Size Paranoia...

[Mulberry View]

So, we've had our first concept design from our Architect. She has definitely listened to our brief, it deals well with what we asked for. What we have is a 3-4 bedroom home that nestles into the mature trees of and around our half-acre plot. It respects the neighbours greatly, gives us the incredible garden views we wanted and leaves us a good-sized garden.

 

We are planning to carry out as much of the build as possible, so it is very difficult the quantify costs. We have a starting budget of around £300k.

 

Our Architect is a little concerned about our budget, so she is keeping hold of the reigns in terms of size, that I respect and I feel that I should trust the process, but this is so me, it's a commitment wobble. I know she must see all sorts of levels of confidence, but it is our hope to build using ICF or similar and I am a pretty confident DIY'er with full-time availability, in which case I think we can save a fair bit on build costs with my own labour.

 

However, I'm torn. It's a mature back-land plot, secluded from view, but with good sized properties around it. I am conscious of wanting to do the plot justice. We're not doing this to sell, but I can't get future value and saleability out of my head. On the other hand, there is only 2 of us living at home. We have a grown-up Daughter, no more kids for us! (Grandkids maybe).

 

The design is 110m2 on the ground floor, 58m2 on the first floor and a 24m2 carport. It's sure it's big enough for us, but is it the right balance of sensible and luxurious in terms of space? To throw some sizes in, the Kitchen/Dining Room is 5.6m x 5.3m, the Living Room is 3.7m x 5.3m, the Master Bedroom is 3.3m x 5.0m

 

She has carefully designed it around the trees, which is commendable, but some of the ones she has saved are not important, crucially the modestly-sized tree right in the gap of the L-shaped design closest to the 'patio' area.  (though the big one to the South is important).

 

On the one hand, to give us a better chance of coming in on budget is great, it could allow us to up-spec in more areas, but I don't want to finish it and regret it not being bigger. Welcoming thoughts and opinions...

 

 

 

[Conor]

I think it suits the plot very well, she's done a good job. Though it's hard to tell without elevation drawings.

 

We started off with an aim of a 4 bed within about 180m2. That's crept up to 200m² because of a large open plan space. Regarding bedrooms, our architect sticks to a min of 3.3 X 2.7m for a double bedroom. Our. master is 4x4.5m

 

Your other rooms are very similar to ours. 

 

If you visit a developer's 4 bed show house you'll soon see your design is more than generous.

 

Would it be possible to square off the transition from one wing to the other? The extra corner is not only more complicated, it removes habitable space and is a bit less thermally efficient (you want a smallest surface area to volume ratio practically possible).

 

I think there is scope to simplify the design and increase floor area to 200m² and stay within budget. You'll get much more value out of an extra bedroom or office, than a fancy kitchen.

[ProDave]

I am struggling with orientation, particularly as floor plans are drawn with a different orientation to site plan.

 

But assuming site plan is drawn "north up" and I have not got confused rotating floor plans to match site plan you seem to have the living room and kitchen in the north east corner of the plot, missing the sun, and missing the views over the garden?

 

That would be my one criticism of the architect, not keeping a consistent orientation on the plans and not marking where north is.

 

The "non 90 degree" angle between the 2 wings will not help the budget.

 

If you are thinking of future extension possibilities, have a think about making the layout and the building construction such that it would be easy to add a second storey to the other wing as well.

[PeterW]

I see lots of wasted space and a bedroom upstairs with no access to a shower unless they go downstairs ..?? Room 2 has to go to Room 8 for a shower ..? No master bathroom or bath other than main en-suite ..??

[Temp]

Overall I like it. 

 

For my mind the living room is a bit small.  I would be tempted to make room (10) the dining room, then make kitchen slightly smaller and living room bigger.  It might not be possible in your case but if room (10) became the dining room I would also look at making it open plan to the stairs/corridor (4). Corridors are a waste of space in my view.

 

If you want to make the house bigger now there are things you could delay if the budget got tight... For example both garages and the terrace over garage 6 could be delayed until later. Plus some of the walling near the patio?   

 

Alternatively consider what you could add later to increase space. Conservatory where that tree is in the crook of the L?

 

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Temp

[nod]

It looks like a fabulous plot 

and a nice home 

If you look through the back  posts on here You won’t find anyone complaining they built there house or a room to big 

If you have concerns about the size of the house It may be worth sacrificing a luxury item or two for a few more m2 

300k is a very healthy budget for a house of this size 

[Mulberry View]

57 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I am struggling with orientation, particularly as floor plans are drawn with a different orientation to site plan.

 

But assuming site plan is drawn "north up" and I have not got confused rotating floor plans to match site plan you seem to have the living room and kitchen in the north east corner of the plot, missing the sun, and missing the views over the garden?

 

That would be my one criticism of the architect, not keeping a consistent orientation on the plans and not marking where north is.

 

The "non 90 degree" angle between the 2 wings will not help the budget.

 

If you are thinking of future extension possibilities, have a think about making the layout and the building construction such that it would be easy to add a second storey to the other wing as well.

 

First error on my part, I should have pointed that out. The top 2 drawings are shown true North. The Site Plan, perhaps against convention is not. The design does seem to consider the path of the Sun really well actually and perhaps with that better understanding of the correct orientation, it might make more sense. I hear what you're saying about the shape of the building. I wanted something that would be an interesting shape, we specified that we love internal angles, this certainly brings those in droves.

 

Here is a couple of 3D views, but keep in mind they are very early, still work-in-progress. Further comments from me will follow in line...

 

 

 

[Mulberry View]

44 minutes ago, PeterW said:

I see lots of wasted space and a bedroom upstairs with no access to a shower unless they go downstairs ..?? Room 2 has to go to Room 8 for a shower ..? No master bathroom or bath other than main en-suite ..??

 

Our specification was a luxurious Master Bedroom and Master Ensuite. That bathroom is more important to us than the one downstairs. The Master Bedroom exits through a Patio Door onto a veranda, partly covered by the roof. It sits over an outdoor covered seating area that adjoins the South-facing Patio and is screened to the North for 2-way privacy.

 

The 2nd bedroom upstairs was, for us, the bedroom that would be used by a visiting Grandchild. We don't yet have Grandchildren, not confirmation that we will ever have! I'm not sure what that room will be used for if not! Originally it was assumed that it would share our upstairs Bathroom, but I said I wanted at least a WC in that room. There has definitely been caution with sizing, hence no Shower, which runs the risk of being a bit of a waste.

 

Yes indeed, if the occupant of the upstairs Spare bedroom requires a shower, they do need to use either our Ensuite or go downstairs. One of the compromises we made to gain a good sized Master Suite, whilst staying within the Architects 'sensible' floor area.

[Mulberry View]

46 minutes ago, Temp said:

Overall I like it. 

 

For my mind the living room is a bit small.  I would be tempted to make room (10) the dining room, then make kitchen slightly smaller and living room bigger.  It might not be possible in your case but if room (10) became the dining room I would also look at making it open plan to the stairs/corridor (4). Corridors are a waste of space in my view.

 

If you want to make the house bigger now there are things you could delay if the budget got tight... For example both garages and the terrace over garage 6 could be delayed until later. Plus some of the walling near the patio?   

 

Alternatively consider what you could add later to increase space. Conservatory where that tree is in the crook of the L?

 

 

 

The Living Room is my concern. In reality, the Kitchen, Dining Room and Living Room could/would be open-plan. There is a 3/4 height dividing block between the Living Room and the rest because we wanted some sort of division. We have already suggested a juggle around since this concept, to swap the Kitchen area to the Northern end of the Kitchen/Dining Space, then the Dining area, then the Living Room. In that way, we could either lower the dividing centre block down in height, or remove it altogether. The Architect points out that there are long views along the ceiling and down each of the side walls which help the feeling of space.

 

I am of the opinion that I would like it to be a bit bigger though.

[Mulberry View]

35 minutes ago, nod said:

It looks like a fabulous plot 

and a nice home 

If you look through the back  posts on here You won’t find anyone complaining they built there house or a room to big 

If you have concerns about the size of the house It may be worth sacrificing a luxury item or two for a few more m2 

300k is a very healthy budget for a house of this size 

 

Thanks!! I'm still in awe of the build costs you achieved, I only wish I had your ability.

[nod]

Don’t underestimate the amount you can save with good planning 

and tackling things yourselves 

Your part way there in finding such a wonderful plot 

[Thorfun]

I think it's a lovely design and fits in well with the plot. for an initial concept design I'd say it's a great start!

 

but, obviously circumstances differ, when our architect said he was concerned about the budget for the size of the house we're planning I just said we'd build it in stages and finish bits as and when we need them. e.g. the basement won't be finished until way down the line and the room above the garage can be done at a later date. etc. that way we managed to convince that we could build the house we wanted for the budget we have. either that or he just gave up caring!

 

at the end of the day, in my opinion this is, it's not the architect's responsibility to get the house built to budget but yours. so if you think you can build a bigger house for your budget then you need to make sure the architect accommodates those wishes.

 

looks great though. can't wait to see how it all pans out.

[Bozza]

One option for you may be to keep the smaller size just but future proof the house for future easy extension should you wish to make it bigger.  

for example assuming it’s a concrete foundation, perhaps pour an extra 15sqm at one end of the house, at nominal cost at the build stage, and hide it under a deck or whatever.  Make sure you have a layout that lends itself to adding on easily even plan terminated pipe runs etc so if you do wish to extend you could do so very easily.

I have seen roof areas above garages done like this - built in a way that lends itself to easy future conversion.

 

With my build I had the choice of a bigger build lower spec, or a smaller build with better spec.  I went for the latter as my build is to live in not to sell.

Edited January 30, 2021 by Bozza

[epsilonGreedy]

3 hours ago, Mulberry View said:

Our Architect is a little concerned about our budget, so she is keeping hold of the reigns in terms of size, that I respect and I feel that I should trust the process, but this is so me, it's a commitment wobble. I know she must see all sorts of levels of confidence, but it is our hope to build using ICF or similar and I am a pretty confident DIY'er with full-time availability, in which case I think we can save a fair bit on build costs with my own labour.

 

However, I'm torn. It's a mature back-land plot, secluded from view, but with good sized properties around it. I am conscious of wanting to do the plot justice. We're not doing this to sell, but I can't get future value and saleability out of my head. On the other hand, there is only 2 of us living at home. We have a grown-up Daughter, no more kids for us! (Grandkids maybe).

 

 

Build the house that meets your needs for the next 20 years not the one you dreamed of 5 years ago.

 

Smaller house = less cleaning, heating and more money and/or time to venture elsewhere.

 

Grandchildren between the ages of 10 and 20 will consider a night bunked down on your largest sofa with the TV remote to be an adventure, not an ordeal.

[Thorfun]

Just as a word of warning on those suggesting future extensions. We had our PD removed as part of our planning approval so future extensions may not be so easy. 
 

it may not be the case for @Mulberry View but you never know what planning will do. 

[Mulberry View]

I love and appreciate the feedback here. It's all very useful. Great to hear these opinions.

 

One of the main things that we wanted was a big Master Suite with a balcony, somewhere private for us to sit in the evenings with a cuppa, listening to the Owls in the trees and appreciating the night sky with the remarkably low level of light pollution we have (for only being about 3 miles from the centre of our nearest City!). She certainly got that right.

 

You're seeing the RevA of the first design, this came as a result of us widening the plot to the North, it made SUCH a difference to the layout and created that lovely courtyard area which we never dreamed of but are very fond of and moved the Carport into a much better place. We still aren't 100% on whether to make it a Carport or Garage though.

 

The room sizes do worry me a little. I feel like I want her to squeak it up to 190-200m2 (plus Carport) and spread the extra across the whole building fairly equally, giving a bit more room everywhere and more comfortable bathroom arrangements. We've already asked for a juggle around of rooms on the West side, we like the idea of the Utility Room/Plant Room being most westerly, with a 'back door' into the little undercover bit under our balcony, as opposed to on the South Face it is in that design.

 

There is so much to learn when we get into a more detailed design, but we're already excited and that's got to be a good sign, right?

[Mulberry View]

2 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

Just as a word of warning on those suggesting future extensions. We had our PD removed as part of our planning approval so future extensions may not be so easy. 
 

it may not be the case for @Mulberry View but you never know what planning will do. 

 

We do hope to get this right first time. Luckily we hope our needs will decrease rather than increase and part of the justification for keeping it modestly sized is so we can stay in it for years to come. We're in our forties now, so trying not to get too hung up on stair lifts and zimmer frame practicality just yet!!

[Iceverge]

The design looks lovely I really like the style. 

 

I think £300k is tight given the complexity of the building. You could do it for this if you’re content to live in a building site for literally years on end. We’re  17 months into our build and it’s really dragging on. I can’t imagine the stress if we hadn’t aimed to build a €220k house within our €300k mortgage. (I think we’ll end up at about €280k by the time everything is actually done) 

 

You have lots of unusual angles and junctions and the surface area of the house is quite large for the floor area. In short unless you buy excellent windows, put in lots of extra insulation and are very particular with the workmanship you might end up with an expensive house to heat. 

 

In terms of size I certainly wouldn’t make it larger, possibly smaller and simplify the shape of the building. Reduce the external wall surface area and all the hall space and other dead space. If grandkids do arrive simple bribery will certainly suffice!

 

Good luck!

 

[Ferdinand]

Very attractive.

 

I would third consider provisioning for a future extension.

 

F

[PeterW]

@Mulberry View I’ve had another look based on your comments. I think the office (10) doesn’t lend itself to being there as the view from the front door is a wall. Why not move the office to top right and use the space under the stairs and then move the utility door direct in line with the front door ..? It would give a view through the house and you can also lose some of the space in the plant / utility as currently the plant room is 50% door and corridor. 
 

May have a hack about to show what I mean..!

[Mulberry View]

3 hours ago, PeterW said:

@Mulberry View I’ve had another look based on your comments. I think the office (10) doesn’t lend itself to being there as the view from the front door is a wall. Why not move the office to top right and use the space under the stairs and then move the utility door direct in line with the front door ..? It would give a view through the house and you can also lose some of the space in the plant / utility as currently the plant room is 50% door and corridor. 
 

May have a hack about to show what I mean..!

 

Again, really grateful for all of these comments. As mentioned above, we have proposed a series of changes to the layout on the Western end since this concept was drawn. Shuffling things around a bit.

 

SWMBO has formed a strong opinion that she would like Bathroom (8) to be properly Ensuite to Bedroom (7), and a separate WC brought in. The objections to this from both me and the Architect is that we would then have 4 Toilets and that feels like overkill. I understand why my good lady likes that idea, but it pains me to have such a lovely spare Bedroom with what will be a beautiful Bathroom attached that will rarely be used (perhaps once or twice a year when we have family over, if Boris ever lets us). I feel as though a main family bathroom close to the spare bedroom is sufficient. Any thoughts on this?

 

We have suggested putting the Plant Room and Utility Room side-by-side on the wall where the Shower/WC and Bed are currently shown to the West, I think there is room to potentially fit a small WC in between the two, accessed off the Utility Room or separately. This would give us the ability to enter the house from the garden, from under the cover of (14) and have a WC close by, though even if we didn't have the separate WC, the family Bathroom wouldn't be far. This would then allow the Spare Bedroom and Office to be back-to-back in the space occupied by 5/6/10 currently.

 

We did ask for a spacious entrance area with a full height void and an opportunity to have a bold feature staircase. This design definitely allows for that.

 

In case it isn't obvious, (2) is a covered walkway between the Carport and main House, the back of which would be slatted and would harmonise with the thick copse of trees and bushes behind it.

 

One of my other reservations is the lack of optimisation for PV, which in fairness, I hadn't expressly asked for in the brief, I left it to assumption. We are planning to build to a good fabric-first standard, but I am of the opinion that we'd be mad not to have PV in terms of future-proofing, is that a fair assumption? Or not worth changing an otherwise good design for?

 

 

[joe90]

1 hour ago, Mulberry View said:

I feel as though a main family bathroom close to the spare bedroom is sufficient. Any thoughts on this?

I totally agree. With us it’s just two people most of the time and family/friends occasionally we have an en suite with full bath and walk in shower, next to the two other bedrooms the family bath (for visitors ) has just toilet basin and shower. Friends/family are not going to stay away just because they don’t have an en suite !!!

[Mr Punter]

I have not looked in detail I would avoid a split level ground floor.  Also the trees could be overpowering.

 

Overall a decent scheme.  Architect has earned their money.

[epsilonGreedy]

34 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

I have not looked in detail I would avoid a split level ground floor.  Also the trees could be overpowering.

 

Overall a decent scheme.  Architect has earned their money.

 

 

I assumed the architect was thinking 30 years ahead when knee and hip joints are failing. The design is the next best thing to a bungalow with just 3 steps between the lower bedroom and the rest of the ground floor.

[Russell griffiths]

To get to our finished size we both walked around our current house with a pen and paper and a tape measure, we didn’t talk about our thoughts just walked about jotting down the sizes that we thought rooms needed to be. 

 

The boot room needed another 1.5m in the width, but we could trim 0.5 from the main bath, we then had a chin wag about it and added it all up, in total we came out at 180m of living with 40m of garage attached, none of our rooms are big, just nice and usable. 

 

I think yours is a bit tight.