Heat pump latest government offers

[Ferdinand]

Oooof. 

 

This is going to get serious if the law is not enforced.

 

Having repeatedly expressed their willingness to cause vulnerable people to die, what happens when the first Insulate Britain idiot gets themselves killed? 

 

This was October 13th.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/furious-motorist-drives-into-eco-protesters-blocking-road-near-dartford-crossing/

 

 

[Thedreamer]

  On 19/10/2021 at 12:35, SteamyTea said:

Yes it will.

The majority will be generated via renewables and some new nuclear.

 

This should not come as a shock to anyone, it has been discussed, like Climate Change, for years.  The people that need to do the work, not small builders and householder, but the infrastructure providers, know what to do, how to do it, and when it has to be done.

None of this is an idea that popped into Boris Johnson's head last night.

 

I also heard them talking about fuel poverty on the radio earlier.  This really does need a proper definition.  Many people still work on 10% of a household's wage.  This is a nonsense number and was plucked from thin air I suspect.

I am going to claim that most households are in 'vacation poverty', 'transport poverty' and 'gambling, fags and booze poverty'.  I base that on nothing that prejudice and ignorance.

But as a nation we are certainly suffering from 'educational poverty'.

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I feel fuel poverty could be an issue in my local area. 

 

There will be a number of stone cottages that are starring at many turbines but paying some of the highest rates of electricity in the UK.

 

I would like to see a policy of a single unit of electricity costing the same for all households in the UK. It's radical but fair. 

 

The nice clean renewable energy for towns and cities impacts rural communities.

[epsilonGreedy]

  On 19/10/2021 at 16:26, Ferdinand said:

Oooof. 

 

This is going to get serious if the law is not enforced.

 

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Could this lead to a Clive Pontin type court case where a jury refuse to convict a manifest crime against an IB road blocker. 

[SteamyTea]

  On 19/10/2021 at 16:26, Ferdinand said:

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/furious-motorist-drives-into-eco-protesters-blocking-road-near-dartford-crossing/

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Sturdy girl that Karen who was driving the Rangerover.

She could have just picked up the protestors, one under each arm, and carried them away.

[joe90]

  On 19/10/2021 at 11:39, markc said:

cull half the population

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David Attenborough was saying this years ago, well not quite, he was saying that man ( over population) was the main problem for Earth. I did wonder if Covid was the planet trying to protect itself, the Gaia principle. ?

[Temp]

Oh dear..

 

"Daily Mail: ROGER BISBY: Heat pumps are one of the biggest cons I've seen in the building trade."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10109299/ROGER-BISBY-Heat-pumps-one-biggest-cons-Ive-seen-building-trade.html

 

 

 

[George]

  On 19/10/2021 at 22:56, Temp said:

Oh dear..

 

"Daily Mail: ROGER BISBY: Heat pumps are one of the biggest cons I've seen in the building trade."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10109299/ROGER-BISBY-Heat-pumps-one-biggest-cons-Ive-seen-building-trade.html

 

 

 

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Although it's not a balanced article, he's spot on at the end ...

 

'it would be far better to ensure that people’s houses are properly insulated first.'

 

Trying to retrofit heat pumps in homes that aren't suitable will be a waste of money.

 

(Of course, a well designed system in a suitable home they are great.) 

[Mr Punter]

The best comment I read was

 

"I am a house builder and install air source heat pumps. They work very well with Under Floor Heating in our superbly insulated new homes, but they will not work well with radiators or old poorly insulated homes."

 

It is about right I think.

[SteamyTea]

  On 19/10/2021 at 20:45, joe90 said:

David Attenborough

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Was this the same David Attenborough that was not convinced that anthropogenic climate change was real until about 15 years ago?

Now he is making a living from emotionally blackmailing the general population.

[Adsibob]

  On 19/10/2021 at 09:10, ProDave said:

  On 19/10/2021 at 09:07, epsilonGreedy said:

 

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they have got "noticed" so people know their name, but I still bet very very few know what they actually want to happen

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I know the public is pretty ignorant about these things, but surely the average Joe can work out what Insulate Britain stands for.

[Adsibob]

  On 19/10/2021 at 11:21, epsilonGreedy said:

 

I find myself in the unusual position of articulating the climate alarmist position.

 

If we accept the consensus view on global warming then by the end of the century sea levels could be 1 to 2m higher and the temperature 2 to 4 degrees higher than the pre industrial era. The alarmists also believe such a world will be ravaged by more extreme weather with hurricanes, fires, droughts, floods and agricultural failures on a biblical scale. Such a world would likely see 100's of millions of humans dying early in life and billions living in misery. The BBC wants me to believe the sky will catch fire as the world spontaneously combusts.

 

Given such an outlook IB actions are rational. Based on current CO2 emission reduction progress we are unlikely to see net zero CO2 emissions eliminated within 50 years and global CO2 PPM will rocket towards 500. An emergency UK national insulation programme is the most effective route to reduce CO2 emissions by 2030. 

 

On balance which is more important, the death of a stroke victim or millions of avoidable deaths by the end of the century?

 

 

But co2 ppm continues to rise.

 

You are guilty of the same dishonesty you just alleged. You want to be in the cool gang of climate change alarmism but you are not prepared to enact the changes necessary to avoid a biblical climatic catastrophe that your gang predicts.

 

 

I agree, most look like thrill seeking early retirees. They probably worked in the public sector in some clip board hugging role and have natural authoritarian tendencies. 

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Plus 1

[ProDave]

  On 19/10/2021 at 23:03, George said:

Although it's not a balanced article, he's spot on at the end ...

 

'it would be far better to ensure that people’s houses are properly insulated first.'

 

Trying to retrofit heat pumps in homes that aren't suitable will be a waste of money.

 

(Of course, a well designed system in a suitable home they are great.) 

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Why do I get the feeling that in perhaps 10 years or less, this will be the next "miss selling" scandal?

[SteamyTea]

  On 20/10/2021 at 07:15, ProDave said:

Why do I get the feeling that in perhaps 10 years or less, this will be the next "miss selling" scandal?

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Yes, there are going to be disappointed people.

Why we need a decent program to educate.

 

I frequently hear the Betamax vs VHS argument put forward.  Not a good argument, they both worked, the problem was, in part, that Betamax was a closed format, VHS an open format.  Was more to do with marketing than technology.

Edited October 20, 2021 by SteamyTea

[dpmiller]

^Already is IMHO. cf. @zoothorn

[MikeSharp01]

  On 20/10/2021 at 05:43, SteamyTea said:

Was this the same David Attenborough that was not convinced that anthropogenic climate change was real until about 15 years ago?

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I guess we are all entitled to change our minds when we discover we were wrong - some may say it was big of him to admit it and move on - I think it is called integrity.

[MikeSharp01]

  On 20/10/2021 at 07:15, ProDave said:

Why do I get the feeling that in perhaps 10 years or less, this will be the next "miss selling" scandal?

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+1 to that.

  On 20/10/2021 at 07:23, SteamyTea said:

Why we need a decent program to educate.

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To turn this over we will need more than education because we will be up against capitalism, not a bad thing in itself, which will need careful control if @ProDave's prediction is not to crystalise. As a for instance we could regulate the installers in such a way that they have to guarantee, and pay any difference for the life of the system, the energy input and performance of the house once installed (EG Kw in for 20deg inside at 2deg outside with a wind speed as well.) That would force them to get educated to ensure they put systems in that work and very quickly HMG would realise where this does and does not work in terms of homes.

[SteamyTea]

  On 20/10/2021 at 07:24, MikeSharp01 said:

I guess we are all entitled to change our minds when we discover we were wrong - some may say it was big of him to admit it and move on - I think it is called integrity.

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Yes, and that is what science is based on.  The way he stubbornly refused to concede, in the face of overwhelming evidence, and then have a Damascian conversion is what irks me.

Whether I like it or not, he had a huge influence before 2006 and would have been better of saying nothing, but he carried in saying he was not convinced it was happening.

 

If anyone is interested, here is the IPCC's Physical Science Summary for Policy Makers.

Edited October 20, 2021 by SteamyTea

[SteamyTea]

  On 20/10/2021 at 07:36, MikeSharp01 said:

As a for instance we could regulate the installers in such a way that they have to guarantee, and pay any difference for the life of the system,

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I would like a system like that, but I can't see an easy way to administer it i.e. if the installer goes bankrupt, who then pays.

What is, generally a known known, is the energy usage of a house.  It is in the gas bill.  There may be slight differences due to occupancy and internal temperature, but generally not huge.

So half the verification of a heat loss survey is already done.

Few current heating companies will bother to double check their numbers against known data.

I also think that we need to loose the term 'Heating Engineer'.  That is a description anyone can use, it means nothing now.

[epsilonGreedy]

  On 20/10/2021 at 07:24, MikeSharp01 said:

I guess we are all entitled to change our minds when we discover we were wrong - some may say it was big of him to admit it and move on - I think it is called integrity.

 

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Just as likely he is your typical media celebrity who craves a stage and a spotlight. He just changed his spots because he found retirement difficult to handle.

[MikeSharp01]

  On 20/10/2021 at 07:45, SteamyTea said:

if the installer goes bankrupt, who then pays.

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Make it an insurance backed scheme - the premiums will be so high nobody will do it and the message will get home.

 

  On 20/10/2021 at 07:49, epsilonGreedy said:

Just as likely he is your typical media celebrity who craves a stage and a spotlight. He just changed his spots because he found retirement difficult to handle.

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Possibly somewhat cynical and, given we now broadly agree with him, you may think of it as a good move. I guess I have no problem with him backing what I think long may it continue.

 

 

[SteamyTea]

  On 20/10/2021 at 07:59, MikeSharp01 said:

Make it an insurance backed scheme - the premiums will be so high nobody will do it and the message will get home.

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One way of not getting them installed I guess.

[MikeSharp01]

  On 20/10/2021 at 08:03, SteamyTea said:

One way of not getting them installed I guess.

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Or only installed in the right situations.

[IanR]

  On 20/10/2021 at 07:59, MikeSharp01 said:

Make it an insurance backed scheme - the premiums will be so high nobody will do it and the message will get home.

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I believe the 2022 Building Regs require Energy Loss calcs to be done for the "low temp" heating system. (haven't read the detail and am going by the headlines)

 

I wonder if the Home Owner will be able to rely on the Professional Indemnity Insurance of who ever does the heat loss calcs, if they prove to have under estimated the heating requirement and led to the incorrect size HP being installed.

Edited October 20, 2021 by IanR

[Adsibob]

  On 20/10/2021 at 07:45, SteamyTea said:

I would like a system like that, but I can't see an easy way to administer it i.e. if the installer goes bankrupt, who then pays.

What is, generally a known known, is the energy usage of a house.  It is in the gas bill.  There may be slight differences due to occupancy and internal temperature, but generally not huge.

So half the verification of a heat loss survey is already done.

Few current heating companies will bother to double check their numbers against known data.

I also think that we need to loose the term 'Heating Engineer'.  That is a description anyone can use, it means nothing now.

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They should make a government backed installer scheme, with a rigorous training and certification stage, such that to train as a registered government approved installer, you need to pass a difficult exam. If your installer passes the exam but then goes on to make a significant error on the installation, the government reimburses you out of a fund that is contributed to, at least in part, by the installer certification scheme.

[SteamyTea]

  On 20/10/2021 at 09:05, Adsibob said:

They should make a government backed installer scheme, with a rigorous training and certification stage

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That is basically what they did with the MCS.

It could be argued about the level of training to bring a pipe fitter up to the standard of a real engineer.  That usually takes 3 years at university.