Discharging a water treatment plant into an open water course (ditch / brook)

[Dave and Helen]

Hi,

 

I'm hoping someone can shed some light on an issue we can see looming. We need to install a water treatment plant for a new build project, that's currently waiting on planning. We thought we'd get cracking and so far have all the utilities sorted, with the exception of drainage. The plot has no access to a main sewer, the ground is not suited to a filtration field ( the percolation test was a disaster) so we've been investigating an option to discharge into a brook that runs the along the opposite side of the road to our plot. 

 

The road is a single track that leads to a large house at the end of our road, but it is adopted. Then comes the issue... the brook that we have an eye on, runs along the edge of a number of fields, before crossing some ground owned by Severn Trent before finally discharging into their reservoir. With the exception of a few culverts, the brook is open all the way to the reservoir. According to the Land Registry, the fields I mentioned are owned by three different individuals. 

 

My question is, in order to run the outlet from our proposed, modern all singing and dancing water treatment plant into the brook, I'd clearly need permission from highways to cross the road and the land owner to cross the couple of feet to the brook. However, would I also, legally, need to seek permission from all the land owners who's land the brook crosses on it's way to the reservoir? As the output is less than two cubic metres, I don't believe I need a permit from the Environment Agency, but if I do then we can apply. My concern is whether or not these various land owners have a right to know what I'm doing, the right to object and the right to charge me a ransom tax in order to allow it.

 

We're planning to install a rain water harvesting system, but will need to route excessive surface water away from the plot, so the brook again seems like the ideal option, after all that's what it's there for. 

 

If anyone has come across a similar issue, I'd welcome any feedback. 

 

Kind regards

 

Dave C

[ProDave]

You only need permission of the landowners to lay your pipe (and permission from the EA to discharge to the brook)  you do not need permission of the downstream landowners. As riparian land owners they have to accept whatever comes down the brook and through their land.

[Big Jimbo]

As that question has been answered, i hope it's ok to pose a quick one. If i have a ditch at the front of my property, and the council have advised me that i own half the ditch. They have advised me that i have a riparian responsibility to keep the ditch clear (no problem) would you know if i would have the right to discharge rain water into that ditch ? say i had a 6 cubic mt soakaway crate system to take the rain water from my roof. If the ground wasn't great, and the soakaway was full, could i have an overflow pipe that fed into the ditch ?

[nod]

17 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

As that question has been answered, i hope it's ok to pose a quick one. If i have a ditch at the front of my property, and the council have advised me that i own half the ditch. They have advised me that i have a riparian responsibility to keep the ditch clear (no problem) would you know if i would have the right to discharge rain water into that ditch ? say i had a 6 cubic mt soakaway crate system to take the rain water from my roof. If the ground wasn't great, and the soakaway was full, could i have an overflow pipe that fed into the ditch ?

 Intend to run the treatment plant and rainwater into a dyke at the bottom of our plot Where we are situated Who ever owns the hedge owns the ditch at the other side 

At least four other properties discharge there septic tanks into it 

[joe90]

When our BC officer came he said I would need to dig a soakaway fir rainwater but I told him solid clay would create a permanent pool, he asked what I proposed and I said pipe it into the ditch at the bottom of the plot that would take all the rainwater from the site anyway, perhaps I was lucky having such a laid back BC ?‍♂️

[Big Jimbo]

1 minute ago, nod said:

 Intend to run the treatment plant and rainwater into a dyke at the bottom of our plot Where we are situated Who ever owns the hedge owns the ditch at the other side 

At least four other properties discharge there septic tanks into it 

Thanks Nod. So it would appear that i have the right to discharge an overflow from my soakaway crates to the ditch. The prob is that i am the only person who keeps my ditch clear. The result could be that i cause local flooding due to the ditch not being maintained properly. Not my problem ?

[nod]

8 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

Thanks Nod. So it would appear that i have the right to discharge an overflow from my soakaway crates to the ditch. The prob is that i am the only person who keeps my ditch clear. The result could be that i cause local flooding due to the ditch not being maintained properly. Not my problem ?

You have 

When I checked with BC regarding surface water He said as long as wheats going in there is clean and said the neighbors will have to switch to treatment plants 

My understanding is that it’s upto each property to keep there own ditch clear 

You can’t be held responsible for either side of you 

[nod]

2 minutes ago, nod said:

You have 

When I checked with BC regarding surface water He said as long as wheats going in there is clean and said the neighbors will have to switch to treatment plants 

My understanding is that it’s upto each property to keep there own ditch clear 

You can’t be held responsible for either side of you 

?

[IanR]

2 hours ago, Dave and Helen said:

As the output is less than two cubic metres, I don't believe I need a permit from the Environment Agency, but if I do then we can apply.

 

The limit is 5m³ discharge a day. As long as you meet the general binding rules, you do not require a permit from EA to discharge from a small treatment plant to a watercourse (in England).

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/general-binding-rules-small-sewage-discharge-to-a-surface-water

[Temp]

We have a piped fitch on our side of the road. Highways come and clean it out every few years,

 

I proposed using it for our surface water and the planners consulted the EA. The EA didn't say no. They said there "had been flooding in the past further down the road and wouldn't want to make that worse". So I proposed a rainwater recycling tank with overflow to the ditch and the planners accepted it without going back to the EA. We only use the rainwater tank for garden watering. 

 

Theses days they might ask for proper surge attenuation which ours doesn't provide if its full when the storm hits.

[Sue B]

We have a ditch to the front of our property and we want to discharge our mew sewage treatment plant into that.  I did a pre-application request with the EA and got a really helpful - “it’s all on the website” reply.  We will need a permit as we are within 400m of a SSSI.  Talking to providers of STPs their advice has been do it, then do the permit with the EA and it will just be accepted. He couldn’t see an issue with discharge into the ditch.  

[ToughButterCup]

9 hours ago, IanR said:

The limit is 5m³ discharge a day. As long as you meet the general binding rules, you do not require a permit from EA to discharge from a small treatment plant to a watercourse (in England).

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/general-binding-rules-small-sewage-discharge-to-a-surface-water

 

and

2 hours ago, Sue B said:

...We will need a permit as we are within 400m of a SSSI.  ...

 

@Sue B, where is that requirement  to be found, please? I've mis-read the GBRs perhaps?

 

The reason I ask is that you'd have to have a huge house and as many bedroom as Blenheim Palace  to get to 5 cubic meters a day..... So whats the scientific logic behind the requirement? 

Edited June 22, 2021 by ToughButterCup

[IanR]

18 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

where is that requirement  to be found, please? I've mis-read the GBRs perhaps?

 

. So whats the scientific logic behind the requirement? 

 

 

 

[jamieled]

31 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

. So whats the scientific logic behind the requirement? 

There possibly isn't a lot of logic. Much like abstractions  they set a fairly arbitrary (albeit with some basis) threshold in order to manage their workload.

[LSB]

13 hours ago, Dave and Helen said:

Hi,

 

I'm hoping someone can shed some light on an issue we can see looming. We need to install a water treatment plant for a new build project, that's currently waiting on planning. We thought we'd get cracking and so far have all the utilities sorted, with the exception of drainage. The plot has no access to a main sewer, the ground is not suited to a filtration field ( the percolation test was a disaster) so we've been investigating an option to discharge into a brook that runs the along the opposite side of the road to our plot. 

 

The road is a single track that leads to a large house at the end of our road, but it is adopted. Then comes the issue... the brook that we have an eye on, runs along the edge of a number of fields, before crossing some ground owned by Severn Trent before finally discharging into their reservoir. With the exception of a few culverts, the brook is open all the way to the reservoir. According to the Land Registry, the fields I mentioned are owned by three different individuals. 

 

My question is, in order to run the outlet from our proposed, modern all singing and dancing water treatment plant into the brook, I'd clearly need permission from highways to cross the road and the land owner to cross the couple of feet to the brook. However, would I also, legally, need to seek permission from all the land owners who's land the brook crosses on it's way to the reservoir? As the output is less than two cubic metres, I don't believe I need a permit from the Environment Agency, but if I do then we can apply. My concern is whether or not these various land owners have a right to know what I'm doing, the right to object and the right to charge me a ransom tax in order to allow it.

 

We're planning to install a rain water harvesting system, but will need to route excessive surface water away from the plot, so the brook again seems like the ideal option, after all that's what it's there for. 

 

If anyone has come across a similar issue, I'd welcome any feedback. 

 

Kind regards

 

Dave C

I didn't think that output from a waste plant was allowed to go into a water course that ultimately goes into the public water supply.

[jamieled]

14 minutes ago, LSB said:

I didn't think that output from a waste plant was allowed to go into a water course that ultimately goes into the public water supply

Half of england drinks recycled/treated sewage (indirectly).

[IanR]

24 minutes ago, LSB said:

I didn't think that output from a waste plant was allowed to go into a water course that ultimately goes into the public water supply.

 

Septic tanks are not allowed to discharge to a water course, they must now have a suitably sized leach field, but small treatment plants can, if you work within the general binding rules.

Edited June 22, 2021 by IanR

[Bramco]

10 hours ago, Temp said:

I proposed using it for our surface water and the planners consulted the EA. The EA didn't say no. They said there "had been flooding in the past further down the road and wouldn't want to make that worse". So I proposed a rainwater recycling tank with overflow to the ditch and the planners accepted it without going back to the EA. We only use the rainwater tank for garden watering. 

 

We were told that we had to use soakaways for surface water even though there is a dyke in front of the property and I seem to recollect that came from the Trent Valley Internal Drainage Board even though they don't manage our dyke, they still have a say into what goes into dykes as they eventually meet up with one of their managed watercourses.

 

Have you spoken to your local Drainage Board because they might have more skin in the game than the EA?

 

Simon

[ToughButterCup]

2 hours ago, IanR said:

 

 

 

?

Apologies: hard-of-thinking on Tuesdays

[Roundtuit]

11 hours ago, Bramco said:

 

We were told that we had to use soakaways for surface water even though there is a dyke in front of the property and I seem to recollect that came from the Trent Valley Internal Drainage Board

Interesting.  Our local drainage board allowed rainwater discharge into the dyke down the side of our plot, on the basis that the volume going into the dyke would overall be the same whether there was a house there or not.  The treatment plant discharge also goes into it about 20m further upstream.

[Bramco]

10 hours ago, Roundtuit said:

Our local drainage board allowed rainwater discharge into the dyke down the side of our plot, on the basis that the volume going into the dyke would overall be the same whether there was a house there or not.

 

@Roundtuit   So did you have to show that soakaways wouldn't work based on permeability tests?  Or did you simply point out that the site drained into the watercourse anyway.

 

I'm assuming that as you are in Cambridgeshire that the site was pretty flat?

 

It would save us a lot of cash if we didn't have to put soakaways in.

 

Simon

[Russell griffiths]

I do wonder if all this is a box ticking thing, as in if you present the council with a big pile of paper saying everything is cool then do they bother to question it. 

 

My treatment plant will discharge into a pond  I have constructed, which sits right slap bang in the middle of my site, which the whole site is a SSSI. 

So work that out. 

I did pay a big chunk of cash to a company that design water infrastructure to do a flood risk assessment and rainwater run off calculations. 

 

We also have 3 other septic tanks between myself and my neighbour all discharging onto land within a SSSI 

[Roundtuit]

No, soakaways didn't come up; someone from the drainage board came out to site to discuss my proposals and ok'd it in principle (subject to the rainwater and treatment plant discharging separately - I think to meet any discharge testing requirements). I followed up by submitting a sketched plan of what we'd agreed, and that was it.

 

Yes the site is level, and I should point out that we actually discharge into a piped section of the dyke - maybe soakaways are to prevent bank erosion?

 

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, Russell griffiths said:

...  My treatment plant will discharge into a pond  I have constructed, which sits right slap bang in the middle of my site, which the whole site is a SSSI.  So work that out. ...

 

Which is exactly why I asked what the scientific rationale is for the requirements in relation to SSIs. None, it would seem. Maybe the requirement is about volume of discharge....?

A simple explanatory sentence in the guidance would clarify the matter. (Hmmm, I wonder....)

Edited June 23, 2021 by ToughButterCup

[Dave and Helen]

On 21/06/2021 at 21:22, ProDave said:

You only need permission of the landowners to lay your pipe (and permission from the EA to discharge to the brook)  you do not need permission of the downstream landowners. As riparian land owners they have to accept whatever comes down the brook and through their land.

Thanks ProDave, I didn't think my question would draw so many related questions. 

I've been reading about Riparian ownership (all new to me) which seems to address a lot of my concerns. That said, there is one section under "Do I have any rights as a riparian landowner", that states: To receive a flow of water in its natural state, without undue interference in its quantity or quality. 

 

I guess this is down to interpretation, but if the intent is discharge the output from a modern water treatment plant, no more than 2 cubic metre a day and to also direct water run off from the plot into the brook, wouldn't this be in breach of their rights as regards quantity? I know there are a couple of culverts downstream before the outlet reaches the reservoir, again if we're increasing the potential quantity, should I be concerned that these culverts maybe to narrow?  

 

I'm encouraged by your response, saying that we only need permission from the land owner who's land we'll need to cross, but is this written anywhere that I can refer to as I have a feeling there may be some objection? 

 

Thanks again

 

Dave C