Highland Girl

[Highland girl]

57 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

Could I just ask: how do you know that 

 

I ask because ( and I had forgotten ) @PeterW's point 

 

 

How do you know for sure that your house is in the wrong position; and on what (or with what) authority  was that statement made to you?

 

In other words, what's the evidence base for the claim that your house is in the wrong place?

Solicitor has said it is in the wrong place and the drawings have measurements on them that bear this out.

[Highland girl]

51 minutes ago, pdf27 said:

Just to confirm - is the image above the one showing what you own, i.e. the one with the land registry? The maps are all inconsistent with each other.

IF this is the correct map, then we have a good datum on the ground for where your land starts - the corner of the boundary with the other house marked (2). Note that the green area marked on the croft map is inconsistent with this because the corner does not match the boundary shown - the discrepancy is something like 10m scaling off the 51.3m length marked.

 

Yes this is the drawing the architect done and he has marked 51.3m and the green drawing is what is on the land registry the figure of 51.3m does not come down as far as archtect indicated.

[pdf27]

18 minutes ago, Highland girl said:

Yes this is the drawing the architect done and he has marked 51.3m and the green drawing is what is on the land registry the figure of 51.3m does not come down as far as archtect indicated.

What is the distance on the ground along that boundary between the two features? What does the deed say - does it have a measured map in it, for example saying that your land boundary is 51.3m long, on a bearing of 135° true from datum A, or does it relate to features on the ground.

 

The green drawing is from the croft registry, taken from land registry data, correct? For something like this I wouldn't rely on it being absolutely accurate. They use OS data, and their published root mean square error in rural zones is <±2.8m (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/land-registry-plans-the-basis-of-land-registry-applications/land-registry-plans-the-basis-of-land-registry-plans-practice-guide-40-supplement-1 : 99% confidence interval is <±5.8m). Given that the discrepancy between the map and your boundary is only 4m, the map by itself is insufficient to prove with certainty where your land ends - on the north side you've got it running along what is marked up as a fence/wall or something like that which gives you a good datum. However the south boundary is hanging in the air so you could potentially be anywhere from 2m inside the line to 10m over it based on the map alone.

Edited February 3, 2021 by pdf27

[Ferdinand]

That would be the easiest solution.

 

"Architect was wrong; it *is* mine".

 

BOOM.

[Stones]

3 maps/plans here?

 

What is owned,

What has been decrofted

What has been shown in the planning application

 

For those who don't live in crofting areas, this is land subject to various rules and restrictions. Land can be 'decrofted' most commonly for house plots. These tend to restricted in size. Access to such sites can still be taken over crofting land.

 

 

[Highland girl]

It is the green map that has been decorated they went on the written measurements that the architect wrote on the red map his drawing and measurement at back differ.The title deed is the same as green map.

[ToughButterCup]

17 hours ago, Highland girl said:

Solicitor has said it is in the wrong place and the drawings have measurements on them that bear this out.

 

I would treat that as mere assertion on the part of the solicitor. And therefore to be treated with respectful skepticism. There is enough at stake here to proceed with great caution in terms of fundamental assumptions.

Can I suggest you ask the solicitor the same question I asked. 

 

On what basis do you make the claim that the house in in the wrong place? In considering his reply to that question @pdf27 's point should be considered in detail

 

17 hours ago, pdf27 said:

What is the distance on the ground along that boundary between the two features? What does the deed say - does it have a measured map in it, for example saying that your land boundary is 51.3m long, on a bearing of 135° true from datum A, or does it relate to features on the ground.

 

The green drawing is from the croft registry, taken from land registry data, correct? For something like this I wouldn't rely on it being absolutely accurate. They use OS data, and their published root mean square error in rural zones is <±2.8m (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/land-registry-plans-the-basis-of-land-registry-applications/land-registry-plans-the-basis-of-land-registry-plans-practice-guide-40-supplement-1 : 99% confidence interval is <±5.8m). Given that the discrepancy between the map and your boundary is only 4m, the map by itself is insufficient to prove with certainty where your land ends - on the north side you've got it running along what is marked up as a fence/wall or something like that which gives you a good datum. However the south boundary is hanging in the air so you could potentially be anywhere from 2m inside the line to 10m over it based on the map alone.

 

In this thread as in all others, please bear in mind that we are not experts. We are merely intrerested , and reasonably well informed contributors. And all of us are well-disposed : of that you can be sure.

 

After having done Due Diligence , you should take respected, expert advice.

 

[Temp]

My guess is he intended to gift the land on the red map and this somehow got messed up when it was measured and sent to the land registry.

 

The reason I say this is because it shows the right hand boundary running between between two "features" which look like field boundaries or boundaries with other plots of land. Whatever they are they appear on both red and green maps.

 

I think it very unlikely that he deliberately intended your plot to start "51.3m from the top right corner" unless there is another feature at that point that is not shown on any maps. Why not 51.3m from the bottom right corner? It is much more likely he intended it to run between these two points and the plot was measured incorrectly.

 

If you measure between these two points now is actually 61.3m rather than 51.3m ?

 

This also explains why he hasn't noticed a problem. Your house is still above where he thinks the boundary is even if it is in slightly the wrong place.

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Temp

[ToughButterCup]

20 minutes ago, Temp said:

...

I think it very unlikely that he deliberately intended your plot to start "51.3m from the top right corner" unless there is another feature at that point that is not shown on any maps.

...

 

@Temp's post got me thinking.

 

Are the two lines with a blue elipse round them fence lines? Or clearly visible features on the ground? Because if they are, then that would explain the 51.3meter measure.

[Highland girl]

Yes they are fence lines.

[ProDave]

I see different maps with different boundaries, but I am confused.

 

Which is the map shown on your title deeds?  And does the map on your title deeds have a clearly identifiable feature like the 2 fences circled in the post above?

 

And how does the position of the actual building compare to those identifiable features?

 

At the moment I am seeing the house might extend outside the decrofted area, that is a different issue, but that alone does not mean it extends outside the land gifted to you.

[AliMcLeod]

Highland Girl, it would help (me at least) if you could summarise (with site maps if possible)

 

What is on your approved planning application - site map, approved building position (and if possible, overlay with actual building position)? 

What is on your title title deeds?

What site was marked out by you and your architect, and where the approved building position and actual building position are in relation to that?

 

In each case, as much detail as possible as to how each relates to other areas (ie, other plots, landmarks, fences, buildings etc) would help,

[Sandybay]

Hi, 

Would the farmland you were gifted be part of a croft? Over recent years in Scotland people have been getting there crofts digitally Maped To be recorded accurately on the crofting register. ie showing any land within the boundaries of the croft that has been decrofted, and the full extent of the croft. 

If the croft owner was going to get his croft digitally Maped and measured he could show your decrofted part slightly bigger, so you have a clear title. 

You have to have this sorted, sounds like an honest mistake, less parties involved the better. 

Good luck. 

[Highland girl]

On 03/02/2021 at 18:48, Stones said:

3 maps/plans here?

 

What is owned,

What has been decrofted

What has been shown in the planning application

 

For those who don't live in crofting areas, this is land subject to various rules and restrictions. Land can be 'decrofted' most commonly for house plots. These tend to restricted in size. Access to such sites can still be taken over crofting land.

 

 

The green map is what is on title deeds.

[ToughButterCup]

Ok, this is starting to get interesting

 

This image is on the title deeds

 

and this is image is the land gifted to you.

 

 

Comparing the two is difficult at this remove. So, a question........

 

And I'm guessing here, is the line indicated by the blue elipse below the same line as the one marked 51.3m above?  (PS, not one of the elipses)

 

Edited February 5, 2021 by ToughButterCup

[epsilonGreedy]

18 hours ago, Temp said:

If you measure between these two points now is actually 61.3m rather than 51.3m ?

 

 

This is excellent news.

 

If the red mapped area is the original offer from the farmer that @Highland girlaccepted, then she just has to persuade other conveyancing professionals to accept they mis transcribed 61.3m to 51.3m then tell'em to sort it out.

[Thedreamer]

@Highland girl 

 

If the site has been de-crofted is the farmer, the tenant or is he/she the owner of the croft? Crofters can be sub tenant, tenants, owner occupiers etc

 

For our croft, my wife is the tenant and the owner is the Scottish Government. We had to purchase the site from the Scottish Government for a nominal amount. 

 

There are few on here, like me who have some experience with crofting matters, but your best to seek professional advice, plenty of solicitors in the Highlands and Islands that have crofting law experience. This is an item where you need a paid professional to do the work.

 

 

[Temp]

2 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

This is excellent news.

 

If the red mapped area is the original offer from the farmer that @Highland girlaccepted, then she just has to persuade other conveyancing professionals to accept they mis transcribed 61.3m to 51.3m then tell'em to sort it out.

 

Don't get carried away, I was asking _if_ there had been a measuring error. Not stating there was one.

[epsilonGreedy]

3 minutes ago, Temp said:

Don't get carried away, I was asking _if_ there had been a measuring error. Not stating there was one.

 

 

That may have been your intent but it reads like an assertion with a questionmark at the end.

 

You said

 

Quote

If you measure between these two points now is actually 61.3m rather than 51.3m ?

 

But you meant

 

Quote

If you were to measure between these two points might it be 61.3m rather than 51.3m ?

 

[ProDave]

I keep reading this and I keep coming back to the RED map the boundary lines up with the fence line of property "2"

 

If that is what was actually intended and you have documents to prove that is what was offered then it appears to be a conveyancing mistake.

 

your problem is the "vendor" no longer appears to be supporting that position and not prepared to agree that is what he intended?

[Thorfun]

so the line I've circled with red on this plan that's from the land registry:

 

sure looks like the fence line circled red on this map that you said shows what was gifted to you:

 

so, if that is the case, then that looks to me like the land registry map is wrong when compared to what was gifted to you.

 

I don't know how to resolve that but I'd be checking the fence line to see if it is the case and then seeking legal advice as to how to rectify.

 

[Highland girl]

On 05/02/2021 at 12:52, Thedreamer said:

@Highland girl 

 

If the site has been de-crofted is the farmer, the tenant or is he/she the owner of the croft? Crofters can be sub tenant, tenants, owner occupiers etc

 

For our croft, my wife is the tenant and the owner is the Scottish Government. We had to purchase the site from the Scottish Government for a nominal amount. 

 

There are few on here, like me who have some experience with crofting matters, but your best to seek professional advice, plenty of solicitors in the Highlands and Islands that have crofting law experience. This is an item where you need a paid professional to do the work.

 

 

He is the owner of the croft.

[the_r_sole]

This is an infuriating thread! there's no need to drip feed the information like this!

We still have no idea of how the site was actually set out, what information and measurements were used for that, who provided that information, who provided the information for the decrofting and why is it different to the red planning line? Any time I've decrofted sites, it's used absolutely identical information!

No indication of whether the site has ever been surveyed etc... I'm doing an bannatyne ?

[Cpd]

27 minutes ago, the_r_sole said:

This is an infuriating thread! there's no need to drip feed the information like this!

I keep thinking I am reading one of Zoots threads in a parallel universe ...... 

And yet again I keep coming back for more ! 

[Carrerahill]

On 03/02/2021 at 17:58, Highland girl said:

Yes, this is the drawing the architect did and he has marked 51.3m and the green drawing is what is on the land registry, the figure of 51.3m does not come down as far as architect indicated.

 

 

Often the land registry drawings are not accurate and they know what, I was in the RoS office in Glasgow a few years back (I was there on non-related business) talking to some of the staff and pointed out an issue I'd been having when trying to line up actual boundaries of my site with RoS drawings and he said that the issue is most of them were surveyed such a long time ago, done fairly roughly and obviously on paper, so when this all got transposed to the IT system the issue were mainly to do with scales and drawing accuracy, some came in correctly but most not. So sometimes the drawing they imported came in with a scale, so they could regenerate it digitally, but often it was all over the place so nothing quite lined up. The net result is inaccurate drawings which will probably never be accurate unless it is new parcels of land with defined existing markers digitally on the plans.

 

What amazed me is that it is these drawing they use for conveyancing - if I was to plot out my boundary as per the drawings in the land registry I could move one of my boundary fences about 5m into my neighbours! 

 

When I initially pegged out our building area I couldn't work out what was going on, although having been in this industry for a long time on the design side I had never personally built myself, so that was a learning curve which has improved they way I work to allow for this sort of stuff.