ToughButterCup

This is the pre-cursor to this thread . I was cross after I wrote the final post on that thread - said I would go and swim the dogs. A useful safety valve. Well, the pause made a difference. SWMBO asked a simple question that brought me up short. Whats to stop us withdrawing our VAT refund application based on an Entry in the Valuation List, and wait until we have a proper Completion Certificate? The motivation behind the question is - after a good deal of my own research - I have finally understood one of the main things @jack and @newhome are really saying in what they write. In short , where the refund application is the least bit complex, they point to the arbitrariness of HMRC decisions. Anyone got a good reason why we should NOT withdraw?

I am really no expert. But I read a lot. The answers are likely to centre on airtightness (well, the opposite - leakage) The U value of the build material Thermal bridges Do you have chimney? If so, it works 24 / 7 / 366 drawing air out of your house The orientation of your house in relation to the passage of the sun Proper knowledgeable folk will be along in a minute. Welcome, by the way. Ian

Thats the difficult decision we had to make. Never mind how the self-builder gets to cashlessness, many self builders get there in the fervent hope of achieving the opposite : a bit to spare. But, when after deciding to accept that we're going to have to have a lower VAT reclaim than if we'd submitted a full-on Completion Certificate , to find that HMRC are Hell-bent on trying to apply a hidden trigger for the application process (Occupancy) is more than a little annoying. I have spent several hours reading today: HMRC internal Guidance, BH, @jack, @newhome 's posts, Finance and Tax Tribunal decisions (Category Builders 37, subcategory Do It Yourself, 37.1), and the like , I see it is common for inconsistency to reign. In fact the only thing that is consistent is inconsistency. @jack blows a fuse about it all over this sub-board. I'm currently reading up on what consitutes occupancy, or rather which aspects of a self build automatically discount the classification ' fit for occupancy' . Hell, thats a mine field too. Off to go and swim the dogs in the river. 'kin' 'ell am I cross.

Yes. There are two levels of Valuation Officers. The one in the VOA , and the other at local Council level. I talked to both. The VOA said they automatically send their letter of notification to both the the local council and the self builder. I never got a letter from the VOA . But the local council copied it to me. Both letters of notification are generated and sent by the VOA at the same time. Both letters are dated 21st April 2021. That's the date which counts as far as HMRC is concerned ( see earlier post) I talked to the local council Valuation Officer. She has more detailed evidence - like when she sent her assessment of occupation to the VOA. She backs up my story. Both of us were informed of HMRCs decision on or immediately after 26th April. To me , applying by 7th July is within the guidance given by HMRC. I'm sorry to have to tell you that it already is and has been for some time. @newhome, bless her , has set me off on a reading whirlwind on the matter. I'm going to try and summarise as much relevant information as I can and post it here. It's the least I can do to repay all the help I have had from BH members. Citizens ! Come the revolution , we will overcome. Give us Liberty to Occupy before Completion or Give us death ! (Apologies to Patrick Henry)

The clue is in the name @SteamyTea .... come on wake up lad. Bad as @pocster

Thank you so much. @newhome. A bunch of reading coming up methinks. Dave - you are also a star, son. Right - @pocster, - wake up. Read @ProDave's post above

You ain't going to like this...... shovel, spade, hole. Or digga ? French drain round the edge of your garage and anything else you can do to lower the water table. Wait for rain. Think of England, Harry and Saint George.

Yes the 45 degree rule always obtains No, they shouldn't because the 45 degree rule will have been applied No, the relevance of disability is very limited in planning terms : external ramps , handrails Solicitors are a waste of money: their opinion must be based on the logic which applies to everyone else. Here's some help in drafting planning objections.

Dave, can you find that post? I've tried fror 30 minutes and can't. If you do, could you link to it here. It's relevant to our discussion. Maybe anyone else like to give us a hand.? Its the one where J takes the Council to task for inappropriate peeping-tommery (tamsinery).

Off out to mix some concrete and get rid of all this anger that's bubbling around.

Welcome ? Yer pushin' on an open door there Jimmie ... This site, and the effort and generosity of many has ; saved us a lot of money, boosted our morale, made me smile , informed many conversations I have had with others, but most of all - walked with us. There's a palpable sense of community. That community is made all the stronger by appropriate levels of sharing of your own stuff . Losing my trousers was just about appropriate sharing - almost not, though. From another Ian, welcome.

And thats a bull's eye son. Go to the top of the class. This is what happened to me: Lovely lady from Council visits and calls it habitable (occupancy). She tells the VAT Monster. After an absence of 18months (refuse to come round) BCO pops round " - *kin' *ell Ian, you need this this and that, get it done pronto " Ian: so it's not habitable then? No, not in this state. Get this that and the other done. (Two suicide doors and other bits - fire OK) But until I get my VAT refund back I can't afford it .... VAT monster asks - DESPITE THE ASKED FOR RELEVANT, ACCURATE EVIDENCE ALREADY SUBMITTED - what did you do between occupancy and the VAT refund application? Every single dated invoice is there for the Monster to read. In other words lining themselves up to deny the VAT reclaimed between occupancy and VAT refund application Put a Notice on your property denying access to one and all without written permission from you. Put time lapse cameras up and make sure you maintain them.( @Jeremy Harris has a blog post / cautionary tale / normal post about it somewhere. And follow @ProDave's advice.

@pocster, here be DRAGONS. I respect @newhome's opinion: she's highly ikely to be right. But likely isn't certainty. What are you going to do when a Council Offical turns up on site - sniffs around and says that in his / her opinion you have a HABITABLE dwelling? (see @joe90's post earlier) Thats one of the keys now - not COMPLETION or Entry Into The Valuation List. It's that undeclared shift of focus from one to other that @newhome flags up in her excellent post here. (in the first few lines) The HMRC form VAT431NB only mentions Completion or entry into The Valuation List. It does not mention declaring the building status as HABITABLE as a key date in HMRC's decision-making process. Here's the workflow that happened in my case. Just a list of facts - no emotion. (I can already hear @ProDave wincing, sucking his teeth and playing bagpipes upside down - no kilt) Lockdown 1 has just finished : muggins is digging his foul drains by hand . Very nice lady from Wyre Valuation Office, clipboard, walks on site (Oh how i wish I'd taken @Jeremy Harris advice - the HERAS and notice argghhhh) We had an intial conversation about when / if I'd moved in : spare you the details We agreed - substantiated by a follow up email - that I'd tell her when we were 'in' Target date was january 2021 ish. Difficult to estimate because of COVID and DIY Max. Second visit of nice lady late 2020: we agree a move in date of December 1st 2020. Loads still to do on house. I question her closely on the criteria applied for her decision, and accept her judgement. Week after April 21st 2021, nice lady writes to me with a copy of the Entry into Valuation List (from the Valuation Office) , that document is dated 21st April 2021. That is the date mentioned in the HMRC Guidance (pages 6 and 7) as the date when the clock startes ticking in terms of submitting the reclaim form. July 2021 I submit my VAT claim This week, the HMRC write to me asking me to list the jobs I have done since December 2020. @Temp agrees with my suspicion: they are lining themselves up to disallow the VAT reclaimed between 1st December 2020 and July 2021 (submission date for the form) The issue I would like to draw to everyone's attention is that the form VAT431NB does not mention the date at which a house is accepted as being inhabited (called occupancy) as a new key date used by HMRC . Occupancy is an additional key indicator they now use . My objection is that they do not tell you that on the form. That's the dragon referred to above. They don't tell ya. Had it not been for @newhome's alertness and depth of study, we'd all still be in the dark. Now for a bit of emotion. The level of laziness and lack of customer focus on the part of an organsiation the size of HMRC is simply inexcusable. That kind of behaviour engenders - justifies almost - mendacity on the part of customers. Hence @ProDave's post (I think) '... never admit you're occupying the house you've built' until after completion. And why he's even now playing the bagpipes upside down somewhere in Bonnie Scotland. Can't take a joke? Don't start a self build eh? Honest. Just don't start.

Pintrest and google helped me a lot. Do an image search.

I have just had a conversation with the BC0 about exactly the some issue. Apparently there is a maximum of three month time limit between habitation and Sign off. According to our Bco the house should be signed off 3 months after habitation. I'm afraid I laughed long and hard at that . Maybe too long and hard. Anyone heard of that ?

Some readers will have read the background to this thread, if you haven't here's a Speed Read; My VAT refund application has been questioned because HMRC appears to think I applied late. I applied citing our house' Entry in the Valuation List instead of a BCO issued Completion Certificate. The Entry in the Valuation list is dated December 20202, the letter telling me that is dated April 2021. So it took 5 months for the Valuation Office to tell me that our house had been entered on that listing. Applicants for the VAT refund have three months to apply. The date of the letter telling me I applied late was dated April 2021. I applied in July 2021. HMRC are questioning why I delayed 4 months (March to July) before applying. To answer that question, all HMRC had to do was read the letter from the Valuation Office - submitted with all the other evidence requested. The full discussion is here Its worth reading because it might help you understand the meanings that HMRC apply to the words 'usually' and the significance of the Date of Habitation rather than the Date of Completion. Yesterday I rang both HMRC Helpline and the LA Valuation Office to ask for clarification. HMRC The call was taken by a call handler: he noted the issues and said he would relay my questions to the relvant team. He also scheduled a discussion with the relevant team for 27th October , pm. Valuation Office Wyre Borough I got straight through to the Valuation Office, and the Officer there was quite clear: she had the timeline of events infront of her and agreed that the date of notification was April 2021 , the Date Of Entry into the List was 1st December 2021. I thought that getting on to the relevant people straight away was - these days - worthy of note. COVID notwithstanding. There are several other issues bubbling away beneath the surface: i'll post separately about those later. Lesson Take @newhome's advice seriously. Ring the HMRC and talk to them if you move in BEFORE your house is completed. The key things to ascertain are; The date of habitation and The Completion date HMRC are tending to take the date of habitation as the key date. Not the date of Completion AND THEY DO NOT TELL YOU THAT IN THE ADVICE NOTES ON THE FORM Read @newhome's pinned thread here By now, I've learned to Take-A-Joke. 'S Friday innit: 8 hours till International Party Night . Patten Arms 6pm. Buy me a pint please. To be continued ......

Thanks very much indeed.

Excellent effort . @Onoff will promptly design the next version. But he'll never finish building it. @pocster will carry on where Clive left off. And build one out of glass. Free glass.

Yes. Yes. All part of the price. A small monitor was placed outside the nearest building (happened to be our kitchen) and the feed from that was relayed to the company office. I made my own monitor. Cost : nowt

Agree with Mark. Angle grinder . hammer , new hangers twisted nails , eye protection . It'll be fun.

The reply to @pocster immediately above applies. BUT. I recognise the importance of the pinned post written by @newhome A Guide to the VAT Reclaim Process , where she says The difference in our case is we haven't finished the build (and won't for some time to come) but have still applied for the VAT refund before '... the finish according its original plans ...' (HMRC VAT Form VAT431NB; Notes, page 6 and 7). In simple terms, once we were informed of the date of occupancy, we have tried to honour the letter of the guidance.

Yes, @pocster , you were asleep as usual ?. The BCO route is one way of indicating you are finished. However, there are several others as detailed below Here's the relevant bit from the form you have to complete; This is the key issue The 3 months will usually run from the date of the document you’re using as your completion evidence. Here's a photo Oh, that word 'usually' (above): needs to be read in conjunction with the notes provided in the main VAT thread.

No, they haven't refused it. Yet. They are asking why I applied in July given that the start date for the 3 months was in December of the year before. They are also asking us to list the items purchased between the Effective Date of Listing and the date when I applied. (First week of July 2021) The answer is it; took 5 months to tell me that - between them - the LA and the Valuation Office took 5 months to tell me that the official date for Occupancy was 1st december 2020. I was told on or just a bit later than 21st April 2021.

In our case that acceptable evidence is the Notice of Making a New Entry into the Valuation List ( rather than the Completion Certificate because we're skint) That Notice took 5 months to get to us: 2 months too late to apply.

How to set up a failed VAT reclaim application process in one easy lesson (pay attention at the back there please .... @pocster ) In brief: make the date of Entry in the Valuation List four months before you (the Valuation Office) tell both the Local Authority and the Council Tax payer have an HMRC employee who is asking why I applied more than three months after the date I was told of the listing , and 8 months after the actual listing was made by the Valuation Office, but less than 3 months after the date that the letter telling us arrived. It took the Valution Office 5 months to tell both the LA and me of the listing Another way of saying the same thing is : disqualify the claimant from applying by not telling them about the listing for 5 months. As far as HMRC are concened, that's already two months late Facts: Date of Entry to the Valuation List (called the Effective Date of Alteration) : 1st December 2020 From that date, the clock startes ticking: you have three months from that date to get your claim in. Date which the Authority (Wyre) and I were told of the listing : after the 21st April 2021 (letter dated 21st April 2021) - I make that 5 months later To add insult to injury the HMRC are asking me to list the (planned) works carried out between 1st December and the date I applied for the refund. They already have that data: all they need to do is look at the spreadsheet submitted: each entry is dated. And all entries are listed in date order. All the employee has to do is read the words and numbers. Which makes me suspicious. Are they lining themselves up to deduct the VAT claimed for items purchased between 1st December 2020 and the date I applied for the reclaim? Can't take joke? Honestly, there's no need to submit a VAT reclaim. Nobody forces ya! Make life easier, do without the money -