epsilonGreedy Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Given a 3 month window prior to a digger breaking ground, which building trade skill could I acquire to lower final £/sqm build costs? I can be onsite for the first 5 months of the build and I have oodles of free dry storage space 15 miles away from the plot. My present trade skills do not progress much beyond a paint roller and a natural inclination to comprehend technical complexity. The build is a mid sized 3 bed, 2 story house of conventional brick & block on an easy site. My current plan is to self project manage with some light-touch part time pro advice from an experienced builder. I suspect the depressing rational advice is that I should focus on becoming an expert in material price negotiation, form filling, gantt chart critical path planning, caravan refurbishment and expert brewer of builders tea. What would the forum cognoscenti suggest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hecateh Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 That and labouring. Apart from standing around waiting for materials to arrive; waiting for someone else to finish their bit and generally ensuring spades stand up; a huge amount of time seems to be spent ferrying materials from one part of the plot to another. (I'm trying not get get wound up by the standing around as my price, where there are no variations, is fixed and when they do get working they work very hard) Work does progress more quickly when 'the boss' is on site (which is probably around 3/4 of the time) Oh - and give them a kettle, the cheapest mugs you can find and an endless supply of biscuits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Hecateh said: Oh - and give them a kettle, the cheapest mugs you can find and an endless supply of biscuits And cake occasionally .... Just one thought on laboring for any trade - make sure you aren’t slowing them down ..! My plasterer prefers to mix his own muck - it’s a Labourers job but by the time he’s corrected it as you have made it too thick/thin/lumpy then your time saving actually becomes a cost. The one skill every self builder needs to learn is to pay on time for the agreed work.... agree payment milestones for main contractors in advance in writing, with agreed acceptance criteria. For day rate trades, agree when an invoice will be paid (Friday for following Thursday etc) and stick to it. If there is a problem, challenge there and then and don’t just not pay the invoice or deduct something with no reason. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Realistically there is no skill you will learn in 3 months. Don't under estimate keeping the site clean and tidy and having everything that's needed arrive on time and in full. It's all about organising every step of the build and making sure you think 3 steps ahead. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hecateh Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, PeterW said: And cake occasionally .... Just one thought on laboring for any trade - make sure you aren’t slowing them down ..! My plasterer prefers to mix his own muck - it’s a Labourers job but by the time he’s corrected it as you have made it too thick/thin/lumpy then your time saving actually becomes a cost. The one skill every self builder needs to learn is to pay on time for the agreed work.... agree payment milestones for main contractors in advance in writing, with agreed acceptance criteria. For day rate trades, agree when an invoice will be paid (Friday for following Thursday etc) and stick to it. If there is a problem, challenge there and then and don’t just not pay the invoice or deduct something with no reason. +1 sometimes beer on Fridays 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizzie Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 I wholeheartedly agree with all the advice so far. A clean tidy site is not only better for working and health and safety but does much for morale and puts a marker down for how you see your build and your house, pride in the job etc. I think opening a trade account with a decent monthly credit limit (mine is £7.5k) at a good local builders merchants can be very beneficial. Essentially I get 30 days credit as I settle all on statement issued in the month following delivery so for example my December deliveries i am only paying by the end of January, also free delivery to site as and when you need it, plus makes vat invoice collecting much easier and mine will usually match internet prices and source specialist stuff not usually stocked if I give them the detail. Don’t do a trade account wih big boys - Jewsons, Travis Perkins etc they are generally more expensive. If you use a groundworks company for your dig out try and get your site toilet hire via them, it will be a cheaper rate and you will not pay vat (which is not reclaimable if you hire direct and pay plus vat) and arrange with them that you keep it for the duration - I pay £25 for my site toilet ex vat and including weekly clean the extra £5 vat would have added a fair bit as we have had a toilet on site for 9 months now. I managed to do a cash deal on my scaff too, much cheaper. A few hundred here and a few hundred there soon adds up ..... I think general labouring and very good organisational skills are the two most important things. Men on site with no materials is bad news, men not paid on time is even worse news. As soon as our garage shell was up and roofed (before house started) and we got power to it I got a cheap fridge and kettle and a load of mugs, spoons etc left industrial quantities of tea bags and coffee and sugar to start them off, I often take cake on a Friday. Good luck! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Great advice above. Be the site opener, closer & tidy upper. You're also the H&S enforcer so keep an eye out for hazards. I spent a 1/2 hour at the end of the day tidying the site & sometimes pulling timber and other recyclables or general trash out of the skip to maximise space for proper building waste. Went in the council bin or down the tip for free. You're also the proxy for the architect and BC to some degree so make sure you know every inch of your drawings and how you expect things to be done - ask questions (without getting in the way) to make sure you understand what's happening, why and if its correct. Be ready to call the architect or BC if needed to clarify details (always get a written confirmation by email before action) Sometimes you will want to change things once you get an idea of how they really work on site - in our case it was positioning of Velux - the plans had them far too high up and it was a simple tweak of a few noggins to get them right at that stage, i.e. before roofers started work. You can also be the materials purchaser where you've not got a supply and fix rate from your trade. If they buy the materials, they will be zero rated in their invoice to you. If you buy them then you'll pay the 20% up front and claim back a year or two down the road which may impact your cash flow. Most trades will not bust a gut getting you best price on everything, you may be able to beat the prices that they get but need to trade off any saving against getting materials to site on time and of sufficient quality & quantity so as not to hold them back. Given we had a timber frame build, I did not need to source much myself in the main build aside from MVHR, Velux windows, EPS insulation (for basement), lightwells and bathroom fittings & furniture plus timber & sundries for the joiner who was on a day rate (doors, skirtings, timber, fixings etc..). The landscaping has been much more supply intensive as that guy is also on a day rate also so I've paid for all the sand, cement, ballast, slabs, crush, turf, block, etc etc.. He always gets a better price than me from his regular suppliers so we use them - can be tricky to always get the invoices in my name for VAT though as they typically use his account to apply the big discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisb Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 I found I could make more of a saving by doing the (internet & phone) legwork on materials than putting time into manual labour on site. The only exception is probably sorting waste - I have pulled out at least 3 skiploads of rubbish that can legitimately go to the tip, leaving the skip free for hardcore and plasterboard that can't at £390/skip, that's a fair bit. If you can negotiate with your builder to supply materials then you can save serious cash. Get yourself a cashback credit card and make your purchases on there if you can, as merchants prices are cheaper for cash/card than account plus you get the cashback too. Get to know cheapest suppliers locally, or where you can get quick delivery from online. Also work out any materials that may have long lead times: bricks, insulation, tiles etc. You could end up waiting 6 weeks or more for some of these. Big savings can sometimes be made if you don't need the stuff ASAP. Keep a look out / register for monthly bargains from merchants - smart buying when offers are on saves £££. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 On 30/01/2018 at 15:41, chrisb said: Also work out any materials that may have long lead times: bricks, insulation, tiles etc. You could end up waiting 6 weeks or more for some of these. Big savings can sometimes be made if you don't need the stuff ASAP. One that catches a good few of us out. Nowt worse than guys arriving and no gear. Some extra tiles for the ones that are damaged in transit are a must . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Buy a digger, learn to drive it and dig your own foundations. Go on, you know you want to...... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlewhouse Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 (edited) I'd disagree that there are not useful things you can learn in 3 months. Take a look at your local FE college, ours does 10 nights of beginners bricklaying, plastering, decorating skills and so on - each course is just £50 an absolute bargain working out at £5 for 1.5 hours teaching! Whilst you won't be building the house, you may like me end up building garden retaining walls, (plus my blockwork garage), doing lots of joinery, and so on, on jobs where you can take time over, whereas on the house build proper, time is of the essence so best left to the pros. Plus, a better understanding of any trade allows you to talk more knowledgably with the experts - it's surprising how a few key phrases gets you a bit of respect and can help you in other ways - it also can go a long way in the builders/plumbers/electrical merchants I have found, and I have no doubt at all I've had better service for being able to "talk the talk" (don't go in neatly dressed! I even got trade price at one electrical wholesalers despite paying cash by wearing a very worn and scruffy "Mira Showers" sweatshirt which had belonged to my electrician father before he retired - complete blagging that I'm a professional electrician without actually saying it - I'd noticed previously that they give the cash cowboys trade prices even though they (for obvious reasons) don't have a proper trade account). Having said that, I tried to get onto our local FE college night classes in bricklaying for 3 years in a row but they were so undersubscribed they never ran them . There is also another thing to consider - perhaps you can be too practical. During this process I've found various trades asking me to do bits of prep or saying they need this or that done before they can proceed/continue, which I don't think can happen in most builds they do as most people these days probably don't even own a screwdriver - I was commenting on this and both my wife and my father think it's because they know I'm very practical and see me plumbing, wiring, building and so on and try an exploit it a bit. Youtube is also your friend. There are some amazingly detailed instructive courses put on there by people for free. I learned to lay blocks, lay my dry screed floors in the smallest rooms, and am currently plastering! All learned from several hours on YouTube. As regards the comment about tidying the site up - that's great advice, because believe me no one else is going to do it! If you can and are in a place that's allowed, burn waste wood etc. and look for creative uses for waste - it's surprising what people will take if you offer it for free to get rid of it. We have the whole house up and so far I've not had to pay for a single skip. Edited January 30, 2018 by curlewhouse 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bissoejosh Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, ProDave said: Buy a digger, learn to drive it and dig your own foundations. Go on, you know you want to...... If I'd done my research earlier (and found this forum!) I'd have done exactly this. I drive hired ones now rather than using a contractor which is still cheaper but I really wish I'd bought an excavator at the beginning. There are so many jobs I could be doing whilst waiting for something else but can't as hiring for short periods makes no sense with delivery charges etc. Edited January 30, 2018 by bissoejosh more info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 8 hours ago, Declan52 said: Realistically there is no skill you will learn in 3 months. I disagree, there is almost no skill you cannot learn in 3 months - its a 1000+ hours (at 12 hours a day). The average school year is only 1150 hours and if you take a look at the contact time you get at some Universities 1000 hours is almost a degree! That said, if I were @epsilonGreedy, I would do what I did in those developing ideas months and learn to bake bread - you are never short of a sandwich, its always fresh and the smell is wonderful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hecateh Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 The kind of skill that a person can learn in 3 months is EG how to build a wall - on a flat surface with no pressure; or how to plaster a square wall with a reasonable level of accuracy. This person would have no idea what to do if eg the weather is against you; there are retaining issues; the SE specifies a particular bond; the BI asks you 'why have you xxx?'. Building a house isn't like building a raised bed or even a garage. FOR SURE if (if) you have life experience; friends in the know; access to building know how etc etc you can build. But in no way will 3 months experience in anything qualify you to the necessary level to independently approach any level of house building. This is purely the opinion of someone with no qualifications at all in this area but with lots of life experience and training experience WHO has very much learned that knowing how to do something and being able to do it to a good level without external input in less than perfect conditions and facing unexpected challenges is a very different issue. Unless you are a very unusual individual 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragg987 Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 I tend to be more "forgiving" if I do something and the outcome is OK, vs if I pay a professional to do the same thing. Would I call someone 3 months into a trade a professional - NO, more of an apprentice, so I might be more tolerant of their work. I believe 3 months gives you enough to perform a trade at a basic level, and that may well be OK, but it is likely you can pay someone to do it better and certainly much quicker. Having said all that, if I was on as small a budget as @epsilonGreedy appears to be, I would accept that my good enough is better than nothing. In that case pick something where the consequences of getting it slightly wrong do not lead to a disaster - e.g. it your plumbing leaks after your walls are nicely painted (disaster) vs if you plaster and it is not so flat (acceptable). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Plastering / Rendering in a normal house you’ll be putting miles of it on, materials are cheap and if you cock up its not going to kill anyone or cause massive damage unlike electrics or plumbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichS Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Well I served a 6 year apprenticeship and I've just retired, and I consider I was still learning !! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, RichS said: Well I served a 6 year apprenticeship and I've just retired, and I consider I was still learning !! Good point! The trouble with trying to pick up something new in a short time period like 3 months is that you don't know what you don't know! Donald Rumsfeld said it very well: "There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know." Edited January 31, 2018 by Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 MVHR install is one job that most of the self builders here have DIYd - almost a rite of passage. Saves a few £k on install fees. @JSHarris and @JanetE did their own plumbing, plenty others have done substantial bits of their own builds (foundations, roofing etc..). Plus the finishing jobs of plastering, tiling, painting etc.. Your challenge really is that the most critical stage, getting to a weathertight shell, will be happening when you are free but when you probably have least to offer and risk slowing things down (time is money). First and second fix are when you're likely to be able to make more of a 'best effort' contribution at your own pace. Another role you can play is to record everything that's happening onsite through daily diaries and extensive photos (both close up detail and from a distance) as you'll refer back to that archive time and time again during the build. You should also be ready to know every dimension of the build and carry a tape and laser to check that everything is as it should be. You need to be the one thinking about ensuring allowances for services runs, joist positioning for shower wastes etc, etc. First fix is normally when you realise all the things you should have thought about during the earlier stages of the build. While everything can always be fixed, this is where unplanned costs start to rack up, especially labour if one trade now needs double the time to correct the mistake of a preceeding trade (ask @Nickfromwales how much joinery he used to do on a new build job...). Just being on site daily makes a big difference - we lived in a caravan in the garden and all the trades were more than happy to come and knock if they wanted to double check something. Also got used to me wandering around all the time - didn't feel like I was checking up on them. As the old saying goes, "It's the work that's inspected, not the work that's expected..." 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 10 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said: I disagree, there is almost no skill you cannot learn in 3 months - its a 1000+ hours (at 12 hours a day). The average school year is only 1150 hours and if you take a look at the contact time you get at some Universities 1000 hours is almost a degree! That said, if I were @epsilonGreedy, I would do what I did in those developing ideas months and learn to bake bread - you are never short of a sandwich, its always fresh and the smell is wonderful. There is no way after just 3 months of learning that you will be up to any kind of standard to attempt to build blocks in a foundation or the walls of a house. A low garden wall at a stretch maybe. As for plastering it really is a skill. After 3 months you wouldn't have the strength in your wrists or chest to be able to lift a hawk and scoop up a trowel full and smooth it on to a wall unless you like the old wonky Spanish look. You maybe could learn how to hang a door but are you going to be confident enough to take on a door worth a few hundred quid. Same goes with plumbing you could learn how to do a few simple connections and joints but a full house??? Don't even touch electrics far too much can go wrong!!! Sometimes you just have to be honest about your skill set and use your time on things that will save you money. Trawling the internet for deals, driving hard bargains in builders merchant, being organised and a very important one realising that somewhere along the build something will go wrong so don't stress out to much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Three months will give you enough knowledge to be dangerous. Read a lot further into stories recalled here of who's done what and the layers soon start to peel away as to how they actually came to be skilled enough to do what they've done. Plumbed previous jobs or always had a go at plumbing over the years...... Done tiling inbpreviius properties...... Truth is, if your on site managing and 'observing' other trades and trying to get something done you'll end up distracted and just muddling through. Ok if it's fitting a bathroom after the rooms been vacated but if your holding anyone ( paid trade ) up then not ok. Fitting mvhr? Crack on, it's just pulling ducts through gaps for the first fix. Plumbing? Anyone can push two bits of speedfit into a fitting after an hour on YouTube, but what about the sizing and basic principles ? ( where do you need double check valves, what size pipe goes to what etc ). A lot can be gleaned from here but that would take most of your 3 months to read and absorb TBH, so my 2 cents... Be the oil for the cogs. Clean up so your trades are doing meaningful work for the day rate your paying. No way I'd want a sweeper upper on part of £180 a day Run for stuff when it's missing or soon to run out. Make tea. Make sure the portaloo is clean and stocked. We may be tradesmen but I don't want to use a filthy stinky toilet and will just pee behind it. Bring beer by all means, but ONLY on a Friday and ONLY late in the afternoon. NEVER in the week as it sets a bad example. This may sound negative, but it's actually very good advice from someone who's been in this environment for a LONG time. Practising / learning in your own house isn't anything I'd recommend. It took me a decade of watching plasterers before I bought my plastering tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hecateh Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 9 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said: Bring beer by all means, but ONLY on a Friday and ONLY late in the afternoon. Yep beer day is definitely only Friday at the end of the working day - they got chocolate as well Christmas week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Any jobs going ? ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epsilonGreedy Posted January 31, 2018 Author Share Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) Some divergent opinions here. I should have clarified that I would not expect to eliminate a complete trade skill with my newly acquired personal skill. For example as a rookie brickie I might be able to assist a team of two pro's in the day but not lay bricks and then in the evenings and weekends lay 1500 bricks for the garage once the pro's have built up the corners for me. Plastering is a black art I thought mastered by few, I need to reassess that view. Summarizing the advice in this thread, the most useful contributions I can make are: 1 - Maintain velocity with an onsite presence by... Keeping the site tidy. Opening up the site daily. Making sure supplies arrive on time. Resolving ambiguity by knowing the plans intimately and making tactical decisions. Scheduling trades 1 to 2 months ahead. [Edit] Clean the portaloo. 2 - Save money by... Negotiating material prices. Buying in advance. Cutting down skip costs through picking over the contents. Doing project management paperwork. 3 - Reduce labour costs by learning two simple pre and post first fix trade skills e.g. brick laying and plastering. 4 - Save on finishing costs through hands-on decorating, tiling and hard/soft landscaping. Savings arising might be: Maintain velocity = Advance completion date 2 months = £2,200 avoided on other home rental and site insurance months avoided. Negotiating material prices = 5% of £70,000 = £3,500 Buying in advance = 2% of £20,000 = £400 Cutting down skip costs = £500 Laying 1500 garage bricks = £600 Skim least two visible bedrooms = £ ?? Decorate 3 bedrooms and two main rooms down stairs = £750 ? Total = £6200 (in build) + £2,000 (rental avoided). And the saving of not having a full time PM = £15,000 - £3,000 (for occasional light touch consultancy) = £ 12,000. Grand total of £20,200 but happy to accept corrections. Edited January 31, 2018 by epsilonGreedy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragg987 Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 I think your summary is a good place to reflect. For example. 17 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said: Laying 1500 garage bricks = £600 Assuming you lay these at 30 bricks per hour it will take you 50 hrs to do, saving £12 per hour. Your brickie will do this in 16hrs. 20 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said: Negotiating material prices = 5% of £70,000 = £3,500 Buying in advance = 2% of £20,000 = £400 Assuming it takes 20hrs to do this, saving £20 per hour. I think the savings can be MUCH larger compared to your builder popping into TP on the way in to the build. Scour internet / eBay etc and ask for discounts, purchase from Europe, so the hourly saving could be £40 upwards. If you are going to prioritise on that basis, it is a no brainer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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