Oh crap, can we switch?

[CalvinHobbes]

So went out tonight and brother in law (a spark) told me we should switch from block build to timber frame. He said we would save a lot and it would be warmer. Services could go in much easier and it's better environmentally. I have been obsessed with accoustics after living in noisy old houses. He assured me modern builds are much better. Anyway we have put in for planning but we haven't done up the construction drawings yet. I posted it below. Will it be a big hoo hah to change? To be fair to our architect he did tell us to do it in timber frame in the first place.

Edited October 2, 2021 by CalvinHobbes

[Ferdinand]

'Ang on a minute, Corporal Jones ?.

 

If you really want to pursue this then you can, but I think your advice is *very* questionable in being so decisive. Particularly from a spark, unless he has specific and deep relevant expertise. TBH it sounds as if he lived in a poor quality TF house, and has been scarred for life - did he have a family member who played the trombone? 

 

Either method can deliver a good quality, acoustically sound property. However you need to optimise for your goals.

 

If you want quiet or silent TF, then you will look at things like cellulose insulation, triple glazing, and your floor joists being closer together, internal walls filled with soundproofing and so in. Something like an MBC Passive Kit will do it.

 

Do a quick top-slice of advice, and your goals.

 

I you may want to withdraw your Planning Application if you are seriously reconsidering, as you may end up with a redesign.

 

It would useful if someone in planning or submitting planning apps ( @Temp?) could explain whether you lose your fees if you withdraw the planning app.

 

On this thread you will have people explaining how both approaches have worked, which will hopefully give you a more rounded consideration.

 

Ferdinand 

 

 

[Ferdinand]

Have a (re-?)read of this thread, where we all talked about it.

 

(Oh I see you did.).

 

 

[CalvinHobbes]

1 hour ago, Ferdinand said:

'Ang on a minute, Corporal Jones ?.

 

If you really want to pursue this then you can, but I think your advice is *very* questionable in being so decisive. Particularly from a spark, unless he has specific and deep relevant expertise. TBH it sounds as if he lived in a poor quality TF house, and has been scarred for life - did he have a family member who played the trombone? 

 

Either method can deliver a good quality, acoustically sound property. However you need to optimise for your goals.

 

If you want quiet or silent TF, then you will look at things like cellulose insulation, triple glazing, and your floor joists being closer together, internal walls filled with soundproofing and so in. Something like an MBC Passive Kit will do it.

 

Do a quick top-slice of advice, and your goals.

 

I you may want to withdraw your Planning Application if you are seriously reconsidering, as you may end up with a redesign.

 

It would useful if someone in planning or submitting planning apps ( @Temp?) could explain whether you lose your fees if you withdraw the planning app.

 

On this thread you will have people explaining how both approaches have worked, which will hopefully give you a more rounded consideration.

 

Ferdinand 

 

 

Cheers, tbh th lifespan of a TF being allegedly 10 - 40 years is a bit grim (though I get they can last longer). I also don't want to submit a redesign, the delays have been horrendous already. Cost wise, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference with wood so expensive. Deffo will re read that thread Ferdinand highlighted. 

[PeterW]

4 hours ago, CalvinHobbes said:

tbh th lifespan of a TF being allegedly 10 - 40 years is a bit grim (though I get they can last longer)

Eh..? Who told you that .??? There are TF that are 400 years old and more. 
 

I would expect 75-100 years min, and that’s conservative. 
 

On the other points, with good planning you can achieve all the perceived benefits with traditional construction methods as you can with TF, the only benefit is normally speed to wind and watertight.  

[Marvin]

6 hours ago, CalvinHobbes said:

Cheers, tbh th lifespan of a TF being allegedly 10 - 40 years is a bit grim (though I get they can last longer). 

???

My timber framed bungalow was built in the early 1970s,  so 50 years old. When we stripped it back to the bare timber frame a couple of years ago, only one piece of timber was replaced due to any problem and that was the the floor joist under the back door threshold that was never protected except for a coat of paint.

 

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

 the only benefit is normally speed to wind and watertight.  

and easier to do later electrical alterations when some numpty forgets to put a socket in the hallway for the vacuum!

[nod]

No offense but I hate the 400 year old argument for TF It’s like comparing a Rolls Royce and a Mondeo 

The ones that have been about for centuries are made of seasoned timber Usually Oak framed Not OSB like today’s TF 

Its true Modern TF have a very short lifespan compared to Brick and block 

and can be insulated within an inch of there lives 

But it’s also easy to get a traditional home up to  a very high standard of airtightness also 

 

I work on both and find TF more convenient Which is truth would be known is the main reason for self builders preferring TF

Our first build is traditional 

We looked again at TF for our second and third Apart from TF not being as solid a build Which is always the case 

The extra cost frightened us off At least a third more 

I do The plastering on TF student Accommodation Electricians and Plumbers are given two days to first fix a pod of 8 We have 3 to board 2 days to plaster All this while the outside skin of brickwork is going up 

Something that couldn’t be done with traditional Yey Trades love TF

 

Some of these are sold to investors 

50 year lifespan 

Edited October 3, 2021 by nod

[joe90]

3 minutes ago, nod said:

The ones that have been about for centuries are made of seasoned timber Usually Oak framed Not OSB

I have always thought this. Despite being very good at woodwork I decided to go block and brick for the solidity factor, there was enough timber work to keep me busy throughout the build. Yes wiring and plumbing is not so easy but I can hang anything I want from very solid feeling walls and still insulated to near passive levels. Just my opinion.

[SteamyTea]

Worth pointing out that there are a number of different 'timber frame' systems, with timber frame being just one of them.

 

A bit more detail here, but not a definitive list:

https://www.bre.co.uk/filelibrary/accreditation/rdsap9_91/BRE_RdSAP_Manual_5_-_Identifying_basic_constructions_v8_0.pdf

 

https://www.trada.co.uk/start-here/timber-frame-construction/

Edited October 3, 2021 by SteamyTea

[ProDave]

As above, both methods can produce a well insulated low energy house.  both can also produce a rubbish house, so whatever you do take care with the details.

 

Timber frame is traditionally recognised as easier to run services, but that assumes if you build in brick and block then you chase all the wires into the walls and wet plaster direct onto the block.  If you want the best of both worlds, there is nothing stopping you doing brick and block, and then creating a battened service void and plasterboarding the walls (NOT dot and dab) which will give you the same service void for easier alterations or additions in the future.

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, Marvin said:

when some numpty forgets to put a socket in the hallway for the vacuum

Get a battery vacuum cleaner.

 

This is not a facetious comment, we are heading that way, not many of us use mains powered tools these days.

[Marvin]

38 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Get a battery vacuum cleaner.

 

This is not a facetious comment, we are heading that way, not many of us use mains powered tools these days.

Small home. Misses not impressed with battery one. I want to live.

[ProDave]

45 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Get a battery vacuum cleaner.

 

This is not a facetious comment, we are heading that way, not many of us use mains powered tools these days.

When we got a battery vacuum I put an extra socket in the utility room where it hangs on the wall.  I could do that because the service void existed with the cable running all the way round the room at socket height ready for additional sockets to be fitted wherever required.  Likewise I did not fit the hall socket straight away, as there were 2 possible places for it, but until the stairs were completed I did not know where the grandfather clock would fit, so had to wait for that and only then did I know where to fit the (now seldom used) hoover socket in the hall.

 

The battery vacuum was bought because SWMBO was finding the mains one too heavy to carry up the stairs.  But strangely my suggestion to fit the charger and socket for the battery one upstairs and for it to be used as the upstairs vacuum and the mains one to still be used downstairs was rejected.  The perfectly good mains one hardly ever gets used any more.

[SteamyTea]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

When we got a battery vacuum I put an extra socket in the utility room where it hangs on the wall. 

One of the universities I lectured at got a load of laptops (was a fair few years back).

They build a lovely wheeled cabinet to store them in, with wiring to recharge them.

First time they got recharged, about 25 of them, in an airtight box, the temperature got so hot that they all got damaged.

[recoveringbuilder]

10 hours ago, CalvinHobbes said:

So went out tonight and brother in law (a spark) told me we should switch from block build to timber frame. He said we would save a lot and it would be warmer. Services could go in much easier and it's better environmentally. I have been obsessed with accoustics after living in noisy old houses. He assured me modern builds are much better. Anyway we have put in for planning but we haven't done up the construction drawings yet. I posted it below. Will it be a big hoo hah to change? To be fair to our architect he did tell us to do it in timber frame in the first place.

We are in our third self build house all of which have been timber frame, the first one built in 1992 and now on its 4th owner with no problems. The acoustics in this one are so much better than the two previous ones which is to be expected as things have moved on a lot in the ensuing years, you can’t hear anyone moving around in other rooms or upstairs and if you leave a room you can’t hear any conversation in the room you’ve left. In Scotland the majority of houses built are timber frame.

[Thedreamer]

When I've worked with modern lightweight blocks they crumble quite easily. How long has this building method been around?

 

To me a traditional building would be dense concrete block and covered in brick or a cement render, most 'traditional' build don't use this approach. 

 

On average it's much easier to get a better result in terms of airtightness and insulation in a timber frame. It's can be done by your average self builder with little experience and when compared to block and brick, unless you are doing the blockwork you are going to need to monitor and have trust in your builder.  

 

In my local area (Hebrides) nobody builds block and block anymore it would be seen as odd to do so. We get some of the wildest weather in the UK and never heard of any house having issues. We were able to arrange for our joiners to stick build a timber frame at a relatively low cost.

 

No doubting that a oak frame is going to be stronger than modern timber but it worthless taking into account that modern wood is treated and incorporates modern fixings.

 

Your roof structure will most likely be timber frame so you need to trust the material.    

 

 

[billt]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

Get a battery vacuum cleaner.

 

This is not a facetious comment, we are heading that way, not many of us use mains powered tools these days.

 

But you still need a socket.

 

We bought a robot cleaner (very good it is too), but it has a charging dock which needs a socket - in the hall as it happens.

[billt]

2 hours ago, nod said:

The ones that have been about for centuries are made of seasoned timber Usually Oak framed Not OSB like today’s TF

 

There's also an awful lot of selection bias; the mass of poorly built TF buidlings from previous centuries have long rotted into the ground.

The ones that are left are ones that were considered worth putting the effort into maintaining.

[SteamyTea]

19 minutes ago, billt said:

There's also an awful lot of selection bias

True for all buildings.

And just about everything else that is made.  There are more Fords in the world than BMWs.

[Bramco]

9 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

I you may want to withdraw your Planning Application if you are seriously reconsidering, as you may end up with a redesign.

 

It would useful if someone in planning or submitting planning apps ( @Temp?) could explain whether you lose your fees if you withdraw the planning app.

 

Not sure why you would want to withdraw the application because of the construction method. Unless an aspect of the design would be prohibitively expensive in your chosen method. As your architect had advised timber frame, they must have considered the design as easily done in TF.

 

I believe that you get your fees back if you withdraw an application, you also get a 'free' resubmit if if fails first time round.  There's always a further option which is to put in a 'non material amendment' once planning is approved - although this can only be on non material aspects, e.g. position and size of windows etc.  I think there's even the option to put in for material changes.

 

 

[joe90]

1 hour ago, Thedreamer said:

unless you are doing the blockwork you are going to need to monitor and have trust in your builder. 

The airtightness of block walls comes from the render/plaster internally, yes attention to detail is required whatever the method.

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, joe90 said:

The airtightness of block walls comes from the render/plaster internally, yes attention to detail is required whatever the method

As most houses 'settle' over time, does the parge, render or plastering crack, leading to the airtightness diminishing?

I have often wondered this but most people are reluctant to spend money to get a second air test done. This may lead to a false premise that any heating system is under performing, when in reality, it is a house leaking more.

[ProDave]

28 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

As most houses 'settle' over time, does the parge, render or plastering crack, leading to the airtightness diminishing?

I have often wondered this but most people are reluctant to spend money to get a second air test done. This may lead to a false premise that any heating system is under performing, when in reality, it is a house leaking more.

I think houses "settling" is a thing of the past.  I have not seen a modern house with cracks anywhere.  We tend to have properly designed well engineered foundations now, not a trench that's not very deep and "that will be okay, it's how we have always done it"

[nod]

2 hours ago, Thedreamer said:

When I've worked with modern lightweight blocks they crumble quite easily. How long has this building method been around?

 

To me a traditional building would be dense concrete block and covered in brick or a cement render, most 'traditional' build don't use this approach. 

 

On average it's much easier to get a better result in terms of airtightness and insulation in a timber frame. It's can be done by your average self builder with little experience and when compared to block and brick, unless you are doing the blockwork you are going to need to monitor and have trust in your builder.  

 

In my local area (Hebrides) nobody builds block and block anymore it would be seen as odd to do so. We get some of the wildest weather in the UK and never heard of any house having issues. We were able to arrange for our joiners to stick build a timber frame at a relatively low cost.

 

No doubting that a oak frame is going to be stronger than modern timber but it worthless taking into account that modern wood is treated and incorporates modern fixings.

 

Your roof structure will most likely be timber frame so you need to trust the material.    

 

 

We used dense concrete block 

Sap guys push towards lightweight 

But I made up the u value with a wider cavity and more insulation 

Heating still hasn’t come on since May

 

I do quite a bit of work for a company with 100milion + plus turnover and they have completely given up on lightweight blocks 

Lots of Brickies would disagree ?