Timber frame quotation - bit of a shock!

[LnP]

We just had a quotation from Fleming for a timber frame kit. It's for a 236 m2, dual pitch roof, gable ends and one dormer. We specified attic trusses for future development of the roof space but a cold roof, i.e. insulation stops at the first floor ceiling. It's a simple rectangular footprint apart from a 3.5 x 7 m single storey extension for a family room. There are two steel beams, but several first floor walls are positioned over ground floor ones.

 

Fleming offer two kit specification levels, structure only and full specification. With the structure only kit, the panels are shipped uninsulated and fibreglass insulation supplied on a materials only basis. With the full spec kit, the panels are factory fitted with PIR and it includes internal doors. Erection is about £16,000 extra in both cases. There are various other extras - posi joists, extra insulation etc.

 

Fleming have a calculator on their website which uses July 2021 prices and for 236 m2 gives estimates of £55,224 and £80,004 respectively for the two levels, undoubtedly for a simple box shape structure. The quotes have come back at £85,573 and £121,551, i.e. more than 50% higher. The website calculator prices were similar to what I had estimated from data I'd collected from various sources so I was very surprised by the Fleming quotation, despite that our design is slightly more complex. I'd heard that materials prices, especially timber had levelled off or even eased a little in recent months.

 

We used their free design service, so another reason for the unexpectedly high price might be that they might have got the idea they were in a single supplier situation. For copyright reasons we won't shop their design around for alternative bids, but we have in parallel been working with another designer so that we can get competitive bids from other suppliers - Potton, MBC etc. We might consider brick and block.

 

I thought I'd share this experience and am interested in case anybody else is actively getting timber frame quotes at the moment.

[nod]

So The higher estimate will cost you round 

£600 m2 

How far does that get you 

[Gus Potter]

It's interesting how this is panning out with the pricing and erection of kits. I've been mucking about with this as a contractor and a designer for a good thirty years in Scotland where we embraced TF a bit earlier than down South.

 

Some of the Scottish TF companies have sold out to the big outfits, some truss manufactures also. What I can say is that it is worth a look at getting your local builder / joiner to price to stick build the kit and buy in the trusses. And / or spend a bit more earlier and get your SE to do you a traditional kit with the roof you want, if you need a bit of steel then it's relatively cheep for your local SE / Builder to sort this out for you.

 

Even 30 years ago it was hard to compare like with like from TF suppliers, now the waters are further muddied. Really unless you are a developer / or have a lot of technical knowledge you have no chance at getting like for like costs from the TF folk on a one off build. What you do need to know is what could you build based on stick built with you supplying the insulation and so on, how long will it take and then make the call on what suits you. Then you have a real base line.

 

I often do the panel drawings for the local builders and spec easliy sourced stuff (truss clips / hangers) and rough out the truss design with the key dimensions to make the roof bracing work. You'll need to pay up front for this but I have found that it is often an economical way of doing it in the long run.

 

It can also work for some folk on the cost plan where you don't need to stump up a big deposit for the kit up front.. you buy the timber.. belongs to you then you pay as you go as it gets erected. Also on the "soft side" many self builders change their mind as they go.. stick building can offer more flexibilty to "just change your mind" without the financial penalty.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Russell griffiths]

The second I read your size and design I said to myself £120,000. 

But I did think that would be erected, and felt n batten. 

[LA3222]

I had a Fleming quote for a 270m2 build in 2020 and it came in at around £75k including insulation and erection and I have a fairly complicated roof too.

 

I liked Fleming but ultimately went with SIP - amazing how much the prices have inflated since then. Doesn't really help you knowing this, unfortunately this is the mess that self builders now need to work with. 

[SteamyTea]

Do these prices for erection include scaffolding, crane/telehandler and site bogs etc?

[Thorfun]

don't discount timber frame yet. try the other suppliers. it's interesting that you got the Fleming to design the house. I guess that makes sense if you only have the one TF supplier in mind but most people, myself included, got a house designed by architect/architectural technician etc and then pimped those plans out to various TF companies to get quotes for the design.

 

seems a bit strange to get different designs by different TF suppliers.

[SuperJohnG]

3 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Do these prices for erection include scaffolding, crane/telehandler and site bogs etc?

No scaffolding or welfare usually. They do usually include telehandler / crane but you need to be careful and ensure its in there and don't get caught out. 

 

I was around 68k from Fleming for a 300sqm house with t shaped house and split level over the main section of house. This didn't include a canopy section which would have added around £5k. This was for premium plus or whatever I'm sure which included insuaktion, sarking and membrane. Seems horribly expensive now for all involved. 

 

I went with SIPS also in the end. 

 

If I was doing it again right now knowing what I know, I'd stick build with my joiner who I have met through building this house. He is very good and very reasonably priced, but that is only with the benefit of hindsight and knowing current prices. 

[Redoctober]

53 minutes ago, SuperJohnG said:

If I was doing it again right now knowing what I know, I'd stick build with my joiner who I have met through building this house. He is very good and very reasonably priced, but that is only with the benefit of hindsight and knowing current prices. 

 

My thoughts exactly - Went with Flemmings back in 2018 so any costings etc would be irrelevant to the OP - That said, no complaints with Flemmings. 

 

The Joiner we used said he would have been more than happy to undertake the "stick build" etc. As much as I would explore that route if we were going again, I would have to balance that out against erection time and associated costs of going independently so to speak.

[LnP]

16 hours ago, nod said:

So The higher estimate will cost you round 

£600 m2 

How far does that get you 

That's right, and that's for their basic level of insulation - 120mm of factory installed PIR in 140mm studs giving 0.17 W/m2 degC. You can add another 50mm of PIR which they will supply for £2000 materials only, giving 0.11 W/m2 degC. The client has to fit it.

 

I've been budgeting for the superstructure to be 25% of the total build cost, so if the TF kit price is a reflection of the market for everything else, the build cost will be ~£2,400 /m2. I was hoping for more like £1,600 - £1,800.

 

I'm optimistic though that I can improve on the Fleming price.

[LnP]

6 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Do these prices for erection include scaffolding, crane/telehandler and site bogs etc?

The £16,000 erection option doesn't include offloading the kit from the delivery vehicle or crane hire for the erection, which I hadn't expected. I don't know how much that will cost. It also doesn't include travel expenses for the erection crew. 4 people for 2 weeks could be another £5,000? It doesn't include scaffolding, site welfare facilities etc but I expected this so have them already in my budget.

[LnP]

3 hours ago, Thorfun said:

don't discount timber frame yet. try the other suppliers. it's interesting that you got the Fleming to design the house. I guess that makes sense if you only have the one TF supplier in mind but most people, myself included, got a house designed by architect/architectural technician etc and then pimped those plans out to various TF companies to get quotes for the design.

 

seems a bit strange to get different designs by different TF suppliers.

The free design service from Fleming was worth a punt and if their price had been say 10% over the prices on their website, I think we would have gone for it. Anyway now we'll pursue getting other TF companies to quote for a design we're getting finalised.

[matthyde83]

I originally had ours designed with a TF company (not to be named).  Paid for it, about £3.5k.  Got planning.
 

Got quoted £160k for frame (300 sqm).  I felt it was too expensive so I put the design into estimators online.  When I added up all the elements that the TF were supplying the estimate came back at under £100k.  I put this to the TF company and they said there had “been an error in the quote” and reduced it to £130k. 
 

Not impressed I sent the design to three other companies.  One refused to quote on the design but two others came back at c.£100k.  Original TF company then sent them all legal letters demanding they withdraw their quote as the plans were copyrighted.  One of the alternative TF companies then said sod them and paid for legal advice and we ended redrawing and going through planning again.

 

Now we’re ending  up going down a masonry route anyway because of price increases and cashflow management.  
 

Absolute f*****g nightmare. But enlightening. 

[nod]

1 hour ago, LnP said:

That's right, and that's for their basic level of insulation - 120mm of factory installed PIR in 140mm studs giving 0.17 W/m2 degC. You can add another 50mm of PIR which they will supply for £2000 materials only, giving 0.11 W/m2 degC. The client has to fit it.

 

I've been budgeting for the superstructure to be 25% of the total build cost, so if the TF kit price is a reflection of the market for everything else, the build cost will be ~£2,400 /m2. I was hoping for more like £1,600 - £1,800.

 

I'm optimistic though that I can improve on the Fleming price.

It was the inclusion of internal doors that confused me 

Does your quote get you to watertight ie roof tiled or slated 

 

We looked at TF for our first build 

But with a build budget of 220k for 265 m2 quickly realized that we would be better with Masonry

 

Two years on with more money to spend for our next build We looked at TF again Pre price hikes Whilst it would have been more convenient this time to We simply couldn’t justify the extra cost 

 

I’ve watched this thread With interest 

As two of the sites I’m doing the plastering on have been delayed due to TF companies demanding more money 

 

[Jac]

8 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Do these prices for erection include scaffolding, crane/telehandler and site bogs etc?

Ours didn’t ( late 2021 )….and those costs are considerable.  Very much so.

[nod]

18 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

It's interesting how this is panning out with the pricing and erection of kits. I've been mucking about with this as a contractor and a designer for a good thirty years in Scotland where we embraced TF a bit earlier than down South.

 

Some of the Scottish TF companies have sold out to the big outfits, some truss manufactures also. What I can say is that it is worth a look at getting your local builder / joiner to price to stick build the kit and buy in the trusses. And / or spend a bit more earlier and get your SE to do you a traditional kit with the roof you want, if you need a bit of steel then it's relatively cheep for your local SE / Builder to sort this out for you.

 

Even 30 years ago it was hard to compare like with like from TF suppliers, now the waters are further muddied. Really unless you are a developer / or have a lot of technical knowledge you have no chance at getting like for like costs from the TF folk on a one off build. What you do need to know is what could you build based on stick built with you supplying the insulation and so on, how long will it take and then make the call on what suits you. Then you have a real base line.

 

I often do the panel drawings for the local builders and spec easliy sourced stuff (truss clips / hangers) and rough out the truss design with the key dimensions to make the roof bracing work. You'll need to pay up front for this but I have found that it is often an economical way of doing it in the long run.

 

It can also work for some folk on the cost plan where you don't need to stump up a big deposit for the kit up front.. you buy the timber.. belongs to you then you pay as you go as it gets erected. Also on the "soft side" many self builders change their mind as they go.. stick building can offer more flexibilty to "just change your mind" without the financial penalty.

 

 

 

 

 

 

There was a real boom in TF som 40 years ago But Barrets and Wimpy put pay to that for many years due to shocking management 

Now nearly all the Student accommodation I work on are TF and probably about about a third of houses are TF with two thirds solids 

Nearly all TF round here have a masonry outer skin 

 

[LnP]

1 hour ago, nod said:

 

Does your quote get you to watertight ie roof tiled or slated 

No, just fitting of roof sarking and membrane, though I guess that's "wind and watertight" isn't it?. And it doesn't include windows and external doors.

[CC45]

shocked to see these prices.  It is what it is.  I'd stick build if self building again.  Maybe wait a while for things to calm down a bit?

[Thedreamer]

I decided to go for a stick build kit for our self build, a few years ago.

 

I found the large timber frame companies to be very expensive. 

 

It cost £13k for the materials to build the kit. Included within that is £5k for engineered attic trusses from Pasquill.

 

Labour was £9k, for making the kit, erecting it and also a suspended ground floor.

 

Other expensive items were a steel beam for the vaulted ceiling and three Kerto beams for the middle ridge part.

 

I also had to hire a telehandler with a truss jib for two weeks that cost around £750. 

 

By the end of that we looked like this (excluding the velux windows). 

 

[saveasteading]

19 minutes ago, Thedreamer said:

By the end of that we looked like this

Well done. 

A few years ago was before the current shortages and price rises, perhaps 20%?

you have declared £28,000, so say £31,000 now.

If this was your job, it would be interesting to know what do you think you would have charged a customer?

[Thedreamer]

10 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Well done. 

A few years ago was before the current shortages and price rises, perhaps 20%?

you have declared £28,000, so say £31,000 now.

If this was your job, it would be interesting to know what do you think you would have charged a customer?

 

£13,000 was the total materials, including the trusses.

£9,000 in labour (two joiners).

£750 for telehandler.

 

This was the Summer of 2018, cheap timber prices then.

 

This project is too bespoke to mark up. But adopting this approach, managing on a contractor basis, being careful with prices and applying for any grants along the way has resulted in a lot of equity. 

[Kelvin]

Our timber kit is £145k for a CPS system. SIP was £134k. This includes erecting the kit and Nordan windows so erected to weather tight but not water proof as it doesn’t include the roof or cladding. This is 202 sqm. 

[Andrew]

On 03/01/2022 at 16:53, LnP said:

I've been budgeting for the superstructure to be 25% of the total build cost

 

I've just checked our cost spreadsheet and our TF was 22.9% of the overall build cost (total includes consultant fees and a bit of landscaping). That was for the TF itself, erection including a mostly cut on site complex roof structure but no felt and battening and supply & fitting of insulation on site to 0.11 w/m2k throughout the thermal envelope.   So I don't think you are a million miles off with your assumption above. 

 

As an aside one thing that surprised me in terms of material cost and labour cost were the fascias, barge boards, soffits and any valley boards / roof noggins that may be required. If I were doing it again I would negotiate it into the TF company package - that way once the TF team are finished the build should be ready for the roofers to start straight away. 

[Gus Potter]

For a bit of fun.. but seriously.

 

As a ball park on TF to start a comparison spread sheet does this fly?

 

A joiner + labourer will make about 3-4 wall panels a day on site, some may be 4.8 m long, some 3.6m long if they have the panel drawings. The idea is that you can lift them into place with two men and brace. Say a joiner cost £220 a day and the labourer £120 / day.

 

For your spread sheet say labour is £340 per day for 4 panels at 3.6m long .. each panel costs £85 to put together plus the cost of material.

 

The panel consists of the timber, the ply / osb sheeting, lintels, breather membrane and crucially the poly prop straps to let the brickie identify where the nails for the wall ties need to go.

 

But it rains and mistakes get made so allow £150 per panel. When a mistake gets made the timber gets recycled into noggings. Yes I said £85 per panel but just go for £150.00 per panel for now.

 

To make this work you need to set up a saw bench on site, spend time reading the drawings so allow £500.00 for that.

 

Next look at the stud height. For basic initial pricing go for a 145 x 45 (C24 grade timber) deep stud as this lets you go to a 2.7m ceiling height structurally without drama (covers most parts of the UK in terms of wind loading also) and leaves you plenty room for insulation of your choice. Yes you can go a lower grade of timber say C16 but stick with this C24 for now.

 

Now if you have a house that is of reasonable size then you'll need some internal racking walls to stop the thing blowing down in the wind.

 

Now two folk can erect about six panels a day by hand.. does not sound like much but there are other things they need to do.. put in temporary bracing, read drawings, have lunch..talk about things..fix it down so £ 340 / 6 = about 60£ quid per panel to erect, fix and have a fag and a bit of a think about what you are going to do next.

 

A common mistake folk make is that when they go to get their roof priced is that the don't tell the truss designer where the the internal supporting structural walls are.. that is one reason for all the confusion on roof truss pricing.

 

For all. When you are trying to do your reasearch on how much things cost.. try this.. start from basics. measure the perimeter of your outside walls.

 

Just as an aside.. the truss manufacturers use a high grade timber TR26 grade ( they test their nail plates with with this timber grade) but often with attic trusses we need timber depth to get insulation in anyway.. so we can use a lower grade timber in a cut roof!

 

In summary from following what BH folk are saying I get a feeling that the cut timber roof and stick built TF may be up for revival?

 

I wonder if the numbers above float the boat.. of course you need the panel drawings / cutting schedule and material list.. allow £1.5k - 2.0 k (plus support and professional advice on the other aspects of the build for that and compare with the TF supplier. I think you may be in for a pleasant surprise!

 

I have a suspicion that the TF and Truss suppliers are milking it..why.. because I have a load of my domestic builder Clients at my door asking me for stick built panel drawings and design calculations..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Simplysimon]

17 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

For a bit of fun.. but seriously.

 

As a ball park on TF to start a comparison spread sheet does this fly?

 

A joiner + labourer will make about 3-4 wall panels a day on site, some may be 4.8 m long, some 3.6m long if they have the panel drawings. The idea is that you can lift them into place with two men and brace. Say a joiner cost £220 a day and the labourer £120 / day.

 

For your spread sheet say labour is £340 per day for 4 panels at 3.6m long .. each panel costs £85 to put together plus the cost of material.

 

The panel consists of the timber, the ply / osb sheeting, lintels, breather membrane and crucially the poly prop straps to let the brickie identify where the nails for the wall ties need to go.

 

But it rains and mistakes get made so allow £150 per panel. When a mistake gets made the timber gets recycled into noggings. Yes I said £85 per panel but just go for £150.00 per panel for now.

 

To make this work you need to set up a saw bench on site, spend time reading the drawings so allow £500.00 for that.

 

Next look at the stud height. For basic initial pricing go for a 145 x 45 (C24 grade timber) deep stud as this lets you go to a 2.7m ceiling height structurally without drama (covers most parts of the UK in terms of wind loading also) and leaves you plenty room for insulation of your choice. Yes you can go a lower grade of timber say C16 but stick with this C24 for now.

 

Now if you have a house that is of reasonable size then you'll need some internal racking walls to stop the thing blowing down in the wind.

 

Now two folk can erect about six panels a day by hand.. does not sound like much but there are other things they need to do.. put in temporary bracing, read drawings, have lunch..talk about things..fix it down so £ 340 / 6 = about 60£ quid per panel to erect, fix and have a fag and a bit of a think about what you are going to do next.

 

A common mistake folk make is that when they go to get their roof priced is that the don't tell the truss designer where the the internal supporting structural walls are.. that is one reason for all the confusion on roof truss pricing.

 

For all. When you are trying to do your reasearch on how much things cost.. try this.. start from basics. measure the perimeter of your outside walls.

 

Just as an aside.. the truss manufacturers use a high grade timber TR26 grade ( they test their nail plates with with this timber grade) but often with attic trusses we need timber depth to get insulation in anyway.. so we can use a lower grade timber in a cut roof!

 

In summary from following what BH folk are saying I get a feeling that the cut timber roof and stick built TF may be up for revival?

 

I wonder if the numbers above float the boat.. of course you need the panel drawings / cutting schedule and material list.. allow £1.5k - 2.0 k (plus support and professional advice on the other aspects of the build for that and compare with the TF supplier. I think you may be in for a pleasant surprise!

 

I have a suspicion that the TF and Truss suppliers are milking it..why.. because I have a load of my domestic builder Clients at my door asking me for stick built panel drawings and design calculations..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

once you've done that, as you'll have all the sizes, price the walls and roof up for I beams and blown cellulose.