PeterW

.. and now it’s car charge points

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That’s one way to shift the commitment onto the general public

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So does that mean you can't build flats without off street parking any more then?

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What's the primary aim of the policy? 

 

CO2 reduction or using electric car batteries as grid storage/stability?

 

 

 

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About time.

 

My mate just bought a new build and I think they wanted £1000 or £1100 for a chargepoint. Clearly this will be added onto the price now, but it needs to be done.

 

It seems to say associated parking spaces, so it would apply to flats with allocated parking. If you ask me doing it in this case is even more important as it will be a lot more expensive and difficult to add points to flats after they are built.

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What next, will we have to fit locks to doors and windows, plumb in water, and take waste away.

I would think fitting a charging point to a new build was dead easy.  Trouble is, it will probably only be a 7 kW one.

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It’s a shame they don’t actually enforce solar panels on the roof of all new buildings too, and then offset some of the electrical usage. 

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Nothing wrong with a 7 kW charger.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, TonyT said:

Nothing wrong with a 7 kW charger.

 

 

Well it is better than none.

But for a 3 or 4 car family it may be a problem.  Especially in rural areas.

Then there is the issue of car to grid.  That may have a 4 kW limit to it (like most domestic PV).

 

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7kw is ample, most cars can only take a 7 or 11kw AC charge anyway.

 

My car takes 17kw as I have three  phase. So i get 240v x 16a x 3, but that is pretty unusual.

 

Keeping it easy if we assume 350kw per mile, then you can charge 20m per hour. It is highly unusual for someone to drive 200 miles in a day round trip and certainly would be exceptional circumstances to then turn around and do it again within 10 hours.

 

On the other hand the local Tesco has been installing 7kw points. For the average 20 minutes I spend in there it isn't worth getting the cables out.

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13 minutes ago, AliG said:

My car takes 17kw as I have three  phase. So i get 240v x 16a x 3, but that is pretty unusual.

 

Do you mean 11kW?   17kW would be 25A per phase.

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10 minutes ago, Dan F said:

 

Do you mean 11kW?   17kW would be 25A per phase.

 

It's 1.732 X 16 X 400 X 0.001 isn't it? 

 

Equals 11 as you say. 

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Sorry, should have said 24A.

 

It is 32A single phase 24A three phase

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In 9 years' time, all new cars will be electric.  In 20 years, virtually all cars will be electric.  In the life time of a new house, petrols and diesels will only be in museums.  Why on earth would you build a house without a charging point.  You will need one.

 

Plus 7kW is plenty for a domestic charger.  For a car in average use, you need 8 hours a week of charging time at 7kW.   Plug it in overnight  once a week and you're done.

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1 minute ago, smart51 said:

In 9 years' time, all new cars will be electric.  In 20 years, virtually all cars will be electric.  In the life time of a new house, petrols and diesels will only be in museums.  Why on earth would you build a house without a charging point.  You will need one.

 

Plus 7kW is plenty for a domestic charger.  For a car in average use, you need 8 hours a week of charging time at 7kW.   Plug it in overnight  once a week and you're done.

My neighbour has a Tesla long range dual motor. I think his commute is about 6 miles each way. He only charges about once a month.

 

I think in few years time batteries will get smaller as people get over their range anxiety obsession and public chargers are ubiquitous. Means more frequent but shorter charging. We've a 7kW going in and I don't regret going for 3phase at all. Will be more than enough for our likely two electric car household.

 

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6 minutes ago, smart51 said:

In 9 years' time, all new cars will be electric.  In 20 years, virtually all cars will be electric. 


I doubt that will happen. The 2030 target requires such a shift change in not just the vehicles but the infrastructure and it’s highly unlikely it can be achieved. Charge network density for example needs to be significantly changed as there are huge rural areas that have no charge points and as these are likely to be net loss for suppliers they will want them heavily subsidized by the government. 
 

Vehicle average age in the UK is over 8 1/2 years now, and is increasing. 20% of vehicles are over 13 years old. That means that even stopping selling IC personal vehicles in 2030, it would be 2045 or later by the time they are tailing off (assuming owners don’t keep them longer..!)

 

 

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I'd love to join in but having ordered a new Audi eTron back in May, still no delivery date. May be Dec, may be Feb, who knows. 

 

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I fitted bollard type car charge points to a development, as I realised this would have been very difficult for future owners.  There are 14 parking spaces with 7 x 2 gang 32A chargers.  So far 2 electric cars plus 1 electric visitor car.

 

I am sure the presence of the chargers acts as a nudge.

 

Passers by all assume we were made to include them to gain planning, which was not the case.

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4 hours ago, PeterW said:


I doubt that will happen. The 2030 target requires such a shift change in not just the vehicles but the infrastructure and it’s highly unlikely it can be achieved. Charge network density for example needs to be significantly changed as there are huge rural areas that have no charge points and as these are likely to be net loss for suppliers they will want them heavily subsidized by the government. 
 

Vehicle average age in the UK is over 8 1/2 years now, and is increasing. 20% of vehicles are over 13 years old. That means that even stopping selling IC personal vehicles in 2030, it would be 2045 or later by the time they are tailing off (assuming owners don’t keep them longer..!)

 

Only if you assume people won't switch to electric until they are forced too.  You seem to be assuming that the majority of cars sold in 2019 will be petrol or diesel. 

 

EV sales have been increasing exponentially for a decade.  Last year they broke 1% of new sales, this year looks to top 2%.  If things continue for the next 4 years as they have for the past 10,  2025 will have more EV sales than ICE.  

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16 minutes ago, smart51 said:

Only if you assume people won't switch to electric until they are forced too.  You seem to be assuming that the majority of cars sold in 2019 will be petrol or diesel. 

 

EV sales have been increasing exponentially for a decade.  Last year they broke 1% of new sales, this year looks to top 2%.  If things continue for the next 4 years as they have for the past 10,  2025 will have more EV sales than ICE.  

I am not against EV's but yet to be convinced they will do all our motoring needs.  So likely by the end of the 20's we will have one EV between us and I will be looking for my next ICE car as a long term keep, primarily for towing.  Unless by the end of the 20's someone is selling an EV that can tow 2 tons and do so with a >200 mile range.

 

Then there is our other retirement desire, a motorhome and a lot more touring.  This is now seeming like very "last gasp" stuff, something we need to do early in our retirement while we still can.  Does anyone yet make an electric motorhome with a decent range?  Are camp sites going to be ready for 7kW charging when you get there?

 

All the assumptions about EV's assume everyone uses them as shopping trollies and commuting, and conveniently forget those that want to "do" something with a vehicle.

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29 minutes ago, smart51 said:

Only if you assume people won't switch to electric until they are forced too.  You seem to be assuming that the majority of cars sold in 2019 will be petrol or diesel. 

 

EV sales have been increasing exponentially for a decade.  Last year they broke 1% of new sales, this year looks to top 2%.  If things continue for the next 4 years as they have for the past 10,  2025 will have more EV sales than ICE.  

 

The last time I checked BEVs were doing better far far than that.

https://www.nextgreencar.com/electric-cars/statistics/

 

may-ngc-annual-market-share-plug-ins.png

 

I think mandating chargers in all new houses is as much a no-brainer as cycle storage.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, ProDave said:

All the assumptions about EV's assume everyone uses them as shopping trollies and commuting, and conveniently forget those that want to "do" something with a vehicle.

 

A lot of truth in this I think.  Also true that around 80% of journeys are short / local.  An EV is ideal for this.  Longer range I'm less convinced in the absence of fast charging (comparable to filling up with fuel).  I can accept the argument that you stop and have a coffee while you charge.  What the proponents seem to gloss over is the queue of others behind waiting to charge, which will happen when we have all switched to EV's.  Easy solution is more charging points, but how many do you need to effectively replace fuel pumps given it takes longer to 'fuel' an EV? Given we can make carbon neutral synthetic fuels, I'm a little puzzled why Hybrids are not part of the future, as I'm positive synthetic fuels will be used in heavy goods vehicles and alike.

 

The other thing that doesn't get much press is the lifecycle carbon emissions of an EV.  I've read a few comparison studies and the carbon reductions all come from the decarbonisation of the energy used to make the batteries, and recycling them into another use thereafter. The gap at the moment is only a few %. If your battery production is powered by renewable energy then fine, but if the batteries come from China?  Interestingly, the lifecycle carbon emissions of an EV with a longer range, i.e. more batteries, gets worse, which is why I assume they select EV's with a 100 mile odd range for their comparisons.  Can't help but feel that once they have encouraged the switch, in years to come we'll all be labelled planet killers for buying an EV, much in the same way diesel is demonised today.

 

Lastly, does anyone seriously think EV's will remain cheap to run? The govt will have a huge fuel duty hole in its finances to make up.  Road pricing here we come!

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16 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

...

I would think fitting a charging point to a new build was dead easy. 

 

Yes it was for us. No electric car yet, but soon, I hope.  7Kw should be alright for us. I'd like to hook it up to our EDDI Diverter too, but with only 4Kw Peak on the roof and a 14Kw SunAmp, there won't be much spare to divert to the car charger. 

 

Still, every spare little photon helps.

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2 minutes ago, Stones said:

A lot of truth in this I think.  Also true that around 80% of journeys are short / local.  An EV is ideal for this.  Longer range I'm less convinced in the absence of fast charging (comparable to filling up with fuel).  I can accept the argument that you stop and have a coffee while you charge.  What the proponents seem to gloss over is the queue of others behind waiting to charge, which will happen when we have all switched to EV's.  Easy solution is more charging points, but how many do you need to effectively replace fuel pumps given it takes longer to 'fuel' an EV? Given we can make carbon neutral synthetic fuels, I'm a little puzzled why Hybrids are not part of the future, as I'm positive synthetic fuels will be used in heavy goods vehicles and alike.

If you think about it, it really doesn't cost very much to wire up an entire car park with cables and plugs. The DC chargers themselves are expensive at the moment, but we're already starting to see the technology to share the power modules across a large number of plugs which gives you a big saving since you only need to size for the normal load and can throttle during unusual peaks.

Problem with synthetic fuels is that the economics are horrible, on just about every level. They're optimistic of getting to price-parity with fossil fuels by 2050 or so, mostly because the round-trip efficiency is awful - you maybe keep 50% of the raw energy in the electricity if you're very lucky, then run it in a piston engine with 30% thermal efficiency. That means the cost per mile (ignoring the fact that battery cars have very low maintenance so the cars themselves are cheaper to run) is about 5x higher for e-fuels than for batteries.

 

2 minutes ago, Stones said:

The other thing that doesn't get much press is the lifecycle carbon emissions of an EV.  I've read a few comparison studies and the carbon reductions all come from the decarbonisation of the energy used to make the batteries, and recycling them into another use thereafter. The gap at the moment is only a few %. If your battery production is powered by renewable energy then fine, but if the batteries come from China?  Interestingly, the lifecycle carbon emissions of an EV with a longer range, i.e. more batteries, gets worse, which is why I assume they select EV's with a 100 mile odd range for their comparisons.  Can't help but feel that once they have encouraged the switch, in years to come we'll all be labelled planet killers for buying an EV, much in the same way diesel is demonised today.

Depends what studies you read - the whole field is enormously politicised due to the amount of money involved. I've seen claimed values between 20,000 and 200,000 miles, depending on the assumptions made. Those at the upper end seem to be distinctly fishy to me - for instance they always seem to assume that coal will be used for electricity.

 

2 minutes ago, Stones said:

Lastly, does anyone seriously think EV's will remain cheap to run? The govt will have a huge fuel duty hole in its finances to make up.  Road pricing here we come!

Possibly, although that might be quite an expensive way to raise the money. Since it all goes to general taxation rather than being hypothecated and is only about £25 billion compared to a budget of £1050 billion, I think the odds are quite good that it'll be covered by an increase in road tax plus general taxation on something else.

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Car sales for the last 12 months.  44% petrol, 36% hybrid, 15% electric, 5% diesel.  Electric sales up 50% on last year.  All non plug in car sales down.  This is why all new builds should have car chargers.

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