nod

Heat pump latest government offers

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5k being offered to homeowners to swap gas boilers for HPs Probably not enough to encourage most people 

 

A friend of ours has been fitting HPs to mainly local Authority housing Over the last  three years 

He states that most homes including his own arnt suitable Siting poor airtightness He also states without UFH on the ground floor and the correct radiators in the bedrooms A HP is a costly waste of money 

 

I can’t see the government sticking to the 2035 ban on gas boilers on new homes 

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1 hour ago, nod said:

I can’t see the government sticking to the 2005 ban on gas boilers on new homes 

 

That's the easy bit and costs the government nothing since it will be legislated (Building Regs) and no incentives need to be offered.

 

As much as the industry says it can't happen, it's going to happen.

 

1 hour ago, nod said:

A friend of ours has been fitting HPs to mainly local Authority housing Over the last  three years 

He states that most homes including his own arnt suitable Siting poor airtightness He also states without UFH on the ground floor and the correct radiators in the bedrooms A HP is a costly waste of money

 

I feel your friend needs to get better at his energy calcs to better size the heat pumps to the properties he's installing them in.

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RHI will pay me 10k over seven years ... if I can get it installed in time. Key question for me, is MCS required for this grant?

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At present I think quite a bit of it is about encouraging the skill  base  and the domestic industry to develop, whilst providing a measure of certainty. The UK market at the moment is about  65k this, compared to around 1.5  million across Europe and 250k-300k in France (*)

 

Personally I think that 5k should be more than adequate; if all the cost is funded by the government then we will have money-grubbing fools falling over themselves to stick heat pumps in before creating decent quality fabric. If say half of the heat pump cost is funded then they will spend some money on insulation, ventilation, airtightness first. And reduce their heating consumption therefore need  smaller heat pump.

 

Hopefully we will also have a sharp requirement on the EPC Level required to get a heat pump grant - hopefully C or above and a new repot required first. Integrity of the EPC database is one important question.

 

(*) This makes sense as they use very little gas, so no switchover required,  and do not have our longer, colder, wetter windows on the whole.

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(Mod action: Two separate heatpump grant threads merged)

 

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8 hours ago, nod said:

A friend of ours has been fitting HPs to mainly local Authority housing Over the last  three years 

He states that most homes including his own arnt suitable Siting poor airtightness He also states without UFH on the ground floor and the correct radiators in the bedrooms A HP is a costly waste of money 

 

I can’t see the government sticking to the 2035 ban on gas boilers on new homes 

 

So in that case surely his role as the engineer is to tell them that the house needs some investment first?

 

Heaven knows there have been enough funding packages to increase the energy efficiency of socially rented homes over the last 20 years.

 

A singe programme that ran from 2001 to iirc 2018 or so was worth around £20 billion.

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24 minutes ago, Bonner said:

RHI will pay me 10k over seven years ... if I can get it installed in time. Key question for me, is MCS required for this grant?

 

Yes, has to be MCS to be eligible for RHI

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Can anyone link to the T&cs of this please?

 

How does this impact us self builders building a self build having already removed the gas boiler having knocked it all down? 

 

What will be the criteria to claim? 

 

I will miss RHI for a few months, was hoping this £5k would soften the blow! :(

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16 minutes ago, Andehh said:

Can anyone link to the T&cs of this please?

 

There's no detail yet, the first official acknowledgement was last night with Kwasi Kwarteng talking to a the BBC.

 

We'll have to see if new builds will get any incentives from 2022 - 2025. The Building Regs banning fossil Fuel boilers doesn't come in until the Future Homes standard is brought in in 2025, so while there is no need for new build incentives after 2025, maybe there will be something from 2022.

Edited by IanR

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The £5k will just pay for the additional paperwork of the  scheme and the inflated price of the installers.

 

look at the PV price while Fit was on the go, look now, same install probably £5k cheaper.


 

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7 hours ago, IanR said:

 

That's the easy bit and costs the government nothing since it will be legislated (Building Regs) and no incentives need to be offered.

 

As much as the industry says it can't happen, it's going to happen.

 

 

I feel your friend needs to get better at his energy calcs to better size the heat pumps to the properties he's installing them in.

Time will tell on the 2025 Personally I think it will be moved to 2030 

Covid of course 

The pumps he fitting are nearly all local authority and for people that if they had to pay a couple of hundred pounds towards a HP they would not have one installed

Next point is nothing to do with his calcs 

They are done by his office 

Currently fitting around a dozen per week 

The people having them fitted are being told they will have reduced bills This isn’t happening His logic is either the pumps are unsustainable or the homes they are fitting them in 

After three years of fitting Probably not an expert But better informed than most 

Our extremely well insulated next house will have a HP comparing like for like with a gas boiler The running costs will be similar 

 

If gas was on its way out why is there still miles of new domestic gas supplies being laid 

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54 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

 

So in that case surely his role as the engineer is to tell them that the house needs some investment first?

 

Heaven knows there have been enough funding packages to increase the energy efficiency of socially rented homes over the last 20 years.

 

A singe programme that ran from 2001 to iirc 2018 or so was worth around £20 billion.


no he’s the last person in the house, so he’s just fitting equipment probably on price work.

 

the local authority( tenant liaison officer or somesuch name) and subcontractor will have visited each home a few weeks/months before the install date to measure up the house, explain the disruption and check where equipment can go.

 

Back at the office, some basic heat calcs will be done, and equipment ordered and rough layout drawing produced for the installer.

 

He’s just fitting it as quickly as possible.

to make as much money as possible- no different from fitting gas central heating to social housing.

 

I used to walk around with the TLO on some jobs back in the day.

 

 

 

 

 

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59 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

 

So in that case surely his role as the engineer is to tell them that the house needs some investment first?

 

Heaven knows there have been enough funding packages to increase the energy efficiency of socially rented homes over the last 20 years.

 

A singe programme that ran from 2001 to iirc 2018 or so was worth around £20 billion.

No

The people who he is fitting for don’t want to hear that They just want a free heating system that will cost nothing to run 

 

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10 minutes ago, nod said:

If gas was on its way out why is there still miles of new domestic gas supplies being laid 

 

Because "industry" requires policy statements and legislation, it tends not to act on press briefings and leaked disputes between Ministers. The Government has been slow to come out with concrete information on "the plan".

 

Also because the developers are paying for that supply pipe in the connection charges, so there's no loss to the network provider.

Edited by IanR

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1 minute ago, TonyT said:


no he’s the last person in the house, so he’s just fitting equipment probably on price work.

 

the local authority( tenant liaison officer or somesuch name) and subcontractor will have visited each home a few weeks/months before the install date to measure up the house, explain the disruption and check where equipment can go.

 

Back at the office, some basic heat calcs will be done, and equipment ordered and rough layout drawing produced for the installer.

 

He’s just fitting it as quickly as possible.

to make as much money as possible- no different from fitting gas central heating to social housing.

 

I used to walk around with the TLO on some jobs back in the day.


yep he does as he’s told 

Turns up in the firms van 

on a st wage of £250 per day 

He hates it 

He would love to tell them the truth 

But loose his cards in job 

He did say in reality The HP that I will install for you  your 6 bed home will probably be cheaper to run than most of these cramped S##T holes that I work in

At the end of the day hes a heating engineer Not a social worker or Eco warrior 

 

 

1 minute ago, TonyT said:

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, IanR said:

 

Because "industry" requires policy statements and legislation, it tends not to act on press briefings and leaked disputes between Ministers. The Government has been slow to come out with concrete information on "the plan".

 

Also because the developer are paying for that supply pipe in the connection charges, so there's no loss to the network provider.

It’s just reminds of government policy in the 70s building all these high rise flats that no one wants 

The government is good at wasting our money 

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I was chatting to a friend who has around 50 plumbers and HE directly employed 

Hes no immediate plans for re training Lije most in the industry he doesn’t think the 2005 date is workable But accepts that HPs will gradually become mainstream

But not yet 😂

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90000 out of 22 million home qualify 

Being compared to the car scrap age scheme 

I rest my case 😂😂😂😂

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12 minutes ago, nod said:

Hes no immediate plans for re training Lije most in the industry he doesn’t think the 2005 date is workable

 

And new players like Octopus that already have a training academy set up to train lots of new staff are going to come in and nick all his business.

 

There's going to be lots of disruption, and opportunities for agile operators.

 

Quote:

"90000 out of 22 million home qualify "

 

The pool of money is very small. I'd assume that's to get people to move early. More cash will be released, but no guarantee the terms will be the same.

Edited by IanR

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11 minutes ago, nod said:

I was chatting to a friend who has around 50 plumbers and HE directly employed 

Hes no immediate plans for re training Lije most in the industry he doesn’t think the 2005 date is workable But accepts that HPs will gradually become mainstream

But not yet 😂

 

I'd certainly agree that the 2005 date is not workable.

 

Unless he has a Tardis. :ph34r:

 

(I edited the OP to 2035)

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6 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

 

I'd certainly agree that the 2005 date is not workable.

 

Unless he has a Tardis. :ph34r:

 

(I edited the OP to 2035)

Thanks 😂😂😂

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I am sorry to say the whole house heating upgrade topic is being completely miss handled by the government.  They think (at least this is the impression they give) just swap all the gas boilers for heat pumps and the problem is solved and we have all gone green.

 

WRONG.

 

The most fundamental issue with a very large amount of the UK house stock is the fabric of the houses are lousy, no or poor insulation and poor air tightness meaning they need a massive amount of heat to keep them warm.  Easy to throw lots of heat into a house with a large gas boiler running on (what used to be) cheap gas.  Not so easy ito do with a heat pump.  Yes if you do the heat calculations a very large heat pump might work, but what about the radiator sizes?  what about the hot water tank?  What it the HP needs to be so large you need 3 phase but can't get it at your house?

 

Offering £5K is just going to feed the cowboy "swap a boiler for an ASHP and do nothing else" brigade, result in a lot of poor installs that don't work, and give heat pumps a bad name (which many think they have already)

 

WHEN are we going to tell the general public the truth?  If you want your old poorly insulated house to go green, you are going to have to spend a LOT of money upgrading the fabric of the house first and properly insulating it, which will be costly and very disruptive.  THEN it might be a good idea to heat it with a heat pump.

 

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17 minutes ago, ProDave said:

WHEN are we going to tell the general public the truth?  If you want your old poorly insulated house to go green, you are going to have to spend a LOT of money upgrading the fabric of the house first and properly insulating it, which will be costly and very disruptive.  THEN it might be a good idea to heat it with a heat pump.

 

Agreed. No idea why Kwasi Kwarteng and Bojo did the rounds last night just talking about Heat Pumps. That's "only" £450M of a £3.9B package of Heat in Buildings strategy that was due to be announced yesterday, but will hopefully go ahead today.

 

The bigger story I feel is the EPC improvements. Let's hope they've stopped arguing between themselves about how it will all be funded and come out with an end-to-end strategy.

Edited by IanR

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