When will it end?

[SimonD]

15 hours ago, Jilly said:

a lot of us are overoptimistic the first time. I'll be a lot more prepared next time,

 

It's a known predicament of human nature sadly. Lao Tzu said over 2000 years ago that you should always prepare for a journey to be much harder than you imagine. I wonder if he'd built his own house.

 

2 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

the point of no return...increased commitment..Then one day you realise you're trapped.  

 

Isn't that just the case. You get to the point where you just have to carry on.

 

However, on the bright side, it is a major achievement to build your own home, just like it's a major achievement to start a successful business, be a successful athlete, or achieve anything of note really. All of those things take their toll and demand some hardship, it's just the flavour of the hardship. I myself am far less stressed about the building game and running out of money, being delayed and seeing my boys growing up in a caravan than I used to be when working at a senior level in a large company, having to deal with all the associated BS  and living subject to the whims of the firm, so to speak. Definitely no regrets here for me.

[ToughButterCup]

On 26/02/2022 at 15:27, SimonD said:

...

My builder is rubbish too as he's sat drinking tea, writing rubbish on here right now when he should be doing something useful in solitude on the site

...

 

@pocster working for you then?

[ProDave]

For me, I would not start another new build until I had ALL the money sat in the bank, including contingency.  The trials and tribulations of the housing market were what almost derailed or build.  Do NOT assume if you have an asset that you WILL be able to sell it, when you want to, for what it is worth.

[Ralph]

I've just handed in the notice on our flat, years after we thought we would be out of it.

 

Weirdly the last 3 months have been the best despite everything. The bulider went bust so we've been finishing things off ourselves and putting right a lot of his crap. We are going to end up with a better house than we would have had he still be on the job. I should have binned him a long time ago.

[SimonD]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

For me, I would not start another new build until I had ALL the money sat in the bank, including contingency.  The trials and tribulations of the housing market were what almost derailed or build.  Do NOT assume if you have an asset that you WILL be able to sell it, when you want to, for what it is worth.

 

I'd agree with that approach and followed it. We had full budget plus a little over 20% contingency. What we didn't know beforehand was how badly advised we'd been by the professionals we'd engaged to help with the project. As a consequence our project ended up almost double in size. Then we were hit by various global crises that saw our budget shrink even more and so everything was far more expensive than originally priced. And believe me, I'd nailed down the prices before even commencing with the work.

 

This is what has led me to believe that you have to beware professionals in the construction industry, as I've generally found the service we've had to be particularly below par. I don't seem to be the only one that's had this problem either.

[ToughButterCup]

6 minutes ago, SimonD said:

... I don't seem to be the only one that's had this problem either.

 

This thread is good company: and maybe one we should encourage new self-builders to read before starting  their  project(s).

[saveasteading]

4 hours ago, SimonD said:

beware professionals in the construction industry,

And anywhere.  Too many are only knowledgeable in a very small sphere...eg structure but not cost, aesthetics but not structure, 

New starts, read up on here so that you know a bit about everything.

[PeterW]

One of the issues with self building and professionals is that the cost of decent advice (and what should be taken) is above what people want to pay and it is usually a nice to have rather than seen as something essential. Primarily, your fixed engagement costs are higher on single property builds and sometimes you don’t get the basics (topo, CAD etc) so there are extra set up costs in dealing with bespoke designs.

 

This drives clients to reduce the amount of time spent on actual design decisions or those sorts of things, and consequently you get less for your money and ultimately gaps are found.
 

A good example of this is during any M&E design is the locations for sockets. Sockets however need ring mains or radial supplies; these need to be routed through structures and back to distribution boards. Modern structures may have steels in place, and subsequently these need to be drilled for cables. Drilled steels needs to be engineered for strength, and therefore the structural engineer needs to be aware so the fabricators create the correct openings. 
 

So when the client wanders on site and says to the electrician “but we want 3 more double sockets in that room” they are surprised at the additional cost of 3 sockets. When we used to advise clients on this, it could be that there is an additional zero added at design time to focus the mind - it’s £50 per additional socket when it’s being done on paper, and £500 when it’s being done on the ground for example ..! It is surprising the amount of people who don’t think about layouts and basically how they will use the house to define where things need to go. And professionals can’t do this for them as they won’t live there, so the fact you’ve got 3 table lamps you want in a room, or you will have a mirror next to the en-suite door to use a hair dryer is not communicated. 
 

Building professionals aren’t telepathic, and ultimately time is money so it is up to you where you spend any contingency or design costs as it will pay dividends when it comes to the build process but you need to start with the basics of your requirements as a client. 

[Ronan 1]

@PeterW couldn't agree more,  of course there are some rogues out there BUT I think an awful lot of people engaging these trades don't fully understand the various remits and can't effectively self manage a build as they don't know what they don't know and when it ends up in the shitter it's very easy to blame the tradesman that's looking for the extra money / time.

I have come across more and more subbies that simply won't price private houses now as its just not worth the hassle regardless of the money in it 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Ronan 1

[Jilly]

8 minutes ago, Ronan 1 said:

@PeterW couldn't agree more,  of course there are some rogues out there BUT I think an awful lot of people engaging these trades don't fully understand the various remits and can't effectively self manage a build as they don't know what they don't know and when it ends up in the shitter it's very easy to blame the tradesman that's looking for the extra money / time.

I have come across more and more subbies that simply won't price private houses now as its just not worth the hassle regardless of the money in it 

Yup, I've had to pay everyone on a day rate which is scary, but I trust the people involved (more or less!!). 

[patp]

We feel very fortunate that we have lived adjacent to our site for forty years. We, therefore, knew people who knew people and we could, mostly, book trades by reputation. For instance our amazing brickie was working opposite us on a large self build for a well respected civil engineer. The brickie is a one man band, close to retirement, who picks and chooses his work. He actually approached us because he said he would only work on bungalows now. Unfortunately he had an allegiance to the civil engineer neighbour so we did lose him every now and then but we never regretted handing him the plans

Same with many of the other trades they all came recommended by the trade on site at the time. We, of course, always went out to quotes but if there was not much in it opted for the recommendation from our trusted on site tradesman. The Civil Engineer over the road installed the sewer system which needed a pumping station. But we trusted that he was right and that he would do a good job.

The only one that went wrong was - yes you guessed it - the windows! They were a local carpentry company that were passionate about their work but still managed to muck up all the measurements! They provided us with formers, to the brickies delight, but the windows that followed were different to the formers! Nightmare  It all turned out all right in the end and they did not request our final instalment

 

Would we do it again? Never! The worst bit - living in a caravan on site. We stayed on a local campsite for a while and that was much better. You felt that you had left "work" and "come home". That would apply, I think, if you sited your caravan on a friend's driveway perhaps too? It is the - never leaving the site - that takes its toll. The trouble was that the campsite charged £20 per night and the muddy site was free......

 

Another tip for newbies reading this. When the plans get changed as they surely will - throw away the old ones!!!

[Jilly]

17 minutes ago, patp said:

Another tip for newbies reading this. When the plans get changed as they surely will - throw away the old ones!!!

Ha! Top tip!

 

My architect's technician didn't  do this and submitted the wrong plans...

[Bitpipe]

1 hour ago, patp said:

 

Would we do it again? Never! The worst bit - living in a caravan on site. We stayed on a local campsite for a while and that was much better. You felt that you had left "work" and "come home". That would apply, I think, if you sited your caravan on a friend's driveway perhaps too? It is the - never leaving the site - that takes its toll. The trouble was that the campsite charged £20 per night and the muddy site was free......

 

Interesting, we had the opposite experience  - I loved being on site every day (working day job from the caravan) as could keep an eye on things and trades were able to get hold of me (as PM) for any questions. 

 

The only mess ups happened during the odd times I was away from site for a few days or more.

 

Easy to buzz round first thing and when they had all gone to tidy up etc.

[SteamyTea]

4 hours ago, PeterW said:

So when the client wanders on site and says to the electrician “but we want 3 more double sockets in that room” they are surprised at the additional cost of 3 sockets. When we used to advise clients on this, it could be that there is an additional zero added at design time to focus the mind - it’s £50 per additional socket when it’s being done on paper, and £500 when it’s being done on the ground for example

Is this partly because the domestic electrical industry has not kept up with changing demands/trends.

What people where happy with 30 years ago, i.e. two sockets in a bedroom, maybe 4 in a living room, is now so out of date where even a TV needs 3 sockets, and aerial and an internet connection.

Surely it is time that conduit was run around the place so new cables can be more easily run, no more pulling up floorboards, let alone chipboard boards.

Plumbing seems to be going in the right direction with UFH and manifolds.

Wiring seems stuck in the 1950s, people are still fitting 5 A lighting circuits FFS.

[DragsterDriver]

3 hours ago, patp said:

We feel very fortunate that we have lived adjacent to our site for forty years. We, therefore, knew people who knew people and we could, mostly, book trades by reputation. For instance our amazing brickie was working opposite us on a large self build for a well respected civil engineer. The brickie is a one man band, close to retirement, who picks and chooses his work. He actually approached us because he said he would only work on bungalows now. Unfortunately he had an allegiance to the civil engineer neighbour so we did lose him every now and then but we never regretted handing him the plans

Same with many of the other trades they all came recommended by the trade on site at the time. We, of course, always went out to quotes but if there was not much in it opted for the recommendation from our trusted on site tradesman. The Civil Engineer over the road installed the sewer system which needed a pumping station. But we trusted that he was right and that he would do a good job.

The only one that went wrong was - yes you guessed it - the windows! They were a local carpentry company that were passionate about their work but still managed to muck up all the measurements! They provided us with formers, to the brickies delight, but the windows that followed were different to the formers! Nightmare  It all turned out all right in the end and they did not request our final instalment

 

Would we do it again? Never! The worst bit - living in a caravan on site. We stayed on a local campsite for a while and that was much better. You felt that you had left "work" and "come home". That would apply, I think, if you sited your caravan on a friend's driveway perhaps too? It is the - never leaving the site - that takes its toll. The trouble was that the campsite charged £20 per night and the muddy site was free......

 

Another tip for newbies reading this. When the plans get changed as they surely will - throw away the old ones!!!

caravan hell!

[ProDave]

5 hours ago, PeterW said:

 

A good example of this is during any M&E design is the locations for sockets. Sockets however need ring mains or radial supplies; these need to be routed through structures and back to distribution boards. Modern structures may have steels in place, and subsequently these need to be drilled for cables. Drilled steels needs to be engineered for strength, and therefore the structural engineer needs to be aware so the fabricators create the correct openings. 
 

So when the client wanders on site and says to the electrician “but we want 3 more double sockets in that room” they are surprised at the additional cost of 3 sockets. When we used to advise clients on this, it could be that there is an additional zero added at design time to focus the mind - it’s £50 per additional socket when it’s being done on paper, and £500 when it’s being done on the ground for example ..! It is surprising the amount of people who don’t think about layouts and basically how they will use the house to define where things need to go. And professionals can’t do this for them as they won’t live there, so the fact you’ve got 3 table lamps you want in a room, or you will have a mirror next to the en-suite door to use a hair dryer is not communicated. 

Interesting sub topic.

 

The only time steels have been an issue is on one build where a major steel was drilled backwards and nobody noticed until me and the plumber arrived on the job.  Half the drilled holes were in the wrong place and useless.  We had to make do with half the holes we had been expecting which made for some very full holes and longer cable and pipe runs.  Of course if there was a main contractor we could have thrown the problem back to him to correct the drillings, but there was not, self managed by the owner, so the owner agreed to the longer runs and very full drillings.

 

On the subject of where to put switches and sockets.  I normally spend the first morning going round with the owner marking the socket and switch positions on the walls and agreeing them with them. I don't get fixated with only fitting what the drawing shows because almost always it is wrong.

[Adsibob]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

Wiring seems stuck in the 1950s, people are still fitting 5 A lighting circuits FFS.

What’s wrong with 5A lamp sockets? We have about 5 of them and I’m excited to use them when this nightmare eventually ends.

[SimonD]

7 hours ago, PeterW said:

One of the issues with self building and professionals is that the cost of decent advice (and what should be taken) is above what people want to pay and it is usually a nice to have rather than seen as something essential. Primarily, your fixed engagement costs are higher on single property builds and sometimes you don’t get the basics (topo, CAD etc) so there are extra set up costs in dealing with bespoke designs.

 

This drives clients to reduce the amount of time spent on actual design decisions or those sorts of things, and consequently you get less for your money and ultimately gaps are found.

 

I've certainly seen a lot of examples, including here on BH, where the professional input is undervalued and people try skimp on it. I'd agree this is counterproductive and often has a detrimental effect on the project as a whole, especially when you aren't experienced in house construction.

 

However, there are some of us that are aware of the benefits of this upfront investment and are willing to pay for it. One thing I did before even getting any architect involved was to pay for a topographical survey so it was already on hand when looking for an architect. Something I used to great effect in understanding costs associated with some designs as I was able to get quotes from groundworks companies based on the survey (we're on a significantly sloped site).

 

The problem as I see it is that despite having the will to pay for these services and put the time into the design decisions, there remains what I see as a gap in the satisfactory provision of those services in construction. For example, we tendered and met with about half a dozen architects, all of whom visited our site. I paid some of them a fee to make the initial visit to talk about our plans. When receiving their proposals, not a single one of them met our brief. Both my wife and I wondered whether we had dreamed up the meetings we'd had because they were so far off. In desparation we then engaged the services of an architectural technologist based on a recommendation, but even then the design proposals that came back were underwhelming at best, totally impractical at worst, so we paid him for his time and went in search for someone else.

 

I won't even begin to describe the atrocious service we received from the first structural engineer we appointed (introduced by the architect). He even had the gall to bill us for an incomplete scheme and when I went back with a list of what was missing, he still didn't respond and his company chased the invoice. Needless to say, I got rid of him and eventually found someone else, who did turn out to be good.

 

7 hours ago, PeterW said:

Building professionals aren’t telepathic, and ultimately time is money so it is up to you where you spend any contingency or design costs as it will pay dividends when it comes to the build process but you need to start with the basics of your requirements as a client. 

 

I disagree with this. If you're a professional dealing with a layperson as a client, it is up to you to ask the questions to elicit and grasp the requirements from the client. It is not for you to expect the client deliver those requirement as the client cannot be expected to know how to articulate them adequately or know the extent required (or even the potential ramifications). If an architect, for example, after 7 years of training is still unable to do this, then I'd have to wonder what is missing from their education as it is clearly essential to a good design process. It is also up to those professionals involved to manage effective communication, with their client, and also everyone else involved in the project so that the necessary questions are resolved and accounted for ahead of time.

 

The architect we chose in the end was excellent at eliciting our design requirements and at the same time was able to enhance those with his experience. It took me a while to appreciate this side of his service. However, his biggest and most unacceptable failing was that he wasn't honest about where his technical limitations lay and instead proceeded to advise us incorrectly in this regard. However, there were several other aligned professionals who also provided poor technical advice. It's this incorrect advice that has cost us significant money, not changing our minds about sockets, or other such design elements.

 

My own experience could simply be dismissed as poor decision making or bad luck on my part but there are enough stories on here and from people I've met to suggest I'm not such an anomoly.

Edited February 28, 2022 by SimonD

[Adsibob]

Don't mean to sound defensive, but just in case anyone thought my misfortune and crazy long timescale was due to not spending money on professional advice, i totted up what i have spend on professionals:
architectural fees: £26k

planning consultant £5k

SE  £4.7k

RICS Surveyor  £1.2K

 

But I agree that none of these professionals did a good job in advising me of the length of project i was undertaking.

 

[SteamyTea]

8 hours ago, Adsibob said:

What’s wrong with 5A lamp sockets?

It is now unnecessary.  You can get wireless switching, which gives greater flexibility as you can use any socket or existing lighting circuit.  Why waste time, and cash, on all the extra wiring.  I have never bothered to work it out, but I would not be surprised if the length of wiring for the light circuit in a typical house was greater than the power outlets circuits.

 

To give you an idea of what I mean, the person who designed my house assumed that the front door would be used as the primary entrance.  The car parking is at the rear, so we all use the rear door.  The light switch is on the opposite wall from the door.  Now to put this right with traditional wiring would be a major job, pulling up chipboard flooring, drilling though joists, wall chasing.  Much easier to just get a wireless switch and remember to change the battery after 300,000 uses.

As it is, I know where the switch is and walk the 3 paces to it.

 

When I press the remote on my car, the interior light comes on.  I have had the facility for over 30 years, and I buy cheap cars, but not in any house I have owned (though this is the newest house I have ever had).

Edited March 1, 2022 by SteamyTea

[joe90]

Well I paid no professional fees (apart from getting my pencil plans put on CAD, and he even got that wrong several times ?‍♂️), I am fortunate that I can “visualise” the end product and I think most people struggle with this, there is nothing I wish had been different (including my 5 amp sockets for lamps). As said above even a professional won’t be living in the house and people all live differently.

[Pocster]

22 hours ago, PeterW said:

One of the issues with self building and professionals

Oh . I thought they were one and the same ?

[ToughButterCup]

11 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

It is now unnecessary.  You can get wireless switching, which gives ...

 

You are right.

But, at the time the house was designed, the idea that Debbie could come home to an empty house, and switch a light on (and off) in every room from one  5 Amp master switch by the main door put a smile on her face. And made her feel more secure about coming home when no other family member is home.

 

That made whatever minor inconvenience a 5 Amp circuit causes in a new build simply irrelevant. The financial saving is irrelevant too.

[jack]

On 27/02/2022 at 13:29, ProDave said:

Most of us say "never again" and then after a couple of years, the itch comes back.

 

We feel very lucky to have what we have, but there are just so many things I'd do differently if I had my time again. 

 

The phrase "next house" is the standing joke each time something at the current house annoys us...

[DragsterDriver]

On 28/02/2022 at 23:35, Adsibob said:

Don't mean to sound defensive, but just in case anyone thought my misfortune and crazy long timescale was due to not spending money on professional advice, i totted up what i have spend on professionals:
architectural fees: £26k

planning consultant £5k

SE  £4.7k

RICS Surveyor  £1.2K

 

But I agree that none of these professionals did a good job in advising me of the length of project i was undertaking.

 

thats an eye watering amount of money, nobody can accuse you of skimping!

 

think I did £800 architect and £300 structural engineer.