ASHP or Oil Boiler

[richo106]

Hi

 

We have just bought a bungalow that we will be completely renovating, it has been empty for 10 years. It currently has an old oil tank and ancient oil boiler which is no use.

 

We are in the design stage at the minute but we will be adding another story (either full or half), ground floor is majority joisted and floorboard with 600/700mm gap underneath. There is one room concrete floor which will need breaking up and re doing anyway. We will be adding an extension on the side to increase ground area.

 

At the minute we would like Wet UFH throughout the ground floor, I am looking into all available heating options. Would people also have wet UFH throughout upstairs too, under carpets? Can you run normal rads off ASHP?

 

Ive been recommended to speak to Nu-Heat has anybody dealt with these? I am an electrician and quite happy so confident with DIY...would this be DIY'able?

 

Basically the question is what would people do? Would you install a new oil boiler system or an ASHP? And the reasons why? or any other heating/dhw solutions?

 

How noisy are the ASHP? 

 

The build won't be starting for at least another 18months so will miss the RHIi deadline but reading today that there will be a new scheme called clean heat grant opening in april 2022

 

All information and advice greatly appreciated

 

Many Thanks

 

[SteamyTea]

Welcome

 

Ask yourself how much insulation you can get between your UFH pipes and the ground, you probably need 200 to 250 mm.

 

Sort out all the other thermal elements and you won't need heating upstairs.

[Wil]

Nu-Heat do reasonably good stuff but have some horrendous installation advice. It was probably 10 years ago since I used them (and fought them about de-coupling membranes under tiles). Hopefully they've moved on since then.

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, richo106 said:

Would people also have wet UFH throughout upstairs too, under carpets?

You can - no issue if you do but watch the tog rating on the carpets and underlay 

 

1 hour ago, richo106 said:

Can you run normal rads off ASHP?

Yes - just size them using a calculator that allows you to change deltaT from 50°C to 30°C and you wont be far wrong

 

1 hour ago, richo106 said:

Ive been recommended to speak to Nu-Heat has anybody dealt with these?

You’re obviously made of money …. Look up WundaTrade who can get you a much better deal

 

1 hour ago, richo106 said:

would this be DIY'able?

Yep absolutely. 
 

1 hour ago, richo106 said:

How noisy are the ASHP? 

Quieter than an oil boiler burner ..!

 

Get your insulation and air tightness sorted and your heat requirement becomes less. 

[richo106]

20 minutes ago, PeterW said:

You can - no issue if you do but watch the tog rating on the carpets and underlay 

 

Yes - just size them using a calculator that allows you to change deltaT from 50°C to 30°C and you wont be far wrong

 

You’re obviously made of money …. Look up WundaTrade who can get you a much better deal

 

Yep absolutely. 
 

Quieter than an oil boiler burner ..!

 

Get your insulation and air tightness sorted and your heat requirement becomes less. 

Thanks for your replies!

 

Our budget is very tight for what we are hoping to achieve so any money saved anywhere is a big help.

 

I have never installed anything like this in any of my previous projects so just need some expert advice that's why I thought nu-heat may be a good place to start.

 

I am based in between Nottingham and Leicester so if any has any recommendations for companies that would also be good. 

 

 

[patp]

Do think about solar panels if you are going down the route of ASHP. The new development next to us is having a turnover of buyers due to high electricity costs on their ASHP designed heating systems.

[ProDave]

8 minutes ago, patp said:

Do think about solar panels if you are going down the route of ASHP. The new development next to us is having a turnover of buyers due to high electricity costs on their ASHP designed heating systems.

What do they call high electricity costs?  That is probably cheap developer house and lack of insulation rather than anything fundamentaly wrong with ASHP heating.

[Conor]

You probably won't want to hear this, but going by the sound of things, you'd be better off demolishing the existing house and building a new one. If you are removing the roof, adding a story, building an extension, you'll have the building back to nothing more than a few walls.

[Ronan 1]

21 minutes ago, Conor said:

You probably won't want to hear this, but going by the sound of things, you'd be better off demolishing the existing house and building a new one. If you are removing the roof, adding a story, building an extension, you'll have the building back to nothing more than a few walls.

+1

[SteamyTea]

Do you know how an ASHP really works and what the limitations are?

And have you done a heat loss calculation?

[Triassic]

40 minutes ago, Ronan 1 said:

+1

 

1 hour ago, Conor said:

You probably won't want to hear this, but going by the sound of things, you'd be better off demolishing the existing house and building a new one. If you are removing the roof, adding a story, building an extension, you'll have the building back to nothing more than a few walls.

Demolish and start again, a major renovation is a money pit. I’ve done both and demolition is the way to go.

[richo106]

I would love to be able to knock it down and rebuild. But the budget just wouldn’t allow it I don’t think. When I get the plans through from the architect I am going to explore both avenues

[Dave Jones]

 

[Cpd]

Well that’s 13:55 minutes of my life I am not getting back………..

[markc]

3 minutes ago, Cpd said:

Well that’s 13:55 minutes of my life I am not getting back………..

I nearly watched it last night, dont think ill bother now.

[SteamyTea]

4 minutes ago, Cpd said:

Well that’s 13:55 minutes of my life I am not getting back

That is Dave Jones trolling again.

[dpmiller]

the Youtube comments are priceless!

[IanR]

19 hours ago, richo106 said:

Basically the question is what would people do? Would you install a new oil boiler system or an ASHP? And the reasons why? or any other heating/dhw solutions?

 

How noisy are the ASHP? 

 

I'd personally do everything possible to avoid an oil boiler. The heating system is a long term investment and the pressure to move away from all fossil fuel heating systems will be ratcheted up over the next few years, starting with building regs changes next year.

 

Since you are embarking on a substantial renovation you have the ideal opportunity to convert the property to a low-temp heating system, just as the 2022 building regs will be forcing on all new builds.

 

You already plan UFH, so you just need to include a suitably sized water cylinder and you've future proofed your house. With those items in place, an ASHP install will be a similar cost to an Oil boiler install. If you go the RHI / Clean Heat Grant route then yes, the MSC Install will cost more for the ASHP which will be offset by the grant, but a non-MSC ASHP install would be similar priced to the Oil Boiler install. If the Clean Heat Grant is anything like RHI, I'd go this route and go with the best COP you can afford.

 

I was brought up in a farmhouse with an Oil Boiler and can attest to them being significantly more noisy than an ASHP. Ours always smelt as well, and it still does today.

 

Which ever heating method, insulate as well as you can afford, especially underneath UFH, and improve air tightness where ever possible. These are simple things to do now, while you are renovating, but very disruptive in 10 years time when you need to replace a fossil fuel boiler and the Government has outlawed anything other than zero carbon heating systems.

[SteamyTea]

27 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

the Youtube comments are priceless!

I added mine for a laugh.

[joe90]

+1 for an ASHP, I have one and it works well. The only heat pumps that do not work properly are the badly designed ones . +1 to also concentrate on insulation and airtightness, you only do this once and benefit forever. Fuel of any sort costs money and will never go down in price. 

[jack]

He was actually doing really well I thought, until he said this: "On a good day we're getting a COP of around 3, say, if we're lucky, maybe 2". And then apparently when it gets cold, the COP drops to 1. I turned it off at that point.

 

I think the real issue with heat pumps is the fact they're being pushed and funded, which means the usual cowboys and idiots are being attracted into the space. 

[richo106]

Thanks for all the comments

 

I will be definitely be insulating the property as well as I can.

 

I have been looking into insulating the suspended floor before UFH, the method I've seen is that battening under the joists, laying kingspan in the joists leaving room to clip the UFH pipes to and then screed(or similar) up to the level of the joists. Would I need to do anything else? Or is there better ways of doing this? Would 5" joists be suitable for this?

 

If I was to tile onto this what would I fix over the top of the UFH/Joists?

 

Sorry for all the questions I am just trying to get my head around it all

 

Many Thanks

[saveasteading]

Refurb or demolish and rebuild?

A commercial builder will demolish and start again. It removes risk, allows the work to proceed without special details, and gets the job done much more quickly, and time is money in both overhead and cashflow.

 

In business I have done both. It can be difficult to persuade the client that his building is worth less than nothing, and should come down. 'I will give you 2 quotes' resolves everything.

On the other hand, if a building can be adapted it is 'a good thing', and can save a lot of money. 

 

A private diy builder may have more time and flexibility, to make use of what is there. It really depends on the building and your own circumstances.

Hence we (extended family) are on our 7th repair and modernise project, and have never done new.

 

There will be unexpected issues in a refurb for which you must allow costs. 5%-10% minimum even after expertly identifying problems.  There will seldom be surprise good news.

 

[Dave Jones]

22 hours ago, richo106 said:

Hi

 

We have just bought a bungalow that we will be completely renovating, it has been empty for 10 years. It currently has an old oil tank and ancient oil boiler which is no use.

 

We are in the design stage at the minute but we will be adding another story (either full or half), ground floor is majority joisted and floorboard with 600/700mm gap underneath. There is one room concrete floor which will need breaking up and re doing anyway. We will be adding an extension on the side to increase ground area.

 

At the minute we would like Wet UFH throughout the ground floor, I am looking into all available heating options. Would people also have wet UFH throughout upstairs too, under carpets? Can you run normal rads off ASHP?

 

Ive been recommended to speak to Nu-Heat has anybody dealt with these? I am an electrician and quite happy so confident with DIY...would this be DIY'able?

 

Basically the question is what would people do? Would you install a new oil boiler system or an ASHP? And the reasons why? or any other heating/dhw solutions?

 

How noisy are the ASHP? 

 

The build won't be starting for at least another 18months so will miss the RHIi deadline but reading today that there will be a new scheme called clean heat grant opening in april 2022

 

All information and advice greatly appreciated

 

Many Thanks

 

 

heat pump = giving up limitless cheap hot water and going back to the old days of tanks and cylinders.

 

they are viable for niche builds where ££££ can be spent getting every last detail to make them work but be very wary on a retrofit. They guzzle electric in the winter.

[ProDave]

Just now, Dave Jones said:

 

heat pump = giving up limitless cheap hot water and going back to the old days of tanks and cylinders.

 

they are viable for niche builds where ££££ can be spent getting every last detail to make them work but be very wary on a retrofit. They guzzle electric in the winter.

Compared to what?  A combi boiler?

 

Sure it has limitless hot water but I am staying in a property served by a combi and it is lousy, the variable temperature of the hot water, and the loooooong time it takes to delver hot water when first turned on.

 

Give me a hot water tank full of 48 degree hot water that arrives at the tap quickly and is a constant temperature regardless of flow rate any day.

 

I think the big issue with ASHP's is there are a lot of people (and cowboy installers) expecting to swap a gas or oil boiler driving radiators for an ASHP and expect it to work.  It won't.  This is going to lead to a lot of people disappointed with ASHP's and plastering the internet saying how rubbish they are rather than how rubbish the system design (or lack of design) was.