In praise of ASHPs

[Square Feet]

Article in The Guardian today

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/08/greener-cheaper-much-warmer-heat-pump-owners-laud-their-new-system

[ProDave]

Well when you compare an un insulated house with about the most expensive heating you can get (bottled LPG) to the same house with internal wall insulation and an ASHP it is going to be cheaper.

 

What this shows is the level of (in their words) very invasive work required to achieve the result.

 

The issue is can the government afford grants to all the old poorly insulated houses, or are the owners expected to pay?  This shows what is possible, now someone has to discuss the logistics and finances.

[TonyT]

New central heating is invasive

so is a full rewire 

 

[Russell griffiths]

I don’t see why the government should pay for you to upgrade your draughty 1930’s house because you haven’t done anything to it in the last 20 years. 

People need to be a bit more responsible for themselves. 

All a grant will do is manufacture loads of new crappy insulation companies 

[SteamyTea]

  On 08/01/2024 at 15:08, Russell griffiths said:

People need to be a bit more responsible for themselves

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If the got their old O Level Physics  books out it would help.

 

I have to agree that home owners should not get grants. They will be the same home owners that complain about the amount of tax they pay. Or how much they are scammed by the energy companies.

 

There was something on the radio today about Mouldy Homes (again).

Seems to be single parents with small children that are interviewed the most.

I suspect it would be cheaper for the housing association to just pay the energy bills that try and upgrade the properties with the tent in there.

When tenant moves, then upgrade.

I also suspect the same tenants have the same problems i.e. can't afford the energy, lots of mould, whichever home they are sent to.

 

[ProDave]

  On 08/01/2024 at 15:21, SteamyTea said:

I also suspect the same tenants have the same problems i.e. can't afford the energy, lots of mould, whichever home they are sent to.

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Don't get me started on that, first hand experience.  No I don't want to be a landlord again, EVER.

[Tom]

  On 08/01/2024 at 15:21, SteamyTea said:

Seems to be single parents with small children that are interviewed the most.

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 Usually because they blame their children's breathing problems on the mould - not their twenty Rothman's/day

[ProDave]

  On 08/01/2024 at 15:21, SteamyTea said:

I have to agree that home owners should not get grants. They will be the same home owners that complain about the amount of tax they pay. Or how much they are scammed by the energy companies.

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It is my opinion that the market should value houses with a poor EPC lower than those with a good EPC to reflect the higher running costs or the future upgrade costs.

 

Which is why at the moment I don't wish to own such a property as I don't want to be the one suffering the drop in value when the market wakes up to reality.

[joth]

I think there's a place for means tested grants for fabric upgrades. It's a positive way to make progress on net zero, build up the industry, tackle energy poverty and housing crisis, and ensure the hand outs actually go to improving the wellbeing of the children in the house and rather than wherever else it might end up if it was just handed out as cash 

 

[Square Feet]

I'd love an ASHP but I can't afford one - with a grant I might just do it though.  We won't shift the dial on climate change without grants and subsidies.  

[markc]

Grants come from the tax payer and just inflate the cost of something.

[ProDave]

  On 09/01/2024 at 10:07, Square Feet said:

I'd love an ASHP but I can't afford one - with a grant I might just do it though.  We won't shift the dial on climate change without grants and subsidies.  

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Look at other threads,  Most "installed" prices seem to be inflated to harvest the grant for the benefit of the installer.  If you just buy an ASHP and then pay an ordinary plumber and electrician to install it you will get it fitted for under £5K

[SteamyTea]

  On 09/01/2024 at 10:07, Square Feet said:

We won't shift the dial on climate change without grants and subsidies

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With wind and solar power now being the cheapest to deploy, and a lot faster than hydro and nuclear, I am not so sure.

 

  On 09/01/2024 at 10:29, ProDave said:

Most "installed" prices seem to be inflated to harvest the grant for the benefit of the installer.

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They do dangle the MCS Quality Assurance as a plus point i.e. correctly calculated size and back up if the installer vanishes.

My local council offers a similar assurance that they will pay up for car damage if you hit a pot hole.  3 of us hit the same pot hole one night.  When we tried to claim the council said we needed to measure the depth of the hole.  The (expletive deleted)ers had filled it in.

I suspect that the MCS scheme is similar, used to be called REAL, REA when I was dealing with PV.  Never heard of anyone managing to get a successful claim.

[joe90]

  On 09/01/2024 at 10:38, SteamyTea said:

Never heard of anyone managing to get a successful claim.

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A bit like NHBC 🤷‍♂️

[SteamyTea]

  On 09/01/2024 at 11:19, joe90 said:

A bit like NHBC

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Probably the same business model.

Set up to protect the companies, not the end users.

[JamesPa]

  On 09/01/2024 at 10:29, ProDave said:

Look at other threads,  Most "installed" prices seem to be inflated to harvest the grant for the benefit of the installer.  If you just buy an ASHP and then pay an ordinary plumber and electrician to install it you will get it fitted for under £5K

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Ture, but if you dont use MCS you need express planning consent and cant do it under permitted development.  Madness and shameful.

[OldSpot]

  On 09/01/2024 at 10:18, markc said:

Grants come from the tax payer and just inflate the cost of something.

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Of course though, the rest of our UK tax system is completely even-handed!

[TheMitchells]

  On 09/01/2024 at 10:29, ProDave said:

Look at other threads,  Most "installed" prices seem to be inflated to harvest the grant for the benefit of the installer.  If you just buy an ASHP and then pay an ordinary plumber and electrician to install it you will get it fitted for under £5K

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Is that true?  We are in the process of getting quotes for our Ellesmere bungalow for ASHP, PV, radiators etc.  I shall post details on here when they come in but I'd happily pay someone to fit them as it would probably happen so much quicker.  I guess for me, taking the worry away of making  it all work and getting it done as soon as possible, makes it worth paying more. As long as it isnt too much more!🤔

[JohnMo]

  On 26/07/2024 at 19:25, TheMitchells said:

Is that true?  We are in the process of getting quotes for our Ellesmere bungalow for ASHP, PV, radiators etc.  I shall post details on here when they come in but I'd happily pay someone to fit them as it would probably happen so much quicker.  I guess for me, taking the worry away of making  it all work and getting it done as soon as possible, makes it worth paying more. As long as it isnt too much more!🤔

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PV is a different discussion so maybe best to separate from the ASHP one.

 

Get people to survey and see what they say. Many seem to up size a few radiators, over size the heat pump, set the flow temp too high and install either a low loss header or buffer. Fill the house with thermostats and add as much inefficiency as humanly possible.

 

1. You want a heat pump closely matched to heat loss (plus allowing time to heat DHW)

2. A 3 port diverter valve

A heat pump cylinder (big 3m² or bigger coil)

3. Radiators sized to allow as low as practical flow temp. Size bedroom rads to get to 18 degs or add trv's to these rads only.

4. ASHP controller

 

You really need need nothing more for best efficiency.

[TheMitchells]

  On 26/07/2024 at 20:29, JohnMo said:

PV is a different discussion so maybe best to separate from the ASHP one.

 

Get people to survey and see what they say. Many seem to up size a few radiators, over size the heat pump, set the flow temp too high and install either a low loss header or buffer. Fill the house with thermostats and add as much inefficiency as humanly possible.

 

1. You want a heat pump closely matched to heat loss (plus allowing time to heat DHW)

2. A 3 port diverter valve

A heat pump cylinder (big 3m² or bigger coil)

3. Radiators sized to allow as low as practical flow temp. Size bedroom rads to get to 18 degs or add trv's to these rads only.

4. ASHP controller

 

You really need need nothing more for best efficiency.

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Okay - I'll see what they say and post details.  I rang one firm yesterday and he turned up this morning, on time, seemed pleasant and not at all pushy, said he'll give a quote in a few days.  I was quite impressed. He even seemed to know all about Passivhaus which I took as a good thing. 

Our bungalow is only 68m2 currently and adding the extensions will only add an aditional 30m2. 

[Dave Jones]

Just make EPC D and below houses unmortgage able from 2035.

 

Make any spend on insulation materials and fitting costs vat free and reclaimable against personal tax allowance.

 

Those who can afford these modest costs should be in rented anyway.

 

No excuses then.

 

 

[BotusBuild]

  On 28/07/2024 at 07:58, Dave Jones said:

 

Make any spend on insulation materials and fitting costs vat free and reclaimable against personal tax allowance.

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That's not going to plug the £20bn black hole 😁

[Dave Jones]

  On 28/07/2024 at 08:04, BotusBuild said:

That's not going to plug the £20bn black hole 😁

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there is no black hole ?

 

Like saying there is a 100bn black hole for holidays next year.

[joe90]

  On 28/07/2024 at 07:58, Dave Jones said:

Make any spend on insulation materials and fitting costs vat free

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+1

  On 28/07/2024 at 08:04, BotusBuild said:

That's not going to plug the £20bn black hole 😁

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its not about plugging black holes it’s about encouraging sensible housing upgrades. 

[SteamyTea]

  On 28/07/2024 at 07:58, Dave Jones said:

Make any spend on insulation materials and fitting costs vat free and reclaimable against personal tax allowance

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That will just cause the free marketeers to raise the base price.

Economics is not your strong point. Economics and accountancy are not the same thing.

 

  On 28/07/2024 at 08:04, BotusBuild said:

That's not going to plug the £20bn black hole

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  On 28/07/2024 at 08:31, Dave Jones said:

there is no black hole

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So with government spending at ~£1.2tn and revenue raised at ~£1.1tn, there was not a £121bn 'black hole' last financial year.

What was it then, a BREXIT bonus?

That is about £1750 for every person in the country.