Concrete pour in heavy rain.

[zoothorn]

One thing I just find depressing, is this consensus that the builder hasn't done anything other than follow the plans chock full of mistakes I gave them. Its just so untrue & the total opposite. Its dreadfully wrong, & I do not care one iota how ever many club together nodding with each other agreeing. Not -one- person has even SUGGESTED that the builder might have done a mistake.. & only yesterday they were saying how bad he was, trying to convince me I was wrong when I said I trusted him. Once I show clear cut evidence that he IS untrustworthy/ bad.. eveyone jumps on board his ship pointing out 'he's only done what he could'. Why does this antipathy twds me exist?? its just anything I say/ refute, anything I draw/ xyz wrong.. only for the logic that I don't have the experience they have.

 

Not one person DARES to even say even tentatively 'you could be right, it looks like you might have a case'.. not even daring to cross the line in my favour. Its ridiculous.

[zoothorn]

@Tennentslager but back-filled.. with what/ from where?? how, just piles against the side of the build in the gap?? that wouldn't be allowed by BCO surely, so, a trench/ retaining wall is needed. A trench I do not want, or a wretched retaining wall either (& at whose cost if so?)

[Pocster]

I reckon this thread could beat @Onoff ‘s for the longest eventually  . @zoothorn stay frosty ! ?

[Declan52]

It doesn't matter what went wrong or who is to blame, that can wait till you have the full details of what your builder is putting down on top of that slab. 

So as has been pointed out numerous times mark a line on the outside of your house where you think finish floor level is. Get the builder round and let him explain how he is going to get you to that point and most importantly right it down so there is absolutely no room for error. If he can't explain how to get there as you think it's due to an error then he has to fix it, simple his mistake his cost end of discussion.

Until you give him the chance to explain what his method will be you are just worrying about things that might not be an issue.

As for covering the wall is there any of that black dpm lying about that you can nail to your wall to provide a bit of cover. Some nails through a length of lath would be better to account for the bumps.

 

 

[redtop]

48 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

That's perfectlu reasonable as to a suggestion, but it doesn't address any of the main problems. The internal H now is irrelevant in terms of a problem. The exposed old area, the trench dug around, the height of the top of the 2x 9" block as it is relative to adjacent ground all -cannot- be remedied by this.

 

Only if another block course + concrete pour to remedy the situation, could some of these be addressed. My builder will no way on earth do this by 1st agreeing that its an error (bc he's decades of experience knowing how to play such an argument, knowing full well already that a mistake has been made so expecting the conversation/ primed rready with ab or c excuse, playing it that no not them but rather IM fully responsible.. just like some on here seem unfathomably to think). Its an asbsolute disgrace.

no blame needs to be identified at all.  By marking out the FFL on the wall you provide the builder with the perfectly reasonable response of 'we will get to that by using x mm insulation and then y mm screed'. Lets put it this way:- your BC has confirmed the insulation goes on top of the current concrete base.  Then they will screed.  So unless you know the thickness of the insulation you have absolutely no idea if the final level will be low, right or high or even if any mistake has been made.  regarding the trench, its been pointed out that is needed for the trade to work, why cant you just backfill to below DPC level once work is completed?

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

Not one person DARES to even say even tentatively 'you could be right, it looks like you might have a case'.. not even daring to cross the line in my favour. Its ridiculous.

I’ve said that and you ignored me. 
 

I’ve said (as have others) that you need to mark FFL on the wall, and then ask him how to get to it. 
 

You could well be right, but until we know if the slab is FFL, or what is going on top of that slab, then you could well be wrong too 

[zoothorn]

17 minutes ago, redtop said:

no blame needs to be identified at all.  By marking out the FFL on the wall you provide the builder with the perfectly reasonable response of 'we will get to that by using x mm insulation and then y mm screed'. Lets put it this way:- your BC has confirmed the insulation goes on top of the current concrete base.  Then they will screed.  So unless you know the thickness of the insulation you have absolutely no idea if the final level will be low, right or high or even if any mistake has been made.  regarding the trench, its been pointed out that is needed for the trade to work, why cant you just backfill to below DPC level once work is completed?

 

Ok so I mark on the wall the FFL level. My builder comes & says 'well a bit late to put that on now!!' (this is what he'll say, laughing at me, or in a grump at my audacity at this late stage). I can't now put a line & ask him to get me to it, its pointless IF he has the argument ready that I didn't put FFL on the plan NOT because this argument is valid -its not- but in order to cover for his guy's/ their mistake (he saw, checked, we both went thru & all looked fine- he didn't mention Id forgotten to put FFL on then). The btm of the big arrow of 2000mm is SO blindingly obvious as to be the damn flolor is seemed to me not in any question it could be anything else.

 

I understand it can be back-filled, & I know this can only be done up to dpc level: but the very trouble is here.. 1) from where do I get 3 tons of earth to do it? who does it? 2) the dpc level is 350mm LOWER than it should be, so any back fill can only get 1/2 way up. This will not satisfy BCO, so a retaining wall has to be introduced: who does this blockwork? who pays?

 

So what do you think the btm line of the 2000mm figure represents chaps? "well.. it could be a number of things" maybe? go on please someone tell me what on earth this could be apart from the floor. Anyone. Go on I dare anyone. Please.

[zoothorn]

3 minutes ago, PeterW said:

I’ve said that and you ignored me. 
 

I’ve said (as have others) that you need to mark FFL on the wall, and then ask him how to get to it. 
 

You could well be right, but until we know if the slab is FFL, or what is going on top of that slab, then you could well be wrong too 

 

I must have missed this then. I need(ed) to have marked FFL on the wall.. its too late now, its been built, 350mm lower than it should.

 

The slab there is 100mm shy of the FFL. I know this bc there's a lip of block 100mm above the slab pretty likely the insulation. Then the BO talked of chipboard floor.. which was alarming in itself/ another problem/ I do NOT ever ever want a chipboard floor in my workshop (I bet this  is exactly what mu builder plans to do, why? because its a fraction the time & cost of a proper screed floor.

[ToughButterCup]

@zoothorn. Switch your computer off right now.

I realise that I'm asking you something that's really difficult . Have a  well-deserved long weekend off

 

SWITCH OFF AND WALK AWAY   NOW  .. See you next week, eh? 

[zoothorn]

Just now, AnonymousBosch said:

@zoothorn. Switch your computer off right now.

I realise that I'm asking you something that's really difficult . Have a  well-deserved long weekend off

 

SWITCH OFF AND WALK AWAY   NOW  .. See you next week, eh? 

 

 

I can't ABosch.. I have to get onto builder, not to argue my case (its utterly pointless with his experience & my not putting FFL on plan he can pick up on knowing I'm cornered, & he has an escape route for a bad mistake).. but to see what the hell is happening re. the T Frame dims: if its already been started at 2000mm + 2300mm I'm utterly screwed.. & its court cases, as I will not accept the whole thing 350mm less tall than it should be. At least here I have diagramatical proof of the look/ height it should be, so, I hope now my builder has NOT gone ahead with the TF call (aware as he is of the 350mm mistake likely will help him not jump in yet). But who knows.. slim chance he might not be aware its all 350mm too low. But I doubt it knowing how thick these two are. But he's only been on site twice for 1/2 hr each time so fk only knows.

[zoothorn]

NOW can you see how this 350mm extra complicates almost every part of the job folks? Who pays the extra block clad course now to get the building up to where it should be? Do I have legal surity to get them to build up to this overall height? or, am I fkd & can now only legally expect an overall height of 2000 + 200 +2300 + roof? (IE the whole build 350mm shy of the original/ existing eaves- a total & utter disaster).

[Construction Channel]

27 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

So what do you think the btm line of the 2000mm figure represents chaps? "well.. it could be a number of things" maybe? go on please someone tell me what on earth this could be apart from the floor. Anyone. Go on I dare anyone. Please.

 

Unless it was labelled it could just be a crease on your photocopy. ( no one in their right mind would assume that but without annotation your argument is weak) 

 

Listen to a bosh. Go to the pub. Talk to the barmaid about her holidays. 

 

You're not in a good frame of mind right now and venting your frustrations on us isn't going to help anyone. 

 

Deal with the Dpm and ffl line tomorrow with a hangover. 

 

Best of luck with the builder. Don't forget it's your wallet that is really in charge. 

[ToughButterCup]

I realise my suggestion is a challenging one. 

I am not your mother, but my advice above borders on the inappropriate.  Neither Build Hub not I has a therapeutic relationship (duty of care) with you.  We cannot - accurately and with authority -  advise you to the extent you are asking. Asynchronous communication  (written text question and answer) does not support the level of detail you require.

 

The volume of advice you have received is vast. I realise also that you are communicating in what to you is probably an Additional Language. That makes your job of reading that advice  hard. It makes the job of respondents to your posts harder too. Your written style is sometimes challenging too.

 

Nothing is going to change if you have  a few days off.   Please, please,  have  a good rest. Come back next week.

 

Please.

[zoothorn]

@AnonymousBosch

 

 

understood- it is very hard for me I appreciate that comment. I do need a break but thing is I know my builder will want to cover his tracks/ cover this mistake (bc I could kick up a stink & demand xyz, as I should) & only way he covers tracks is to get onto TFrame Co as soon as/ order 2m + 2.3m.. to corner me "too late its ordered, well if you didn't put the ffl on the.." argument. I just know this is what he's done yesterday, before I'd realise the mistake & call him. He's not answering now which is 1st worrying sign. A disaster at very 1st stage.

[ToughButterCup]

I'm not your mum. 

We do appreciate your contributions: lots of people will have read your problem, have similar ones themselves and - on the basis of your interaction here -  worked out how to sort things out for themselves. 

 

Put some clothes on ( ?) and go for a walk. 

[redtop]

17 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

@AnonymousBosch

 

 

understood- it is very hard for me I appreciate that comment. I do need a break but thing is I know my builder will want to cover his tracks/ cover this mistake (bc I could kick up a stink & demand xyz, as I should) & only way he covers tracks is to get onto TFrame Co as soon as/ order 2m + 2.3m.. to corner me "too late its ordered, well if you didn't put the ffl on the.." argument. I just know this is what he's done yesterday, before I'd realise the mistake & call him. He's not answering now which is 1st worrying sign. A disaster at very 1st stage.

mark the wall, thicker insulation and its a job fixed with half a days work. even if you say 'yep its my fault ime a donkey and will pay' it will cost you less than going to court and for the stress it will save be worth it.  or mark it up and tell him he's wrong and has to fix it.  Or mark it up and let him tell you he was going to use thicker insulation and all is OK.  Do something, but certainly mark up the wall to prompt the discussion.  Don't try to second guess what comes next

[joe90]

+1 to the above by @redtop.

[jamiehamy]

2 hours ago, joe90 said:

+1 to the above by @redtop.

+2 - this problem is utterly trivial, it really is. It's a tiny area and will be super easy to rectify and not cost much. 

 

Waz down some insulation and concrete, job a good'un. Looking at the picture, it'll barely need a cube of concrete. 

 

 

 

[Russell griffiths]

Evening @zoothorn can you tell us honestly how much money you have paid the builder so far. 

 

Im not convinced that you haven’t paid him far too much, as I suggested you approach him for a discussion and if that discussion was unsuccessful then you part company. 

You seem very scared of upsetting him which leads me to the thoughts that you have stumped up a load of cash and are feeling scared you have made some bad choices. 

 

Now if this is true you need to say so, this way we can see how to rectify your height difference with the minimum amount of grief. 

 

If I have read this all wrong I apologise, and in which case you have nothing to loose. 

Fook him off, start again in the spring with a new builder and some better understanding of what you want to build and how to achieve it, because you need someone to talk you through each step so you are clearer when it is being done correctly and when it isn’t. 

 

[jack]

2 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

Evening @zoothorn can you tell us honestly how much money you have paid the builder so far. 

 

Im not convinced that you haven’t paid him far too much, as I suggested you approach him for a discussion and if that discussion was unsuccessful then you part company. 

You seem very scared of upsetting him which leads me to the thoughts that you have stumped up a load of cash and are feeling scared you have made some bad choices. 

 

Now if this is true you need to say so, this way we can see how to rectify your height difference with the minimum amount of grief. 

 

If I have read this all wrong I apologise, and in which case you have nothing to loose. 

Fook him off, start again in the spring with a new builder and some better understanding of what you want to build and how to achieve it, because you need someone to talk you through each step so you are clearer when it is being done correctly and when it isn’t. 

 

I agree with all this except for one thing: we have no idea what the builder is actually thinking. He may well be on target to deliver exactly what Zoothorn hoped for and drew, and quite possibly would be stunned that such a straightforward job (from his point of view) has run to 11 pages of discussion on a website before a block has been laid. At the moment, it could be as bad as @zoothorn is worrying about, but from my perspective that worry is based entirely on speculation.

 

I think that unless and until some form of communication with the builder takes place, talk of being stuck with the wrong outcome, or falling out with the builder, or firing the builder (etc, etc) are all premature.

[Mr Punter]

24 minutes ago, jack said:

 

I agree with all this except for one thing: we have no idea what the builder is actually thinking. He may well be on target to deliver exactly what Zoothorn hoped for and drew, and quite possibly would be stunned that such a straightforward job (from his point of view) has run to 11 pages of discussion on a website before a block has been laid. At the moment, it could be as bad as @zoothorn is worrying about, but from my perspective that worry is based entirely on speculation.

 

I think that unless and until some form of communication with the builder takes place, talk of being stuck with the wrong outcome, or falling out with the builder, or firing the builder (etc, etc) are all premature.

 

Bear in mind there were over 400 posts on his "Basic cement / Ballast" post and over 1600 on his "Help with kitchen renovation / 1st house" post.  I know he seems a bit spammy / troll-like, but I quite enjoy @zoothorn's topics, if not always his sometimes tiresome posts.

[Redoctober]

4 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

You seem very scared of upsetting him which leads me to the thoughts that you have stumped up a load of cash and are feeling scared you have made some bad choices. 

 

 

Nail. Head me thinks. Would explain a lot of the stress being mentioned. If this is the case, lets hope he can face up to it and then start receiving and acting upon some sympathetic advice etc.

[Pocster]

11 hours ago, Redoctober said:

 

Nail. Head me thinks. Would explain a lot of the stress being mentioned. If this is the case, lets hope he can face up to it and then start receiving and acting upon some sympathetic advice etc.

In my experience most “builders” when they appear to be ripping you off or lieing do respond to being stood upto . I use the exact language that I can’t use with a tenant who is confrontational. It’s very therapeutic to release all that frustration and anger . You also effectively drawing a line in the sand . Then it becomes shut up or put up . I know confronting people and potentially the risk of that becoming physical isn’t appealing , no one wants that . But it’s YOUR build , YOUR money - take control ; whether you are wrong or right . Alter the course of the builds destiny relies solely on you making it happen . ??

Edited October 18, 2019 by pocster

[zoothorn]

On 17/10/2019 at 13:38, redtop said:

mark the wall, thicker insulation and its a job fixed with half a days work. even if you say 'yep its my fault ime a donkey and will pay' it will cost you less than going to court and for the stress it will save be worth it.  or mark it up and tell him he's wrong and has to fix it.  Or mark it up and let him tell you he was going to use thicker insulation and all is OK.  Do something, but certainly mark up the wall to prompt the discussion.  Don't try to second guess what comes next

 

Hi chaps- took AB's advice & a few days off/ too stressful.

 

So the current situation is: I was entirely correct. A mistake HAS been made. I could tell this from builder's tone on the phone & his answers. So I called on fri, deep breath & dived in to find out WTF was going on. Me "we seem to be 350mm too deep, can you explain?".. him "no, no no its all fine".. me (suddenly concerned the site visit by TFrame Co had happened & all ordered IE deliberately before I cottoned on having seen the mistake & piped up about it) me "apparantly a site visit was due wed, no one came.. wondering if I was needed?". Him: "all done, all measured up (site visit did happen in record time by him & TF Co, without notifying me.. I was inside working all day assuming no work on site/ all quiet), on wednesday, all ordered". Me WHAT?! So.. panic/ suspicions all falling into place -as I knew but couldn't convince one of you-.

 

So builder is simply doing his thing & covering for no2's error by making it seem he's doing it the better way/ override my plan due to his experience. We both know otherwise. There is absolutely no point me falling out with him, or even putting my foot down to demand my floor level is adhered to & celotex & xyz made up to my FFL (as much as I should, & as much as I'd like to). No point, because I am alone here, english/ these guys are intrenched welsh locals, Id be abandoned for months if I kicked up a fuss.. which would mean triple the stress of it ias it is; no point. I have to go with the flow.

 

So, moving forward. What I did hear from him, thank goodness, was concilliatory 'tidying up' regarding the big excess of ground down to the new low level, by way of skimming off the drive area & feathering down to the dpm layer using hardcore (forming my path I never wanted around the perimeter).. & he said 'only a day of digger hire to do', & I'll need my fingers x'd the costs here don't spiral.. they shouldn't.

 

So bottom line is we're both aware of mistake, & we're at a parity by way of me not kicking up a fuss.. & him 1) adding this extra 350mm to my lower room [thank god he said this was the new plan] and 2) rectifying it later somewhat but without acknowledging a mistake made.. to save face.

 

Tricky- but my suspicions proven dead-on correct, we're both on good terms, I do have an extra ammount of room.. but at the expense of the stress for me of digging down an extra 350mm so close to orig house wall: now this is my biggest stress.

[zoothorn]

On 17/10/2019 at 22:54, Redoctober said:

 

Nail. Head me thinks. Would explain a lot of the stress being mentioned. If this is the case, lets hope he can face up to it and then start receiving and acting upon some sympathetic advice etc.

 

I have not made ONE bad choice. No. The builder remains as having the best reputation (he will cover the mistake so nobody hears of it). I have paid extra for his services. The fact that it was all too hastily cracked on with (any builder suddenly turning up at 3pm tues with digger & saying he's starting right now.. & on quizzing him why so suddenly & w'out warning.. "need to crack on.. concrete's coming tmrw").. plus watching him almost in a mild panic so quick he was doing including the critical measuring.. ALL OF IT SHOUTING AT ME MORE HASTE LESS SPEED!!

 

THIS IS THE SOLE REASON THE MISTAKE WAS MADE: TYRING TO CRAM IN TRENCHES DUG/ ALL PREPPED TOO FAST FOR CONCRETE POUR A MERE ~15 HOURS LATER. I hope this is now understood & I'm given a bit more respect frankly.