it's a good thing.  If you are OCD about finished product you are after, it's a must.
• Where possible stick with single trade on site at a time - yes, it takes longer but it's so much easier to handle any decisions that will crop up
• Don't scrimp on the things you cannot change - fabric first
• And if you are doing the first one of managing it yourself, live with the fallout of no escape for a long time...
• Biggest challenge we've had was groundworks in the wet winter from hell last year on a sloping site - with aesthetic, time and money implications... doing it again I'd start groundworks more like March

 

[Faz]

• Don't scrimp on the things you cannot change - fabric first

This!

 

Things will happen that require on site solutions all of the time no matter how good your drawings are - you just have to get it sorted.  No point in sleepless nights - its not going to change anything.  Engage with the trades and all will be well.

 

Building houses is not rocket science - even Persimmon manage it after a fashion!!!

 

Even big house builders cock things up - I drive past a 65 house scheme on the way to site and they were using the same floor system I used (Floorspan E Floor+) and I do glance in as I drove by and thought something wasn't quite right - they were up to splash on about 40 plots.  Turned out that they forgot to install the periscope vents to the sub-floor in all of them - had to demolish 2 sides of each house to rectify (you can't cut them in) - ooops.

[Moonshine]

2 minutes ago, Faz said:

• Turned out that they forgot to install the periscope vents to the sub-floor in all of them - had to demolish 2 sides of each house to rectify (you can't cut them in) - ooops.

 

Ouch, reminds me of where builders haven't put weep holes in above openings and have cut the end of the weep hole and put that in the mortar / render making a fake one

[Faz]

Mind you - I have never seen anything dripping out of a weep hole in my life!

 

In any event that is carefully drilling out a perp joint to miss the cavity tray not demolishing half of what you built!