Hep 20 Manifold

[TerryE]

1 hour ago, bassanclan said:

Is there any reason why I couldn't run one/two pipe(s) from the manifold and T off to each of the 5 WCs planned in my house? ...  Am I missing something?

 

The pipe is cheap and very easy to pull if there are two of you working and you can use 10mm for all of these runs so it will be a doddle.

 

The main benefit is that you don't need any T's or joins behind the PBoard and you've got one pipe, one valve per appliance (or two where you have hot and cold).  This makes incremental commissioning and any testing / maintenance just so much easier.

[bassanclan]

I haven't come over to the plastic pipe side yet! It'll be in 15mm copper, so I will see how the meterage looks.

 

[Nickfromwales]

@bassanclan

I wasn't a plastic fan, but after reading @JSHarris's conclusions on EB I had no choice other than to realise that it's undeniably more practical in certain installations. 

Having a manifold gives you the non-localised isolation benefits, part commissioning, and much better flow to the outlets vs standard / series plumbing. 

If you wish to reduce the number of runs / manifold ports simply tee the WC's off the bath cold or basin cold and run 15mm instead of 10mm.

Remember that wall hung / concealed WC's will already have built in localised isolation so it's just down to having hidden T's etc where you can't get to them afterwards. Fwiw, if I were plumbing my own house from scratch I would 100% deffo be doing 'point to point' continuous runs of Hepworth plastic for a ( hidden ) joint free installation. It's a no brainer tbh, and even though I'm currently plumbing two 2 bed flats completely in copper as we speak, ( standard series plumbing so push fit joints are a no go due to size / practicality / cost ), I'd still convert when the job dictated it. With posi-joists it's just like pulling electrical cable in, and you could DIY first fix a large property, with a labourer to help handle the coils, in a few days. It also removes the risk of hot works which is a huge worry in a TF house. 

Have a sit down and reconsider your position with the copper, and that's coming from a die-hard copper fan. . 

[dogman]

@Nickfromwales Any chance you can measure the finished length of the cold manifold in your picture. i am trying to decide where best to put mine and the length will help

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, dogman said:

@Nickfromwales Any chance you can measure the finished length of the cold manifold in your picture. i am trying to decide where best to put mine and the length will help

A bit tricky mate, as I'm in Swansea and that manifold lives in oxford

 

[dogman]

No problem will see if there are any drawings of the manifolds online

[dpmiller]

I've never tried it, so what's the flow like at mains pressure down 10 or 15m of 10mm?

[Nickfromwales]

22 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

A bit tricky mate, as I'm in Swansea and that manifold lives in oxford

 

If you take each white knuckle of each manifold to be say 25mm and it looks like a 8-10mm gap between them you can just multiply that by the number of outlets you need.  

[Nickfromwales]

25 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

I've never tried it, so what's the flow like at mains pressure down 10 or 15m of 10mm?

Surprisingly adequate for a wash basin tap. More than adequate for a WC, and as the flow velocity is reduced it helps to quieten down the noise of the loo filling . 

I have both my basins off radial 10mm runs teed from a 15mm pipe coming out of my TMV and it's more than adequate. Any more and I'd not be able to flick the tap to the fully open position. 3m to first one and 6m to furthest away . 

As is I just flick the mixer tap fully open in the hot position and it comes out with good flow rates and the exact same comfortable temp every time without fannying around. 

Bingo bango. ?

[Tennentslager]

without fannying around. 

Bingo bango

WFABB

 

Can you add that one to the acronym list please? I think #ferdinand might like it too...

[Triassic]

On 24/07/2016 at 11:52, Nickfromwales said:

For Hepworth installs....

Well worth a read

https://www.jhplumb.com/system/brand_attachments/1035/original/Hep2O®_installer_guide.pdf

[MortarThePoint]

On 24/07/2016 at 11:47, Nickfromwales said:

 

This is the best 'zoom-able' pic I can find. 

The rails are supported by the pipe work which is held in place with brass Munson rings. Copper to irons on each end, and as a belt n braces job I created a ring so the manifolds got fed from both ends. I did that as the cold manifold was very long and could have suffered loss of flow and I just then carried that across to the hot manifold to as it was easy enough to do. 

The remit on that job was to be able to use all the showers at the same time and still have some useable flow / pressure elsewhere so went to town on this one. 

If you zoom in you'll see opaque / white plastic spacers in between the manifolds ( 3 to the long run ). These iirc were 28mm Talon pipe clips which held the rails with near spot on results. Another way to do this, if only feeding from just one end, would be a clip on the input pipe work and then a stub of pipe made off and cap ended ( or a DOC ) the other side, with enough pipe to get a second clip on.

 

 

An old thread, but a beautiful install and surely a standard to try to match with my own.

 

Another benefit that comes to mind with using an isolating manifold is the possibility of adjusting flow rate to basins etc. What with the required water usage calculations etc, being able to set the flow could help reach a required total without putting restrictors in the pipes themselves or buying expensive taps.

 

Did you add insulation to all the pipes after this photo was taken?

Edited May 20, 2022 by MortarThePoint

[Nickfromwales]

Yup. Insulate after a week of everything being pressurised, as a drip / dribble will not show so easily otherwise. 
 

You cannot use these isolators as attenuators, as I’ve found previously that they are quite noisy when the flow is ‘strangled’, plus the results were very unreliable in practice. Deffo use inline flow restrictors at the appliance. For the basins, 10mm pipe seems to give just the right amount of flow. 
 

Buy one and hook it up and see if that works for you, but I never use them for flow attenuation, personally, as clients like things to be as quiet as possible. 

[MortarThePoint]

2 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Yup. Insulate after a week of everything being pressurised, as a drip / dribble will not show so easily otherwise. 
 

You cannot use these isolators as attenuators, as I’ve found previously that they are quite noisy when the flow is ‘strangled’, plus the results were very unreliable in practice. Deffo use inline flow restrictors at the appliance. For the basins, 10mm pipe seems to give just the right amount of flow. 
 

Buy one and hook it up and see if that works for you, but I never use them for flow attenuation, personally, as clients like things to be as quiet as possible. 

 

The isolation benefit is reason enough to have the manifolds I think

[Nickfromwales]

Indeed. Especially on a new build where you may want to progressively make rooms live as the project moves forward. 
Saves filling up and draining down repeatedly, plus the radial arrangement gives very good flow to multiple outlets eg 2 showers running simultaneously. 

[Russdl]

2 hours ago, MortarThePoint said:

Another benefit that comes to mind with using an isolating manifold is the possibility of adjusting flow rate to basins etc. What with the required water usage calculations etc, being able to set the flow could help reach a required total without putting restrictors in the pipes themselves

Thats exactly what we did to dial down the flow to our showers to a flow rate that would make the Water Calculations work...
 

Promptly dialled back up again as the Building Control inspector waved goodbye after sign off (he never did check any flow rates though). 

[TerryE]

2 hours ago, MortarThePoint said:

The isolation benefit is reason enough to have the manifolds I think

 

I would say one benefit.  I think that the other major plus is that the plumbing is 1-1 point-to-point, so no hidden joins or branches. 

 

The "Clapham Junction" of runs in the ceiling running into manifolds is also worth planning out and routing properly to avoid getting into a rats' nest of pipework.  

 

Certainly in a new build pulling the Hep20 was a doddle: you just had to be careful to keep the pipe clear of any sharp edges such as EcoJoist webs. We used 15mm throughout for simplicity, but in retrospect we should done what Nick suggests and that is to plum the hot runs in 10mm.  Oh dear, we loose an extra ½l of water and wait an extra 5-10 sec for the hot to run hot. 🤣

 

Picking up @Russdl's point, I went round carefully trimming all the flow rates before the final inspection, but our inspector never even bothered checking.  However the only two that we changed back were kitchen and utility sink mixers.  TBH, we doc't find the low flow rates on the ensuite basins an issue.  If anything it's an advantage: before I fitted the regulators, if you turns the tap on full, then the flow was so strong, that it would shoot out of the sink and soak evertything. 

Edited May 20, 2022 by TerryE

[Chanmenie]

On 20/05/2022 at 07:37, Nickfromwales said:

Indeed. Especially on a new build where you may want to progressively make rooms live as the project moves forward. 
Saves filling up and draining down repeatedly, plus the radial arrangement gives very good flow to multiple outlets eg 2 showers running simultaneously. 

@NickfromwalesI’m about to start my build, so thinking about the routing of the rising main. If plumbing a system like in your picture Nick, would you bring the water main up into the plant room / cupboard ? Or should I just bring it up into the kitchen or utility room then run a feed to the plant room / cupboard.

The utility room is the most central. As it’s between kitchen and cylinder cupboard.

[Nickfromwales]

5 hours ago, Chanmenie said:

@NickfromwalesI’m about to start my build, so thinking about the routing of the rising main. If plumbing a system like in your picture Nick, would you bring the water main up into the plant room / cupboard ? Or should I just bring it up into the kitchen or utility room then run a feed to the plant room / cupboard.

The utility room is the most central. As it’s between kitchen and cylinder cupboard.

Bring the cold mains in wherever the softener will reside, if you need one. 
On my clients builds I bring one rising main in ( 20 or 25mm ample ) for the kitchen sink cold ( raw / hard ) feed, eg for human consumption, and the main ( 25 or 32mm typically ) at a location where the softener won’t cause a nuisance when regeneration cycle is running. That can be garage / utility / cupboard under the stairs etc, but make sure there is a low slung drain that can accept the backwash from regeneration. 
 

You then pipe the soft water to wherever the distribution manifolds are.  

[Chanmenie]

33 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Bring the cold mains in wherever the softener will reside, if you need one. 
On my clients builds I bring one rising main in ( 20 or 25mm ample ) for the kitchen sink cold ( raw / hard ) feed, eg for human consumption, and the main ( 25 or 32mm typically ) at a location where the softener won’t cause a nuisance when regeneration cycle is running. That can be garage / utility / cupboard under the stairs etc, but make sure there is a low slung drain that can accept the backwash from regeneration. 
 

You then pipe the soft water to wherever the distribution manifolds are.  

Thanks @NickfromwalesI had not planned on installing a softener though.

Although having read your response I have done some research and might consider a non salt type.

Having lived in South Norfolk for many years and never having any problems caused by hard water, I don’t feel the need for a salt type softener. 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Chanmenie

[Nickfromwales]

4 hours ago, Chanmenie said:

Thanks @NickfromwalesI had not planned on installing a softener though.

Although having read your response I have done some research and might consider a non salt type.

Having lived in South Norfolk for many years and never having any problems caused by hard water, I don’t feel the need for a salt type softener. 

If the water is not hard, then you’ll be fine. Don’t bother with the non salt water ‘conditioners’, as it’s been well discussed on here that they are found on the shelf next to the snake oil and magic beans   

[MortarThePoint]

5 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

If the water is not hard, then you’ll be fine. Don’t bother with the non salt water ‘conditioners’, as it’s been well discussed on here that they are found on the shelf next to the snake oil and magic beans   

 

Is soft water just a preference thing? Plastic pipes are better with hard water that copper aren't they?

[Nickfromwales]

5 minutes ago, MortarThePoint said:

 

Is soft water just a preference thing? Plastic pipes are better with hard water that copper aren't they?

It’s nothing to do with pipe, it’s to do with all of your outlets getting calcified up because of the hardness. It’s not so bad inside the pipes etc, but very problematic where the water dries in the atmosphere and leaves all the residual crud behind. 
 

Ask someone who lives in an aggressively hard water area to show you inside their kettle….   

[Chanmenie]

15 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

If the water is not hard, then you’ll be fine. Don’t bother with the non salt water ‘conditioners’, as it’s been well discussed on here that they are found on the shelf next to the snake oil and magic beans   

Ok thanks again @Nickfromwalesi’ll forget the softener then, so where does that leave me with the best place to bring the main in. 
is it better closer to the manifolds ?

[Nickfromwales]

Just now, Chanmenie said:

Ok thanks again @Nickfromwalesi’ll forget the softener then, so where does that leave me with the best place to bring the main in. 
is it better closer to the manifolds ?

Yup. You can then simply feed the kitchen sink also from the manifolds. 
In this pic,

the mains comes from an immediately adjacent airing cupboard in 28mm pipe, and I fed both sides of the manifolds ( like a plumbing version of a ring main ) as I then installed a 300L cold mains accumulator in the left hand side of that ‘airing cupboard’. For that particular job, the client stated he wanted to be able to use all 3 showers simultaneously, so I went to town on it.