Jaqueslecont Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 (edited) I’m in conversation with a local farmer about purchasing a barn, with a view to converting or demolishing or re building. Before I get any further down the line I’m going to consult with the local planning office. Doing some research I can see that they have recently refused permission for a build nearby on the basis that it doesn’t fit with the local sustainability plan because there are no shops nearby, and any resident would have to use a car to buy groceries. Has anyone come across this type of thing before? It seems nuts. Is there any mitigation I can make? Perhaps I should offer to build a OneStop? Edited October 6, 2020 by Jaqueslecont Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonshine Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 its a valid reason for refusal, and not having access via footpaths, bus services, facilities all add to the weight against something being sustainable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 If they applied that rule here, the Highlands would be deserted again. We have no footpath, no street lights, 3 miles to the nearest shop and no public transport. It's bloody brilliant. If push came to shove I could cycle to the shops (but it's uphill on the way back) I would prefer to walk, along the riverbank. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaqueslecont Posted October 6, 2020 Author Share Posted October 6, 2020 It’s two miles from a large town which makes it rather frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 If it is a barn then use the Class Q conversion. You won’t be able to change the exterior shape or material, but you can do a lot with it. Planners don’t like Class Q as it’s really difficult to object to if it’s an old and disused building ..! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaqueslecont Posted October 6, 2020 Author Share Posted October 6, 2020 I’d love to go class Q, but it has no floor or walls which I think takes it out of class Q permission? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 1 hour ago, Jaqueslecont said: Doing some research I can see that they have recently refused permission for a build nearby on the basis that it doesn’t fit with the local sustainability plan because there are no shops nearby, and any resident would have to use a car to buy groceries. I wonder if anyone has successfully argued that you can get groceries delivered now ? In my area they also look at access to schools and doctors though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_r_sole Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 Have a dig around to get the precise policy wording and see what the exceptions are. "Nearby" is too loose... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 12 hours ago, Temp said: In my area they also look at access to schools and doctors though. And in the not too distance future, your home PV will charge your self driving EV. 13 hours ago, ProDave said: If they applied that rule here, the Highlands would be deserted again There are probably other, bigger, reasons it is deserted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 14 hours ago, Jaqueslecont said: ... Has anyone come across this type of thing before? ... Yes. We were given permission, the applicant next door (20 meters away), was refused (at Appeal). The difference and reason given? Sustainability. Cutting a long story short, locally at least, the interpretation of the term sustainability seems to have changed recently. Notwithstanding arguments presented elsewhere by @the_r_sole, (search on this site for the term Consistency by @the_r_sole), there was qualitatively next to no difference between our application and that of our neighbours. The only real difference was temporal. I feel for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 14 hours ago, Jaqueslecont said: I’d love to go class Q, but it has no floor or walls which I think takes it out of class Q permission? I have seen some examples where there the building is like an open shelter and they have allowed the conversion. Can you post a picture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kxi Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 @Jaqueslecont Yes no walls is usually a problem for class Q, following the Hibbitt high court decision. Best bet is to ask a local planning consultant and NOT the local planning office. The local planning office will almost certainly say no to anything you suggest and may then use your discussion with them against you in future. You may find the council has online guidance on class Q, and past decision notices will also give a guide. Martin Goodall's planning law blog is good though can be hard going. Refusal based on car usage is classic. Because of course no-one within settlement boundaries ever uses their car... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 Aside I think this kind of determination will be something in play in future planning policy. perhaps we are headed back to an 8nhabited countryside on a timescale. But that does not help you. Cars will become zero emission, so arguing against their use will be difficult. I note that green arguments wrt cars shifted from ‘emissions’ to ‘congestion’ years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 What about farmers/farm hands etc that work in the countryside (and have no wish to live in a city). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Construction Channel Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 I had the same issue on mine. Flat refusal for a "new build" because of sustainability. They did however let me convert it into a holiday let as that was still commercial so didnt need change of use. Which means that i did the work under permitted development. I had to keep 50% of the existing walls but no one seemed to care when 25% of that got blown over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 18 minutes ago, joe90 said: What about farmers/farm hands etc that work in the countryside (and have no wish to live in a city). Farming has changed beyond recognition in the last 50 years. Less that 1% of the workforce is involved in it. Tends to being going towards automation and specialist contractors. I am wary of old farming practices, and old farmers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpd Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 17 hours ago, ProDave said: If they applied that rule here, the Highlands would be deserted again. We have no footpath, no street lights, 3 miles to the nearest shop and no public transport. It's bloody brilliant. Same here..... 2.5 miles to the nearest paved road - 3 miles to the nearest street light and 3.5 miles to the nearest shop...... great stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJNewton Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 19 hours ago, Jaqueslecont said: Perhaps I should offer to build a OneStop? Yes, as well as a KFC and Costa if that's what they want in place before houses can be built... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrerahill Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, Jaqueslecont said: It’s two miles from a large town which makes it rather frustrating. Tell them you will have an electric car and charge point! This is madness, look at all the future ghettos that are being built on scraps of poor land miles from anything by the big builders - not even a school that close but hey, build 500 new homes and put a bus stop outside it and it will be grand! Edited October 7, 2020 by Carrerahill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, MJNewton said: Yes, as well as a KFC and Costa if that's what they want in place before houses can be built Got both of them near me, and a Domino, MacD, Subway, Tesco, Sainsbury, Morrison, Halfords, B&M, Poundland, any many more. And this view. And every summer, a few million new people to meet. Edited October 7, 2020 by SteamyTea 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSB Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 I have been following class q applications in East Suffolk for a long time now to get experience before we applied. In my experience they will give permission for old pretty barns 'heritage assets' whether they have 4 walls or not. If you have a perfectly structurally sound modern barn then in 9 cases out of 10 they seem to find a reason to refuse. The most common reason seems to be where it is and the sustainability issue. We did get planning for ours in the end, but it took years, 4 applications, contamination surveys, ecology surveys, structural surveys, archaeology surveys, it got to the stage where we had spent so much money that we just had to keep going. In the end I think they got bored of me applying again and again and asking lots of questions in between. Our barn is modern, built in the 60's, does have 3.25 out of 4 walls, is sound and is 100m from our house, so many of their objections were unfounded because it is classed as near other dwellings. It is ugly, certainly not an asset, that was noted in the approval, that it would look much better converted. But, going back to your original point, I don't think a dutch barn, 4 poles and a roof of modern construction has much chance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 4 hours ago, SteamyTea said: Farming has changed beyond recognition in the last 50 years. Less that 1% of the workforce is involved in it. Tends to being going towards automation and specialist contractors. I am wary of old farming practices, and old farmers. That will be interesting as there's quite a movement in favour of artisan, inefficient, extensive, expensive farming. I still don't know how they will square all these extra woodlands and nature reserves, less efficient farming and improving food security by reducing imports. It's not very long since I heard a baker on Farming Today explaining that the £4 loaves they sell were far healthier and they did some at cheap prices for poor people, but needed lots of subsidy so everyone could have some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaqueslecont Posted October 7, 2020 Author Share Posted October 7, 2020 This is the place. Spoke to a planning consultant today who is giving me some advice on a pre application meeting/ correspondence. I think part Q is a non starter so it’ll probably be all in. I need to push the sustainability pitch in other ways. Environmental credentials? Working with the local college students as a sustainability project? Open a small holding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 9 hours ago, SteamyTea said: Farming has changed beyond recognition in the last 50 years. Less that 1% of the workforce is involved in it. Tends to being going towards automation and specialist contractors. I am wary of old farming practices, and old farmers. well we are passed by tractors being driven by people all day, they need to live somewhere (local!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 7 minutes ago, joe90 said: well we are passed by tractors being driven by people all day, they need to live somewhere (local!) We live in a place of higher than average agriculture, but nationally, the employment is very low (like fishing, not many fishermen in Buckinghamshire). I am all for building more housing in the countryside, a lot more housing, and especially keen on converting old buildings. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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