Acceptable joinery

[willbish]

Looking for some opinions please on how to find an amicable solution to the poor quality of this bespoke front door I have had made.

I don't think there is any doubt that the joinery is below par. See pictures below. I'm unsure how best to move forward and find a resolution that works for both parties.

I am tempted to reject the door and ask for a full refund. I don't think any repairs or bodges and able to bring the door up to an acceptable standard. I may be wrong. Maybe my standards are too high?

I've paid 90% for the joinery and have received the invoice for the final 10%

The issue with a full refund is three fold.
-The frame has been fitted prior to rendering. Removing would require making good of the external render. Would the joiner be liable for this cost? Yes. Would I successfully get the money for it though?
- If I received a full refund I would most likely commission another joiner to make a similar door. I haven't seen anything off the shelf (yet) that compares. Looking at 6months plus for design, manufacture & fitting
- Move in date is approaching. A secure temporary door will be necessary. Time, cost and general buggery required.

So I guess I need to decide whether incurring the above hassle is a better course of action than accepting and living with the defects.

Essentially the door works as designed, just about, for now. But Im pretty sure I can argue that it doesn't meet 'reasonable expectations'

50mm Celotex sandwiched inside. Triple glazed sealed unit. Double rebate with continuous twin seals and electronic lock (untested).

So here's the pictures of the poor joinery. I think as soon as the door moves even a millimetre it will not close, it is already touching the frame. The tolerances are too tight. What will it be like in a couple years.

1. Door hits lower keep. Simonswork Tectus 3D hinges are already adjusted as far as they can go.

 

2. Door touching frame as it closes. Keep with Ten-F function to be ordered

 

 

3. Something protruding through internal face.

 

 

4. Random screw hole on internal face

 

 

5. 2mm gap in joint

 

 

6. Spacer in sealed unit higher than timber

 

 

 7. Random machine marks, of which there are many

 

 

8. B*stardisation of door to accept lip of keep 

 

 

9. Machining damage to lock and door

 

 

10. Top of door, butchery

 

11. 2mm gap that moves when squeezed

 

 

 

12. More quality joinery at the bottom of the door

 

 

13. Mistakes plugged?

 

 

[willbish]

14. Bigger mistake plugged?

 

15. Hinge not recessed far enough into door

 

 

16. Wafer thin amount of wood material, how long will that last?

 

 

17. Yep splitting already

 

 

18. Quality

 

 

19. 

 

20. Looks alrite if you squint hard enough.

[Andehh]

That's really poor, apologies i can't offer a solution, but that's not acceptable by a long shot! 

 

Good luck! 

[Simplysimon]

i mentioned a week or so ago about 'people who work with water and 'leccy', that's been made by  someone who watched someone who worked with wood ?

in the last pic it looks alright as long as you don't look bottom right. not acceptable even in the dark, money must be returned and a new door made by a joiner to match frame and existing hinges, assuming they are ok on the standards. just realised pic 19 is standards so new frame needed as well.

door looks to be too thin to start, small claims court?

unfortunately there is always someone who accepts a job outwith their skill level and tarnishes the trade they are supposed to represent

 

[CharlieKLP]

Surely you ask them to remedy or replace it, and if you aren’t happy, you get your money back?

Edited February 1, 2022 by CharlieKLP

[Adsibob]

This is really shoddy work. I think you just need to ask for your money back as it seems unlikely that a second attempt will be much better. There are so many mistakes!

 If they get difficult, state your statutory rights in writing (fit for purpose, made with reasonable skill and care, of reasonable quality, of reasonable durability, free from defects, etc), attach all photos and explain why each photo shows a statutory right being breached, give them 21 days to resolve the issue by refunding you your money, and then sue them.

[Roundtuit]

Looks like they've taken on a job they're clearly not up to.  Another couple of tries and it might be half-decent.  I think I'd go gently at first, and see what sort of response you get. I'd be surprised if a serious joinery business would be happy putting their name to that.

[Makeitstop]

Looks like it was "machined" by someones team of pet beavers.

 

Absolutely unacceptable 

[Carrerahill]

4 hours ago, willbish said:

Looking for some opinions please on how to find an amicable solution to the poor quality of this bespoke front door I have had made.

Who made it? I am assuming not a proper door company, if so, start to kick up big time.

 

It looks like an aspiring craftsman made it, to be fair, whoever did it is getting there and this would be a good learners door, but I do agree it looks terrible. I suspect that they have maybe bitten off more than they can chew or had an apprentice make it.

 

You made a comment about the joiner being liable for the costs, so do I assume correctly that they made or had made this door? 

 

It could be cut out with minimal damage to your render and a good joiner could slot a new one in hard against the riser if they built the frame into the opening. A real craftsman could do this no bother with a little bead of mastic to seal up and cover any small damaged bits.

 

Or cut the old one out and then fit a new smaller one and put a trim around it, would not be ideal as you should have the clean, first install look, unlike the retrofit look.

 

As @Roundtuit says go gently at first, this could be someone's best attempt and they know it is not great. They might almost be expecting your call. When I was a student I never had a conventional job, I always did bits and pieces on my own, made good money at it too. I remember getting involved in putting lights into the garden of a family friends business premises. It needed some custom brackets so I made them out of angle and welded it all up, some of them looked mint, some were just a bit hashed together. I got away with it because they were up trees, but I always remember thinking, they sure were not going to break or fail, but boy were they rough. Had anything been said I would have, without hesitation, remade them from scratch, and having learnt from MkI, MkII would have been perfect! They were up there for over 10 years until the tree was felled due to rot.

 

What a waste of oak! 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Carrerahill

[Eric]

The more you look the worse it gets ?

 

I hope you manage to get a resolution.

[Gus Potter]

Pragmatically I would consider the following.

 

Show them what you think is wrong. The "Something protruding through internal face." is one point you can really hang your hat on. A lot of the rest, while unsightly is hard to benchmark against any standard. Yes the door is tight.. normal would be a 2.0mm clearance on an internal door.. 3.0 mm on an external door..when fitted in a mid range moisture content / environment (who decides what that is?) but who can say the reduced gap is not due to the moisture content of the surrounding fabric etc in your house?

 

I would open negotiation on say paying 25% of the cost.. thus you are asking for a refund but not all of it. At the end of the day you may get enough of a refund to be able to say.. hey we got a good quality door but badly fitted.. but for a good price. Once it all gets knocked about a bit then the current pain wears away? If the door sticks then a good joiner should be able to sort it out with a bit of thought.

 

From their point of view (supplier and fitter) it's not a total right off so your installation may come close to cost neutral from their point of view so they may play ball.

 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Gus Potter

[Adsibob]

35 minutes ago, Gus Potter said:

Pragmatically I would consider the following.

 

Show them what you think is wrong. The "Something protruding through internal face." is one point you can really hang your hat on. A lot of the rest, while unsightly is hard to benchmark against any standard. Yes the door is tight.. normal would be a 2.0mm clearance on an internal door.. 3.0 mm on an external door..when fitted in a mid range moisture content / environment (who decides what that is?) but who can say the reduced gap is not due to the moisture content of the surrounding fabric etc in your house?

 

I would open negotiation on say paying 25% of the cost.. thus you are asking for a refund but not all of it. At the end of the day you may get enough of a refund to be able to say.. hey we got a good quality door but badly fitted.. but for a good price. Once it all gets knocked about a bit then the current pain wears away? If the door sticks then a good joiner should be able to sort it out with a bit of thought.

 

From their point of view (supplier and fitter) it's not a total right off so your installation may come close to cost neutral from their point of view so they may play ball.

 

 

I disagree with this. You are entitled to reject the door and demand that they redo it properly or give you a full refund (their choice). Of course whether they actually oblige is another matter, and maybe that is what @Gus Potter is alluding to. If you don’t want to sue, and you haven’t paid by credit card, you might have to compromise.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Adsibob

[markc]

If going down the Legal route this could get costly and drawn out depending on the contract/order wording assuming it is in writing.

if you ordered a bespoke door to fit an opening, then they have supplied, just poor finish and workmanship (non gender specific of course).

I would say that unless you have a squeaky clean contract then Gus Potter has the best solution.

as for the door itself, it can be salvaged and made much better by a decent joiner ( again you need to be careful in what you are asking for, some joiners are only good for framing, others are great at kitchen and bedroom fitting but you want someone who repairs furniture etc) not cheap but if you get what you have for 25% ish then you are on a winner.

[Declan52]

I would try and salvage the frame as this would be the least noticeable and would mean you don't damage the structure removing it. The door on the other hand needs removed and cut into firewood. You could maybe live with a single one of them issues but that list of pictures showing all the faults is taking the piss. A joiner didn't build that. A 2nd year apprentice on a Fri afternoon knocked that together.

[willbish]

Appreciate all your responses and thoughts.

 

8 hours ago, Carrerahill said:

Who made it? I am assuming not a proper door company, if so, start to kick up big time.

It was made by a joiner, a one man band, who unfortunately came well recommended. His usual work is kitchens and cabinetry. 

 

 

8 hours ago, Roundtuit said:

I think I'd go gently at first, and see what sort of response you get. I'd be surprised if a serious joinery business would be happy putting their name to that.

 

8 hours ago, Carrerahill said:

 

As @Roundtuit says go gently at first, this could be someone's best attempt and they know it is not great. They might almost be expecting your call

This is the approach I am favouring but I am still unsure of what outcome I want. So reluctant to engage until I know.

 

It was/is an expensive door. If I accept a 25% or 50% discount Im not sure that is going to satisfy. I would much prefer a defect free door, even at an increased cost (have been back looking at UrbanFront website again!) However at this stage of the build, 4 years in, I'm ground down, I need to get it finished pronto. Finding the motivation to go back to the drawing board, quotes, design, lead times, is going to be tough when my focus is on getting the decorating started.

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by willbish
Urban Front not Urban Door

[Cpd]

I made my own doors and I am a stonemason NOT a joiner and I would be frustrated  with myself if I produced this. Yes it’s a really good attempt and if you had done it yourself you could live with it and chalk it down to good learning  but this is a meant to be a professionally made and installed door that probably cost more than my car. As much as a full refund would be nice I expect the write of cost for the joiner will be to much for him to stomach and he will drag his feet before finally just refusing to accept it’s below par. As Gus says you might get a significant (25%- 40% max) discount but that does not resolve the problem in your eyes. Very tricky situation. 

[joe90]

I like doing woodwork and build a quite a few things but decided the front door needed to be 100% right so left it to professionals (local joinery company who built all my windows and bifolds). If I made that door I would be very dissapointed (and not show anyone) I would refuse to pay fir that, simply not acceptable.

[ProDave]

14 minutes ago, joe90 said:

I like doing woodwork and build a quite a few things but decided the front door needed to be 100% right so left it to professionals (local joinery company who built all my windows and bifolds). If I made that door I would be very dissapointed (and not show anyone) I would refuse to pay fir that, simply not acceptable.

Like @joe90 I know my limits and precision joinery is not on the list.  I paid a trusted joiner to do my Oak kitchen worktop and hang my upstairs doors.  Unfortunately I could not get hold of him for the downstairs doors so I hung them myself. Even though my joinery is not perfect, it is a damn sight better than this door, just by doing things slowly and carefully.

 

Best of luck getting it resolved.

[Pocster]

10 hours ago, Makeitstop said:

Looks like it was "machined" by someones team of pet beavers.

 

Absolutely unacceptable 

Or they used my special "DeWalt Squirrel Saw" as suggested by @Mr Punter

[Makeitstop]

3 hours ago, pocster said:

Or they used my special "DeWalt Squirrel Saw" as suggested by @Mr Punter

 

Yeh, with broken teeth

[Makeitstop]

One or two very slight errors or incorrect cuts is one thing, (although still not really acceptable on a quality bespoke product) but that has far too many issues to be tolerable.  Anything puncturing or severely marking the visible faces is just not on, not at all. It needs to "look" perfect.

 

You absolutely must not pay anything for this, and whatever you "might" have paid by way of deposit, you should seek a refund. Whether it's the first time the person has made this type of product or not is irrelevant, they have accepted the job and are seeking to charge you for it, therefore, it needs to stand up to any reasonable competitors work. It isn't difficult to argue it does not do that.

 

The problems this displays appear to be so easily avoided too, so my question would be why weren't they? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr Punter]

I think as a finished oak door there is not much hope for it.  At the risk of offending @willbish, would there be any mileage in perhaps filling, sanding and painting part of the door and frame?  I would still expect a refund of at least 75%.  The joiner could either accept this or arrange a full refund or replacement, which, on the basis of the door you have, would probably not be up to standard either.

 

 

[willbish]

Joiner has had the defects highlighted to him.
I've raised the idea of a return and refund. Before asking for that I feel obliged to allow him the chance to repair/replace.
I've asked that he try to do this within 21 days. Think that seems reasonable.

He has responded that he will be back next week to "sort it out".
I don't have much faith that repairs are possible and I think he may be wasting his time, polishing a turd springs to mind.
However I shall leave him to it and review in 3 weeks.

[Dave Jones]

burn it and get a composite.

[Simplysimon]

20 hours ago, Carrerahill said:

 

It looks like an aspiring craftsman made it,

first year apprentice, owners son and handless