Grenfell Tower fire

[jamiehamy]

Remember in all of this - fire resistant means just that - resistant. Not proof. 

 

Just like Water Resistant and Water Proof are two entirely different things. 

 

It's a very important distinction. 

[Triassic]

Remember also it's probably the smoke that kills and not the fire!

 

If you've ever burnt manmade foaminsulation product you'll have noted the plume of acrid black smoke!

[Jeremy Harris]

11 minutes ago, ADLIan said:

If FR = fire resistant (I don't think it does) and it has an enhanced fire performance compared to their standard PIR why not measure that performance in accordance with the BS and state it in the technical characteristics. As it stands most, if not all, Celotex products look to be 'No Performance Determined' (NPD) for fire performance.

 

If you don't measure it you cannot state product x is better than product y!

 

The PIR video on the first page shows it at Euroclass E. I have also seen PIR at Euroclass C or D. So different grades, manufacturer, composition etc can be differentiated by the BS. The Euroclass rating goes from best at Class A (non combustible) and worst performance is Class F (highly flammable/NPD).

 

I've spent the last half hour or so searching through the data available on RS5000 and FR5000.  Celotex mention that FR stands for Fire Resistant on their web site, but they only hint at the differences there may be between the different products.  All use the same basic PIR chemistry, it seems, but there seem to be differences in the way the different products are laminated.  Celotex aren't very clear, but there are suggestions in their literature that mention the glass fibre layers in the different PIR products, as well as differences in the foil/paper outer coating.  Changes to the number of glass fibre layers, or the positioning of these inside, or perhaps on the outside of, the foam, might change the fire resistance, but would not change the flammability.  I suspect we may discover more about the exact make up of these products during the investigation, as it seems likely that there will be a focus on the flammability of the whole cladding scheme.

Edited June 16, 2017 by JSHarris

[Mr Punter]

I have used their full fill masonry insulation product CF5000 which I think is the same stuff (glass fibre layers & textured alu foil) but 450 x 1200 sheets and profiled edges.  I think anything 5000 is the same basic stuff.

[Triassic]

More details on the decomposition product produced in a fire are described in this report here, https://firesciencereviews.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40038-016-0012-3

Edited June 16, 2017 by Triassic
Typo

[Stones]

And so it begins:

 

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/grenfell-tower-protest-hundreds-gather-at-kensington-and-chelsea-town-hall-demanding-justice-for-a3567086.html

 

Hardly surprising given the rhetoric being pumped up in the media and by certain politicians seeking to apportion blame.  May not speaking to residents hasn't helped (a poor judgement call in my view). I'm really quite concerned about how this is going to develop.

[ToughButterCup]

1 minute ago, Stones said:

And so it begins:

[...]

 May not speaking to residents hasn't helped (a poor judgement call in my view). I'm really quite concerned about how this is going to develop.

 

What a missed opportunity to calm the atmosphere. I sense a certain lack of raw courage, and an instinct to protect  herself first. Add that to a demonstrable inability to discuss, listen and debate openly; the omens are not good. And she owes it to the bereaved and the dead to handle this well.

 

Argggghh! We are being lead by donkeys all over  again. 

[Jeremy Harris]

On 16/06/2017 at 17:24, recoveringacademic said:

 

What a missed opportunity to calm the atmosphere. I sense a certain lack of raw courage, and an instinct to protect  herself first. Add that to a demonstrable inability to discuss, listen and debate openly; the omens are not good. And she owes it to the bereaved and the dead to handle this well.

 

Argggghh! We are being lead by donkeys all over  again. 

 

Remember that we are at a severe threat level, an attack is imminent, and the PM is the person under the greatest threat of attack in the country, greater even than the Queen.  She was advised by the security services that if she appeared in an open public setting they not only would not be able to guarantee her safety, but that she would be putting members of the public at risk, both from any potential attacker and from the defensive action that the her armed protection team may have had to take.

 

She could have undertaken a controlled access visit, within a safe cordon, as the Queen did, but I rather think that would have attracted more criticism from her detractors (and frankly I don't like the woman, so I'm not defending her here at all).

[ProDave]

39 minutes ago, Stones said:

And so it begins:

 

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/grenfell-tower-protest-hundreds-gather-at-kensington-and-chelsea-town-hall-demanding-justice-for-a3567086.html

 

Hardly surprising given the rhetoric being pumped up in the media and by certain politicians seeking to apportion blame.  May not speaking to residents hasn't helped (a poor judgement call in my view). I'm really quite concerned about how this is going to develop.

People on the boating forum are discussing how to prepare your boat to make off into the sunset in the event of the breakdown of society. Not seen that since the cold war days.

[Jeremy Harris]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

People on the boating forum are discussing how to prepare your boat to make off into the sunset in the event of the breakdown of society. Not seen that since the cold war days.

 

That takes me back many years.  When living in West Cornwall in the late 70's, I was lucky enough to have the use of a friends boat, a 28ft sloop that he kept on a mooring at Mylor.  He worked in Dubai, making concrete staircases for Cornish Concrete Products, and was officially an ex-pat, so subject to the 60 day rule, where he couldn't spend more that 60 days in the UK without getting an income tax bill,  He worked 6 weeks on, two weeks off, so had loads of leave that he couldn’t use in the UK.  I used to sail his boat, single handed, over to France, so we could have cruising holidays around the French coast, then he'd fly back to Dubai and I'd sail his boat back to Mylor.

 

In return for this, and checking his boat regularly whilst he was away, I had free use of it.  It was always stocked with loads of tinned food and the fresh water tanks were always full, as my plan was that as soon as I got the early warning (I was lucky, my job meant I'd probably get a ten minute head start over most people) I'd drive to Mylor and sail off, heading out of the Western approaches and then due south, to get across the equator and into the Southern hemisphere as quickly as the weather would allow.  I'd studied the likely fallout pattern, and it seemed clear that the initial fallout and destruction would be largely confined to the Northern hemisphere,  I thought that if I could hold out to the Azores, I might be in with a chance of getting some fresh water and maybe supplies, and could then head towards the cape and out into the Pacific, with the aim of trying to land somewhere in the South Sea islands.  My girlfriend at the time thought I was completely mad, and constantly moaned about the large ready-bag I kept by the front door.  To me it was a very real and present danger, one that was hopelessly trivialised by the Protect and Survive public service announcements and leaflets.

Edited June 16, 2017 by JSHarris

[Stones]

1 hour ago, JSHarris said:

 

Remember that we are at a severe threat level, an attack is imminent, and the PM is the person under the greatest threat of attack in the country, greater even than the Queen.  She was advised by the security services that if she appeared in an open public setting they not only would not be able to guarantee her safety, but that she would be putting members of the public at risk, both from any potential attacker and from the defensive action that the her armed protection team may have had to take.

 

She could have undertaken a controlled access visit, within a safe cordon, as the Queen did, but I rather think that would have attracted more criticism from her detractors (and frankly I don't like the woman, so I'm not defending here here at all).

 

That's a fair point, but doesn't detract from the fact that it looks really bad. Shades of Bush flying over New Orleans after it had been levelled by that hurricane. I suppose in these situations she would be damned whatever she does.

 

On a wider note, I really do wish the politicians and media would turn it down a notch or two, and concentrate on the human tragedy and human spirit in the face of such appalling adversity. 

[PeterW]

7 minutes ago, Stones said:

 

That's a fair point, but doesn't detract from the fact that it looks really bad. Shades of Bush flying over New Orleans after it had been levelled by that hurricane. I suppose in these situations she would be damned whatever she does.

 

On a wider note, I really do wish the politicians and media would turn it down a notch or two, and concentrate on the human tragedy and human spirit in the face of such appalling adversity. 

 

Interesting I had to advise a good friend today the only reason that JC could go on his walkabout without an entourage is that he is "not" the PM....

 

Chatting to an insurance broker on the train this afternoon and he said the industry is watching with interest on this as he said there will be a lot of liability checking as to who "should" have confirmed the specification and contract. He was saying there are currently to his knowledge 4 layers of contractor and subcontractor involved in the mix, and potentially 3 contracting parties - sadly it sounds like the only ones who will win there are the lawyers .... 

[Jeremy Harris]

Just to put the status of Grenfell Tower into perspective for a moment, look at this advert on Right Move:

 

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-56848189.html

 

I thought this was exclusively social housing.  Seems I was very mistaken.

[Onoff]

19 storey place I'm based in has wet risers at 14 bar. Sprinklers go off and this triggers the basement sprinkler pumps. I was there when a fitting came apart on the 14th floor. Somebody decided to adjust it without isolating the system. Punched a hole through a fire door and caused a major flood.

 

What I like is the stair pressurisation system that keeps the stairwells at positive pressure and thus smoke free.

 

A few years back a massive stack of PUR foam went up at the site across the road and enveloped us in thick, acrid black smoke. Someone in our building, thinking we were on fire hit the break glass. Our stair pressurisation units (on the roof) kicked in and filled the stairwells with smoke from the external source! 

 

I was thinking stair pressurisation at Grenfell Tower might have helped but probably would have made it worse!

 

 

[ProDave]

17 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

Just to put the status of Grenfell Tower into perspective for a moment, look at this advert on Right Move:

 

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-56848189.html

 

I thought this was exclusively social housing.  Seems I was very mistaken.

"This property has been removed by the agent. It may be let or temporarily removed from the market"

 

Jesus, £2145 per month. We are renting our 5 bedroom house for less than half that.

 

On the bright side, if that flat was empty that's a few less casualties.

[Declan52]

That's a tasty flat indeed. Someone has Def spent the money there. 

I don't think people really give 2 flying fks if the Queen or prime minster come down to visit I think they are more interested in where they are going to sleep, eat and wash. Listening to them poor people at that council building it was only a matter of time before they snapped. 

The powers that be need to pull out all the stops to sort these people out quickly.

[Jeremy Harris]

1 minute ago, Onoff said:

19 storey place I'm based in has wet risers at 14 bar. Sprinklers go off and this triggers the basement sprinkler pumps. I was there when a fitting came apart on the 14th floor. Somebody decided to adjust it without isolating the system. Punched a hole through a fire door and caused a major flood.

 

What I like is the stair pressurisation system that keeps the stairwells at positive pressure and thus smoke free.

 

A few years back a massive stack of PUR foam went up at the site across the road and enveloped us in thick, acrid black smoke. Someone in our building, thinking we were on fire hit the break glass. Our stair pressurisation units (on the roof) kicked in and filled the stairwells with smoke from the external source! 

 

I was thinking stair pressurisation at Grenfell Tower might have helped but probably would have made it worse!

 

 

 

A part of the refurbishment was the installation of a smoke clearance system for the central well of the building.  From the report so far, it seems this didn't work well. 

 

That surprises me, as on the new building that I was responsible for in my last job, when we tested the smoke extraction system, the suction was so great when the ceiling smoke louvres opened as to pull the bottom of the sliding doors into the ground floor atrium off their bottom runners and into the office, with them sitting at around 20 degrees off vertical due to the air flow coming in through the now open doors.

[Stones]

9 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

That's a tasty flat indeed. Someone has Def spent the money there. 

I don't think people really give 2 flying fks if the Queen or prime minster come down to visit I think they are more interested in where they are going to sleep, eat and wash. Listening to them poor people at that council building it was only a matter of time before they snapped. 

The powers that be need to pull out all the stops to sort these people out quickly.

 

Those affected certainly want help and support from the 'authorities' - difficult to know what is actually being delivered / organised on the ground amongst all the political grandstanding that's going on. 

[Onoff]

21 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

A part of the refurbishment was the installation of a smoke clearance system for the central well of the building.  From the report so far, it seems this didn't work well. 

 

That surprises me, as on the new building that I was responsible for in my last job, when we tested the smoke extraction system, the suction was so great when the ceiling smoke louvres opened as to pull the bottom of the sliding doors into the ground floor atrium off their bottom runners and into the office, with them sitting at around 20 degrees off vertical due to the air flow coming in through the now open doors.

 

Christ! It sounds plausible then that like in the case I experienced any roof fans would have sucked in the upward burning fumes coming off the facade. Makes sense with the number of bodies reported in the stairwell.

[jfb]

One of the most shocking things to emerge from all this for me has been a former housing minister's justification for not following up on numerous recommendations to retrofit sprinkler systems in high-rises - "We believe that it is the responsibility of the fire industry, rather than the Government, to market fire sprinkler systems effectively and to encourage their wider installation." Brandon Lewis

 

I mean that is so evidently a non starter if there is no actual requirement to have them that it defies belief. Another great success story for deregulation and faith in the benign power of market forces.

 

Not to say that a sprinkler system would have worked in this instance but it just seems to be a tragic example of how not to approach issues as important as fire safety.

[ProDave]

You are going to hear a lot more arse covering over the coming weeks and months, and there must be a lot of people now preparing their "it was not my fault" case.

[jamiehamy]

2 hours ago, Declan52 said:

 it was only a matter of time before they snapped. 

It was only a matter of time before the media and certain political groups whipped up enough hysteria on top of an appalling situation for it to escalate. Jon Snow being one example. I won't mention the political faction,  but we all know. 

 

What I'm watching on social media is disgraceful. 

[Jeremy Harris]

47 minutes ago, ProDave said:

You are going to hear a lot more arse covering over the coming weeks and months, and there must be a lot of people now preparing their "it was not my fault" case.

 

 

We've already seen it.  Loads of web pages have been taken down by companies involved in this project already.  I will bet that a lot of staff spent the past two days erasing hard discs and shredding documents as fast as they possibly could.............

[Jeremy Harris]

Just now, jamiehamy said:

It was only a matter of time before the media and certain political groups whipped up enough hysteria on top of an appalling situation for it to escalate. Jon Snow being one example. I won't mention the political faction,  but we all know. 

 

What I'm watching on social media is disgraceful. 

 

 

Sadly we're seeing the organisational skills of the disruptive Militant Tendency/Momentum group actively bringing people out on the streets and turning this into an anti-government protest.  The fact that it was under a Labour government that a great deal of this harm was done seems to have passed them by.

 

 

[RandAbuild]

3 hours ago, JSHarris said:

Just to put the status of Grenfell Tower into perspective for a moment, look at this advert on Right Move:

 

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-56848189.html

 

I thought this was exclusively social housing.  Seems I was very mistaken.

This is likely to be a flat sold under the right to buy, then sold on and made available for letting. Looks like they've spent a fair bit on it, but even so someone was making a killing at £500 a week.