German fancy kitchens

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, pocster said:

Because they inflate the price by 80% ! ?

I’ll sell you my iPhone for £10,000 . Luckily today I am having a special one off deal of 95% off that price . Please sign here ..........

 

IPhone? I'd buy walk on glazing before an Apple product ?

[puntloos]

On 11/03/2021 at 21:11, ryder72 said:

Leicht is one of the best value kitchens that also offer great features. Effectively Siematic for a lot less.

 

Almost all German products are better than the bog standard British kitchen, but not all of them add the clever features that Leicht offer.

Hey @ryder72 you mentioned "some german brands are peddled as high class even though they are entry" (but but but GERMAN!). 

Could I perhaps tempt you to rank a few german kitchen mfgs in those 3 groups - entry, midlevel, high? 

 

Effectively ha, since I'm cheap, I'm looking for "lower middle class" Leicht seems to be your recommendation, but would love an alternative or 2? Poggenpohl and siematic are probably high (or are these the 'oversold' ones even though they of course also are fine)?

 

Which brand should I look into that is semi-affordable and won't disappoint me

 

And after picking a brand or 2 to investigate, how can I find a reasonable price in the UK for them? Should I let my builder buy them, or are @Russell griffiths 80% discounts really only a thing for UK-based near-scam kitcheners?

[ryder72]

As a rule a brand isnt moved upmarket. Its a retailer positioning a brand higher than it ought to be. 

 

I wont do any positioning on a public forum as it is a matter of opinion and it can open a can of worms.

Poggenpohl is a very strong brand and they have invested very heavily in the branding. Siematic is probably the better of the two products but if you have a good budget then Zeyko or Bulthaup are probably  the pinnacle.

 

Leicht will give you an alternative to Poggelpohl or Siematic for a lower price point. The quality and spec is comparable.

As for discounts, they are all made up. If a factory gives you a net buying price, you are free to make up your retail price by determining your markup and then a totally ficticious discount depending on how gullible your customer is. Its better to deal with a retailer who gives you an honest price upfront with a sustainable markup.
 

[puntloos]

18 minutes ago, ryder72 said:

As a rule a brand isnt moved upmarket. Its a retailer positioning a brand higher than it ought to be. 

 

I wont do any positioning on a public forum as it is a matter of opinion and it can open a can of worms.

 

Fair enough. I'm not too sure which can of worms as long as it's your personal opinion (unless you're worried supplier X knows you and will make your life difficult if you don't put them number 1)

 

18 minutes ago, ryder72 said:

Poggenpohl is a very strong brand and they have invested very heavily in the branding. Siematic is probably the better of the two products but if you have a good budget then Zeyko or Bulthaup are probably  the pinnacle.

 

Leicht will give you an alternative to Poggelpohl or Siematic for a lower price point. The quality and spec is comparable.

Frankly, Leicht seems still a bit above what I had in mind  - don't forget I'm coming from Magnet so presumably there's a long way up. I'd prefer something "halfway" ?

 

 

18 minutes ago, ryder72 said:

As for discounts, they are all made up. If a factory gives you a net buying price, you are free to make up your retail price by determining your markup and then a totally ficticious discount depending on how gullible your customer is. Its better to deal with a retailer who gives you an honest price upfront with a sustainable markup.
 

 

But the hard part is of course figuring out which dealer is which until you get into the door... 

Will builders themselves still have builder discounts or is it as you said, "solid" retailers will effectively give the same honest price to everybody, no matter if they have strong hands or not?

 

[Carrerahill]

On 08/02/2021 at 07:44, Russell griffiths said:

Starting to do designs for kitchens and wanted to know what difference there is in these foreign kitchens, I’m looking at the usual English suppliers and cannot find a lot of difference between any of them, same carcass materials used in all of them, some have a better product used for end panels and plinths. 

 

Happy to pay a lay a bit more for better quality, but would like to know what is better. 

 

 

I honestly think the next kitchen I do (a while off as our kitchen is not even 1 year old) I will build myself. 

 

Friend did this, he built all the cabinets and ordered doors from a shopfitter/cabinet business - they look really good and the whole lot is DIY except for the door/drawer fronts. Not a small kitchen either, he did it on his own over a few weeks with a Fes TS55 and some fairly simple tools! 

 

I got MDF CNC cut a few years ago for a fairly precision custom cabinet making project and it struck me that given carcasses use the same side panels over and over the best way would be to draw up a panel then using foil faced ply get however many needed CNC cut, then cross braces could be cut at home or if all say 600mm carcasses order those too, then work out shelf sizes and have a stack of them cut. Starting with the precision sides, all drilled with standard fixing points etc. you have basically taken out a massive margin of error and will assemble cabinets better than the staple and glue gun wielding assembly staff at Wren, Howdens etc. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Carrerahill

[ryder72]

Let me provide a better explanation -

 

Consider Brand X and Brand Y and retailers John and Paul.

 

Brand X and Y are mid markets products in Germany. Brand X is imported into UK by an importer who puts a 15% markup on the product while Brand Y is willing to sell to retailers direct from Germany. Naturally Brand Y is cheaper for similar quality to Brand X.

 

John sells X and Paul sells Y. John pays 15% more then Paul. So John has to justify his markup compared to Paul and he might do this by having a fancier showroom and calling the product a top end offering. Paul can sell it for the same markup as John and still be cheaper. Or he increases his margins  to match Johns selling price and makes a healthier margin. Paul may offer Johns prices and offer a fake discount which John cant offer making Pauls offer more attractve on the face of it. Either way the cost-quality balance is upset and then the smoke and mirrors game starts.

 

[ryder72]

5 minutes ago, puntloos said:

Fair enough. I'm not too sure which can of worms as long as it's your personal opinion (unless you're worried supplier X knows you and will make your life difficult if you don't put them number 1)

 

Frankly, Leicht seems still a bit above what I had in mind  - don't forget I'm coming from Magnet so presumably there's a long way up. I'd prefer something "halfway" ?

 

 

 

But the hard part is of course figuring out which dealer is which until you get into the door... 

Will builders themselves still have builder discounts or is it as you said, "solid" retailers will effectively give the same honest price to everybody, no matter if they have strong hands or not?

 

 

 

I am too old and ugly to worry about any suppliers. I have brands which I have worked with for years, have full confidence in the product and I will not sell anything else unless I am offered a solid reason by someone else who can match what I have for a better price. I am waiting but I doubt if this exists.

PM me and I will point you towards a few other products. Only you can decide if the 15-20% lower price is worth the drop in quality/detail/finish.

Builders discount IMO is a load of nonsense as well. If a bag of cement is bought for a tenner and sold retail for 20 but to a builder for 15, the principle is that the builder gets the price because they but a truckload of it. This argument I can buy. In reality I would like to see if the same scale exists for kitchens. When Howdens offers 80% on its units for trade accounts, you have to ask what a reasonable markup is.

[Trw144]

On 17/03/2021 at 20:26, Russell griffiths said:

It baffles me how my Howdens bills have an 80% discount from catalogue price. 

Yes, I remember having a quote for a Howdens kitchen many years ago that had a list price of about about 80k!!

[Dan F]

Other mid-range German kitches are:

- Hacker

- Alno

- Bauformat

- Schüller

 

Nobiliia/Nolte are lower end I beleive.

[Pocster]

1 hour ago, Trw144 said:

Yes, I remember having a quote for a Howdens kitchen many years ago that had a list price of about about 80k!!

Christ! That must of been all the stock in the U.K. !

Edited March 19, 2021 by pocster

[puntloos]

4 hours ago, pocster said:

Christ! That must of been all the stock in the U.K. !

 

Actually they need about 100 people to find that one cabinet in the howdens warehouses that is 100% perfect. 

 

I kid, I kid, no idea if howdens are any good or even deserve the negativity. My current rental has a howdens that is cheapish but not horrid. All depends on how much they paid I guess.

[Oz07]

Re spec what kind of thickness back panels do these German have? One point with UK suppliers DIY are the only company who seem to supply full thickness 18mm back panels. 

 

Its not the be all and end all just a genuine difference I thought worthy of mention. 

[ryder72]

On 19/03/2021 at 16:32, Dan F said:

Other mid-range German kitches are:

- Hacker

- Alno

- Bauformat

- Schüller

 

Nobiliia/Nolte are lower end I beleive.

Disagree- Nobilia ,Hacker and Schuller are all in the same marketplace as is Bauformat.

 

Alno and Nolte is mid-market.

 

[Dan F]

1 hour ago, ryder72 said:

Disagree- Nobilia ,Hacker and Schuller are all in the same marketplace as is Bauformat.

 

Alno and Nolte is mid-market.

 

Meaning Alno/Nolte are better?

 

Regardless of exact ranking, these are all brands that are likely to be better than magent,  but cheaper than Siematic I assume?

[ryder72]

I would definitely have Nolte over Alno. Alno is still a bit overrated for what it is. And yes better than the three entrry brands plus nobilia,

 

All cheaper than Siematic.

[Alexphd1]

1st hand experience on alno and wouldnt recommend it to my enemies... 

[puntloos]

And how would the slightly better UK brands compare to this? As we all agree, "German" does not have to mean good (perhaps in Alno's case?) but is Alno still better than Magnet or Crown Imperial (which I take to be the better UK brands), and if so, why? how?

 

Obviously with Magnet, Crown etc the "list price" is insane so not quite fair to compare Magnet-at-list to Siematic-at-list, but Magnet at "70% off" say?

Edited March 22, 2021 by puntloos

[Adsibob]

On 17/03/2021 at 16:32, PeterW said:

Wren was it ..?? ?

Wren did this "luckily we have a promotion at the moment" scam to me recently! Incredible how these kitchen companies don't have a basic understanding of the law of contractual misrepresentation. Inducing a customer to enter into a contract on the basis of a false representation about the availability of a price is a misrepresentation. 

Knowledgeable kitchen designer, just shame about the company's ethics.

[Taff]

Looking at Suppliers of German kitchens. Anyone have any dealings with a company called in-house. We are looking at a Schiller from them 

[Matt60]

I'm in a similar position to a few other posts on here, I'dlike something better than your average Howdens, but I am not willing to spend 10 of thousands on a kitchen.

 

I've been looking at these; Better Kitchens and like what I see on their site. Is there anyone on here who has experience of fitting a kitchen from them and can give some insight on how it measures up against the competition? 

[Adsibob]

1 hour ago, Matt60 said:

I'm in a similar position to a few other posts on here, I'dlike something better than your average Howdens, but I am not willing to spend 10 of thousands on a kitchen.

 

I've been looking at these; Better Kitchens and like what I see on their site. Is there anyone on here who has experience of fitting a kitchen from them and can give some insight on how it measures up against the competition? 

No, but I do have a lot of experience of DIY Kitchens and I see that as a barometer. Look at truspilot: DIY Kitchens gets a 4.6 rating based on 4804 reviews, whereas better kitchens only gets a 4.2 based on only 358 reviews. Although this doesn't allow one to compare DIY Kitchens vs Better Kitchens directly, at least not without knowing if they are direct competitors, it does give some guidance as to the number of reviewers who thought each company had the expectations they had formed. So if when you look at DIY Kitchens you like what you see, then there is a 92% chance those expectations will be met when you purchase from them. If you don't like the doors that are available from a company (and you are not going in frame) you could always go bespoke for doors from a joiner or specialist kitchen door manufacturer and then just buy the carcasses from the kitchen company. That's what I'm doing with my kitchen order this time around, simply because I found DIY Kitchen's styling a little bit too limited.

[markc]

Yes some laminates are better than others, but generally the board/timber underneath is of very similar quality. Cheap hinges and fittings let a lot of kitchens / windows and doors down.

Just about any production facility and cut boards accurately so fit is rarely a problem. Exchange the nasty fittings for decent quality ones and the doors will stay level and even etc.

I have a lot of experience with plant and machinery and i find German stuff to be mediocre at best and garbage in some cases, but they are dressed up to look good and most people just believe the hype and never look underneath.

[puntloos]

1 hour ago, markc said:

Yes some laminates are better than others, but generally the board/timber underneath is of very similar quality. Cheap hinges and fittings let a lot of kitchens / windows and doors down.

Just about any production facility and cut boards accurately so fit is rarely a problem. Exchange the nasty fittings for decent quality ones and the doors will stay level and even etc.

I have a lot of experience with plant and machinery and i find German stuff to be mediocre at best and garbage in some cases, but they are dressed up to look good and most people just believe the hype and never look underneath.

 

I was surprised that even siematic is using chipboard (by default, I think MDF/solid are optinos). Of course there are different quality levels but still, dip it in water and it'll 'melt'..  

[dpmiller]

You've not experienced just how smart waterproof chipboard can be.

[Vee6 dan]

19 hours ago, Matt60 said:

I'm in a similar position to a few other posts on here, I'dlike something better than your average Howdens, but I am not willing to spend 10 of thousands on a kitchen.

 

I've been looking at these; Better Kitchens and like what I see on their site. Is there anyone on here who has experience of fitting a kitchen from them and can give some insight on how it measures up against the competition? 

I’ve had one from them, no problems apart from delivered a day later than planned. Kitchen units were equal to that of Howdens according to my fitter. Somethings they liked such as sink unit brace was the other way up so didn’t have to be cut out and some bits they didn’t. Howdens legs can be adjusted from inside the unit rather than twisting the leg underneath.
I recommend them to other people of which 4 have been purchased without any trouble.