Do we need wired light switches these days?

[The Reverend]

Cats & pigeons get ready!

We are a long way off planning the wiring runs for our new build but a recent conversation with our electrician neighbour got me thinking about 2 way and 3 way switches for bottom/top and exit out of rooms. The details aren't important unless we have to squeeze 9 cables into a switch box but remote controlled (not smart) light switches have been around for many years so is it time to do away with the wired light switch. I'm sure purists would say no and youngsters (under 50) would get with the times but I don't know if it would be allowed under building regs.

What do you think (he says lighting blue touch paper and retiring to safe distance😁)

Thinkbee MINI Wireless Light Switch Kit, Quick Create or Relocate On/Off Switch for In-/Outdoor Lamp up to 1000W, No Wiring/Easy-installing/Portable/Waterproof Switch Remote Control Up to 1300ft,

 

[TonyT]

I would use quinetic 

[ProDave]

It would be a leap of faith too far for me but you might have guessed I am >50 years old.

[JohnMo]

Not sure building control care as long as you have a sign off cert from the electrician.

 

Just seems more stuff to go wrong and scratch your head over in 10 years time when it's all old hat, the company no longer supplies the replacement parts.

 

[Mike]

I'm renting a place during my renovation where one room has Legrand wireless switches (think they use Zigbee) and I'm told that they've been temperamental for a few years. Two days ago they tripped the circuit breaker when I tried to switch them on, and they're now not working at all.

 

I'll be sticking to wired switches.

[Thorfun]

the beauty of self-building is you can do whatever you want (within regulations of course). we're using Loxone to control our lights but will have physical switches in all rooms wired back to a central location. the idea is to not actually ever use them though as the HA should cater for most situations. 🤞

 

but I wouldn't use wireless switches in a new build when it's easy and quick to run cable. in a refurb though I can definitely see the benefit.

[ToughButterCup]

My name's Ian and I'm 69 and eleven twelfths.

 

I'm likely to die before anything new-fangled fails: so I wish I'd chosen to make a few really important lights and sockets to be hard-wired - and make the rest as sexy as I could get.

 

I'm told that @SteamyTea controls many things in the house with his brain. And @pocster.... 

[joe90]

My brother in law has recently refurbished a grand country house and rather than disturb walls and architectural woodwork he installed quinetic stuff which he loves.

[Onoff]

I've had a Quinetic switch fail. 

[Pocster]

This is what you do!

 

You use HA and presence sensors to control lighting . Manual switches are soooooo primitive .

You become technologically agnostic .

i.e you might wire a z wave receiver somewhere - but have done it in such a manner you can rip it out and put zigbee , matter , whatever next .

The best and cheapest way to control lighting especially in a large room is with a ip cctv camera .

Make everything poe - no battery (expletive deleted) abouts to deal with .

Then you can control the heating . Open the front door remotely ( done that by accident once ! ) .

Cripple ‘guests’ WiFi speed so they leave .

So much fun ( caveat ; whilst it’s working ) 

 

You buy cheap from land of the rising sun . Not had anything fail it at 11 quid or so a pop who cares .

Edited May 13, 2023 by pocster

[Pocster]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

Not sure building control care as long as you have a sign off cert from the electrician.

 

Just seems more stuff to go wrong and scratch your head over in 10 years time when it's all old hat, the company no longer supplies the replacement parts.

 

Agree .

I scratch my head over mine sometimes and I installed it .

The key is NOT to be stuck with a technology. Everyone thinks Philips hue is a great choice for lighting . It is bar the cost and when Philips announce “hue 2 “ not backward compatible; Sonos anyone ??? 😞🙄😎

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, ToughButterCup said:

I'm told that @SteamyTea controls many things in the house with his brain

Yes I do. I remember to turn things off when not needed.

[joth]

5 hours ago, The Reverend said:

. The details aren't important unless we have to squeeze 9 cables into a switch box but remote controlled (not smart) light switches have been around for many years so is it time to do away with the wired light switch.

In my book (white male, <50 years old), you have this the wrong way around. Wired switches are always going to be more reliable and long lasting than wireless, however something digital ("smart") will allow a pair of wires to each switch to have infinite uses, and be software reprogrammable if needs change, without need for a wire per light 

Like others here I use Loxone, but other options like Rako exist.

 

All that said Lutron have gone wireless only and it is the trend with other tech (ZigBee Zwave Bluetooth and Matter) so maybe I'm the luddite. I just hate wireless tech when a wired option is possible 

[elite]

Wired for me, if at all possible - the quinetic stuff looks to be decent and is clever, might be useful for stair / landing and outside lights if you forgot a cable, but a step too far for me to go wireless for everything

[Pocster]

I’ve test z wave for over a year - results ( delays ! ) can be spurious . Zigbee to date ( after 5 months ) zero failure or delays I.e SWMBO approval !!! 🥖💩

[Onoff]

Imho at least put some conduit drops / boxes in, even if you go wireless.

[Radian]

9 hours ago, The Reverend said:

I'm sure purists would say no and youngsters (under 50) would get with the times

 

I honestly think you've got that the wrong way round. Anyone over 50 with an ounce of DIY mentality and a heart that still beats was probably cutting their teeth in the decades that saw a massive boom in accessible tech like 8-bit home computers. The available tech then was approachable to non-specialists and hence a softer introduction to the arcane complexities of today's systems. It seems to me that my cohort (in their 60's) are the ones most likely to embrace the latest coolness (and its quirks). On the other hand, anyone starting out fresh today can be forgiven for bouncing off the current complexities and regarding it all as black magic. In our household it's the youngest family member who regularly rolls his eyes at the tech when it falls over or fails us for the want of a simple wall switch.

 

He's right of course... so put in standard wiring. Then fit something nerdy in the standard modular format that will likely be available in years to come as a drop-in replacement (when each new iteration comes around).

[SteamyTea]

18 minutes ago, Radian said:

I honestly think you've got that the wrong way round.

Bill Gates, Steve Jobs (if we was alive), and Tim Berners-Lee are all pensioners.

 

C was started in the early 1970s, Python in the 1980s, Java, mid 1990s.

 

Not exactly new any of it/them.

[Onoff]

Another Quinetic switch failure here. One half of a two gang switch thus meaning the whole switch has to be replaced. I'm thinking that tbh they're like LED lights, a con. 

[FuerteStu]

My current favoured method is twin and earth in and out of each switch plate, with 3 core and earth up to the lights. 

 

Logic being... 

 

- There's a neutral at the switch for smart switches

 

- You can take a permanent live up to lights for smart lights. 

 

- The potential for two switched lives and a neutral to the lights for two banks of lights without additional cables. 

 

- Future fault finding isnt working at height or taking down light fittings. 

 

[Onoff]

On 06/09/2023 at 21:28, Onoff said:

Another Quinetic switch failure here. One half of a two gang switch thus meaning the whole switch has to be replaced. I'm thinking that tbh they're like LED lights, a con. 

 

Now the other gang of the switch has failed. I pity anyone who's done away with hard wiring and just used Quinetic stuff.

[Mattg4321]

Hard wired is always better for everything if possible.  
 

More reliable

No battery changes

Easier/cheaper to fix or replace for someone unfamiliar with the property

More reliable!

 

The amount of times I have to troubleshoot wireless heating controls that plumbers have supplied. Drives me mad. 

 

 

[JohnMo]

My view,

Would or did I bother - no

Is my life richer or poorer with or without smart switches - no, make little or difference either way. Not difficult to flick a switch as I enter or leave a room.

Future proof - no

Could company remove functionality of the switch - yes if a cloud based system 

Short life when installed - possibly, see examples above

Will I be able to get spares easily - who knows, will company or the same part exist in 5 years time?

Will it cost more to install your lights - yes

Will you use all its functions after 5 days - most possibly no

Would your other half or a new owner of the property or an electrician fix easily if you are not around - maybe, most likely not.

Can you or the electrician get spares today - most likely not.

Can you switch your lights on if there is a hardware or software issue - maybe not.

 

Have I got home assistant - yes

Do I have smart relays - yes

Are they the best thing ever - no, great sometimes.

Are smart things a good thing, not really keep it simple - KISS

[Pocster]

As are main space is large open plan physical wall switches would be a pain . You would need banks of them at strategic positions .

If designed correctly as I’ve done ….. no cloud based dependency when local , can replace a faulty device or upgrade it with ease . Could a new owner add manual switches ? - yep .

 

[joth]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

My view,

Would or did I bother - no

[snip]

 

Love the survey question format!  (although note in Q4 you reframe your answers from describing the non-smart system you did install to a hypothetical smart system that you didn't install, which is a tad confusing to follow)

 

Here's my view, all answers relative to the smart system I actually installed:

 

 

Would or did I bother? - yes

Is my life richer or poorer with or without smart switches? - richer, yes, marginally.  mostly because smart switches enable other automations (time & motion based lighting, automatic lighting when out or cooking or playing a movie etc). But we've also appreciated being able to easily repurpose switches (inc double/long taps) to do non-lighting things on occasion.

Future proof? - yes

Could company remove functionality of the smart switch? - no, all locally controlled. Works even if the network router goes offline.

Short life when installed? - possibly, but see examples elsewhere on how my design minimizes the risk

Will I be able to get spares easily? - yes so far. Using a lot of commodity hardware (basic retractive switches and motion sensors) has improved my odds

Will it [did it] cost more to install your lights? - yes. (DIY installing it minimized the biggest hit though, that being paying someone else to design+program it)

Will you [did you] use all its functions after 5 days? - depends what is meant by "all", but yes we definitely use more functionality on a daily basis than is practical with dumb controls. (specifically, motion based lighting means we rarely use the switches)

Would your other half or a new owner of the property or an electrician fix easily if you are not around? - most likely not, but a growing network of professional Loxone installers exits so I'm less worried about this than when I decided to go with it in 2018

Can you or the electrician get spares today? - yes (can order today, about 2 days to be delivered)

Can you switch your lights on if there is a hardware or software issue? - possibly not, a weakness of Loxone is it does introduce more single points of failure.

 

Have I got home assistant? - yes

Do I have smart relays? - yes

Are they the best thing ever? - no, great sometimes.

Are smart things a good thing? - yes. Certainly not necessary or life changing, but they're good for me.  Note I go to great lengths to avoid cloud-dependent and wireless connectivity except where unavoidable (cloud for weather forecasts and push notifications; wifi for retrofitting). I wager anyone doing all wifi and cloud dependent lighting controls will not have a good time.

 

 

 

Edited January 2 by joth