Having a Go

[sheepie]

Hey Folks,

 

Was at a persons house today and they told me that they built their entire house from brickwork up and they said its fairly straight forward if you to it slowly sprit level and take lots of measurements.

 

I am wondering if I get a ground worker in to build it all to FFL Is blockwork something that I could attempt

 

Has anyone else done it,

 

Cheers

[JFDIY]

If you have the time, personally I think you will save more money by doing it the other way round. You do the foundations and get someone in to do the building.

 

I saved £20k doing that over 8weeks around a full time job. And all your mistakes are hidden!

 

Without seeing plans to know how complicated it is then it's difficult to tell. Setting out the brick or block bond, even at the first row can be critical and make it much easier to get details of doors/windows and lintel supports right. Would at of it be visible or is it rendered?

 

If you've done a bit before then you will have a feel for what is required. But I'd say if you watch a proper bricklayer, they make it look effortless and are so fast. Having a Labourer helping is more than twice as fast, if you're doing all your own mixing, loading out, jointing and cleaning up it looses the flow.

 

It really depends on how much time you have.

 

 

[Onoff]

You might start with a brick or block built shed maybe to get a feel for it? Or a barbecue before that! ?

 

I've used a Bricky tool. Tbh it's a magic bit of kit and ensures full fill joints of uniform depth. But it's slow (then so am I). The bloke who invented it, Noel, is a top lad and approachable: 

 

 

I reckon his string line holder device is actually on par with the Bricky tool!

 

I've built a shed dwarf wall. That and a couple of infill walls, it was used too for a mate's conservatory, in brick.

 

 

Only really used it with Celcon block myself. I'm oddly anal anyway that I go over my joints with a mortar gun. 

 

Not sure I'd fancy building a house with one though people have. I'd say keeping the corners vertical so as not to splay in or out is the real skill the higher you go. It was hard enough doing my gate pillars recently. I made a jig for that. 

 

 

Don't know if it'd pass muster on the corners of a house!

 

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Onoff

[sheepie]

 

@JFDIY I thought about this but this looks way too complicated for me its one thing starting from level and keeping it that way its another trying to pin point random points on a map and hope you dig out the correct thing.  Like what happens if you find your say 10 mm out on one side to another or is it just a case of cutting a brick to keep it level?

[JFDIY]

10 minutes ago, sheepie said:

Like what happens if you find your say 10 mm out on one side to another or is it just a case of cutting a brick to keep it level?

Not usually, you'd try and correct it over several courses, say max 2mm at a time so it doesn't stand out.

 

Will it be visible or is it rendered?

[sheepie]

Going for double block dense inside and out so fully rendered so the look and feel and creating a clean pointing isnt really necessary.  I've watched afew youtube videos but I think given the cost of foundations is fairly reasonable here in northern ireland is cheaper than the rest of the UK think leaving that to the pro's is the way forward.  Though I will think it over.

 

The brickie looks promising.

 

The question I have is alot of youtube shows people starting on corners first.  But how do you know that whats level on one corner is level on the other without an extremely long spirit?  Like I know you can use a string line but until you are able to get a spirit over a complete course you will never truly know is that correct or is there a trick to this?

[Mr Punter]

7 minutes ago, sheepie said:

The question I have is alot of youtube shows people starting on corners first.  But how do you know that whats level on one corner is level on the other without an extremely long spirit?  Like I know you can use a string line but until you are able to get a spirit over a complete course you will never truly know is that correct or is there a trick to this?

 

They often use a rotating laser level to work out which corner is highest and build the others up to match.  Below ground you can have quite a thick mortar bed and it will not show.

 

If you have never done any bricklaying, building your own house alone is very ambitious.  Maybe buy a pack of blocks and have a practice, using hydrated lime with the sand instead of cement so you can reuse.

[PeterW]

13 minutes ago, sheepie said:

fully rendered so the look and feel and creating a clean pointing isnt really necessary

Errr ... poor blockwork and pointing will show up under render, and your plasterer will hate you if he’s got to stop up a load of gaps or clean off snots. 
 

You will find better places to save money - if you did it over 4 months where a bickie would take a month, your cost of finance could far outweigh the “saving” you have made. 

[sheepie]

Hey,

 

Well I was expecting to pay for the foundations myself and then do the brick laying over a much longer period say 8 months working weekends.

 

I know it sounds flippant as if I could just tear away to this but as I said I spoke to a person yesterday who had no experience before they built and while it took them 7 years they found that doing it themselves enabled them to add to their build and fund it without the need for a mortgage.

 

But from what I am understanding here is that you are allowed to build up a mortar bed?  See I thought they all had to be one level and if they were out even below ground you had essentially fluffed it.  So there is scope that if two corners are out by afew mm you can just add more cement to build it up?  Does the same apply for block work say you reach an end wall and there is a slightly larger gap say 10mm can you just add more mortar or do you need to try and cut a brick to fit in a slice?

 

Presumably my Architectural Technologst can provide me with effective plans so I can do this myself e.g. if I ask him to make this as straight forward to a DIY bod vs builder they could provide more measurements and heights, no?

 

[SoldierDog]

easiest thing to maintain a level over a distance is to use a water level, cheap as chips and super accurate, just mount on a couple of posts. 

[Gone West]

6 hours ago, sheepie said:

The question I have is alot of youtube shows people starting on corners first.  But how do you know that whats level on one corner is level on the other without an extremely long spirit?  Like I know you can use a string line but until you are able to get a spirit over a complete course you will never truly know is that correct or is there a trick to this?

Use a string level.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/stabila-builders-line-level-3-80mm/5494x

 

 

[Declan52]

The mortar beds should be 10mm.  If you start to go higher in one corner you just get it back to normal by bedding at 7mm over a few courses. You will need a set of profiles which are bits of metal you attach to the outside corners to help you keep it plumb and in line. The profiles have marks on it to suit block and brick heights so you set your corner blocks with string in between at those heights and build to the line. 

I built my own but I did this for a living so knew what I was at and it took me near 12 months building away on my days off work. You will spend plenty of time just moving blocks from one bit of the house to the other, setting up scaffolding and there's plenty of days where you can't build due to the weather. If you have never done this type of physical work it will  take it's toll. Your wrist and back will ache more and more until you get used to it.

If you are getting a pro team in to do the founds then they should have some sort of laser level. When they are done you hammer a nail in at each corner so they all sit level. Then as you build each few courses you can check with a tape measure how you are doing. That's the easiest way to check your progress. But you need to make sure the nails are set exactly right or you will be building a house that will be every shape and when you come to the roof you could be in deep shat

[ToughButterCup]

22 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

...

You will spend plenty of time just moving blocks from one bit of the house to the other, setting up scaffolding and there's plenty of days where you can't build due to the weather. If you have never done this type of physical work it will  take it's toll. Your wrist and back will ache more and more until you get used to it.

...

 

Cheerful bloke that @Declan52 in'he ? Trouble is , he's bang on right. 5 years in, and I'm just about used to it.

 

This is the most important thing he said....

24 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

....But you need to make sure the nails are set exactly right or you will be building a house that will be every shape and when you come to the roof you could be in deep shat

 

Our walls ( well two of them - because by then I'd sacked the builder) bear more resemblance to a propellor than a wall. Those faulty walls caused the following headaches

 

Increased costs in respect of;

• first floor joists (up to 15mm variance in some cases
• cladding ( hours of setting up the battens correctly)
• plastering ( found a magician plasterer who corrected most of the errors

If the builder had spent even one day more getting the lines and levels accurate, I would have saved a good deal of money.

I rationalise it by saying that I have learned a great deal from the errors - and indeed I have. But Twinkle Toes indoors  could have had a better kitchen , I could have had a couple of weeks holiday etc, etc. 

I think they call it a steep learning curve.

[Ferdinand]

7 hours ago, sheepie said:

Hey,

 

 

Klotzen nicht Kleckern

 

That is, concentrate and do not disperse your efforts.

 

In self-building, it is often best to decide on a couple of things and do those - rather than pfaff around over bits of everything. You won't learn 10 trades in a year, so do no try.

 

You can decide to get a couple of skills deeply, or perhaps provide dogsbody type skills to enable you to exploit your pros effectively That might be tidying up the site and labouing for a brickie, or making sure that materials are all in the right place so your £30 an hour whatever does not waste their time. Or becoming an Ebay-sniffer to get high quality things at a low quality price.

 

Or indeed realise that you may add more value by working because you are paid more than you save by doing brickwork slowly.

 

Or spend your time building a knowledge of what you want so you can avoid building it 10% bigger than you need.

 

There will be a collection of things that nobody except you can do - find out what they are. One is to be the keeper of the copy of Spons.

 

(I see that Buttercup has not mentioned the wall that blew down ? ? .)

 

F

[Declan52]

29 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

Cheerful bloke that @Declan52 in'he ? Trouble is , he's bang on right. 5 years in, and I'm just about used to it.

 

This is the most important thing he said....

 

Our walls ( well two of them - because by then I'd sacked the builder) bear more resemblance to a propellor than a wall. Those faulty walls caused the following headaches

 

Increased costs in respect of;

• first floor joists (up to 15mm variance in some cases
• cladding ( hours of setting up the battens correctly)
• plastering ( found a magician plasterer who corrected most of the errors

If the builder had spent even one day more getting the lines and levels accurate, I would have saved a good deal of money.

I rationalise it by saying that I have learned a great deal from the errors - and indeed I have. But Twinkle Toes indoors  could have had a better kitchen , I could have had a couple of weeks holiday etc, etc. 

I think they call it a steep learning curve.

I thought was being positive!!! Building a house is hard hard work. Actually lifting each block, each 150mm deep window cill measuring over 1m( you will very quickly regret wanting large windows) lifting each and every concrete lintel, shoveling tonnes and tonnes of sand and cement into a mixer then wheeling it in then shoveling it out onto a mortar board then using a 13 inch trowel  cause it was £5 cheaper than a 10 inch will have you aching in bits you didn't even know existed. But sure its worth the addiction to pain killers and vodka.

And as Ian has pointed out if it ain't right at the bottom then you have no chance.

[Russell griffiths]

Don’t even think about it

diy block laying isn’t going to happen, if you have no experience in this but you want to have a go then you need to go ICF blocks

your block work will be weaving about like a donkeys hind leg. 

 

Ive had years of bricklaying experience and I knew that my house on my own would be too much, so I built in icf, it’s the same type of skills, must be level plumb straight. 

But the good bit is you get time to adjust things until you are happy, then pour the concrete, with brickwork you don’t get much time for adjusting before it’s pissed and gone off, then the only thing is to knock it down and try again. 

 

If you have little experience then you need a timberframe kit erected or icf and get a team to help you finish.  

[Sandybay]

If you don't have any experience block laying can easily go wrong, the mortor consistency if absolutely critical too wet there's no going back! 

Setting out for a foundation requires a high level of accuracy. 

But one tool that can help a lot is the bricky tool, 

Providing your strip foundation is level, the bricky tool will lay a perfect bed of motor for each course of blocks. https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0083LQXDG/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_TSj.FbYYF40MA?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

[Iceverge]

Do you have long legs and a long back? If so I'd think twice.

 

It's entirely possibly but very slow on your own. I've did a bit during the summer and enjoyed it when it's at that Goldilocks height between waist and chest height but when it was low I had a sore back every evening.

 

As for levelling I used a cheap Lidl laser and some string. 

[dnb]

5 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

when it's at that Goldilocks height between waist and chest

 

I can only dream of that. All my blockwork is either right on the ground or below knee height. 

I too am a fan of cheap(ish) laser levels and string. A good class 1 tape and a bit of maths helps with dimensions the other way, making sure the right angles are indeed right.

[ToughButterCup]

3 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

...

(I see that Buttercup has not mentioned the wall that blew down ? ? .)

 

I was tempering the wind to the shorn lamb.   So to speak.

[Gus Potter]

One thing you can do whether is it a small extension or a big new build with ICF basement etc is to set up some profiles well outwith your excavation. These are a couple of stobs bashed into the ground with a bit of wood nailed horizontally and set level with the bead, ( say accurate to 1.0mm over 1.0m) between the two. You set them at chest height so you don't need to bend down too much. You often used to see them on road building jobs, but less common now.

 

Once you have set these up you take one and work out say how far this is above your floor level. Say your floor level is 1.0 metres above Ordinance Datum. You may find that your profile is 1.5m above finished floor level (FFL) thus the profile is 2.5 AOD, call this your height of Collimation, you can sometimes see this in surveying notes as HOC.

 

Get a piece of wood (call it a storey rod) and mark on it all your critical heights, top of found, top of underbuilding brick etc.  If you are on your own make a little stand for it so it will stand (like a xmas tree) upright. Put it where you want then eye through the profiles. This is quite a quick way when say excavating if you don't want to use a laser level. For accuracy string some good gut line ( 50 - 100lbs fishing line or good brickies line) between the profiles and measure down.

 

If you are doing a big build and just want to keep an eye on the contractor then make one of these and you can just have a quick check in the evenings when you get home from work say. They may wonder how you managed to do this in half an hour! The thing is it can really help spot the gross errors before they become too much of an issue.

 

 

[ToughButterCup]

11 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

...

Get a piece of wood (call it a storey rod) and mark on it all your critical heights, top of found, top of underbuilding brick etc. 

...

 

Thats the best bit of advice I've ever had ( given to me by @nod ) .

A Story Rod is useful all over the build and throughout the time of the build. It's such a simple, super accurate way of measuring and fitting: I'm going to use one today to mark out the support holes for a heated mirror.

I have a ' good one ' and several gash (throw away) ones. I repaint the good one every now and then: it gets loads of markings on it fairly quickly, and painting over old marks is a simple quick way of 'starting again;

The key thing is  - have one reference mark - doesn't matter what it is, just one , thats both easily visible, and immovable. And measure everything from that. Can't see it becuase there's now a wall in the way: make yourself a new one.

 

[SteamyTea]

Rather than try and save money on the brickwork, why not do a Part P electrical testing course and a plumbing one.

 

Or do a stick build.

[SimonD]

25 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

The key thing is  - have one reference mark - doesn't matter what it is, just one , thats both easily visible, and immovable. And measure everything from that. Can't see it becuase there's now a wall in the way: make yourself a new one.

 

Couldn't agree more. I first had a 3m timber post marked up that referenced DPC and first floor level and when the steel frame was erected I transferred the levels that. When I lost line of sight, I made up a long 25m water level clamped to the relevant height I need to work at.

 

As for taking on brick and blockwork without prior experience, I did exactly that. I can attest to the aches and pains, tiredness, misery, and messiness. I did it, but have to say I hated pretty much every moment of it. That was mostly because I had to repair and add height to existing building. Using reclaimed clay bricks in the middle of summer add to the challenge as they soak up the moisture in the mortar like there's no tomorrow, so that didn't help. Concrete blocks I found easier because they don't soak up the moisture in the mortar in the same way. After about 6 months of grind, I started to enjoy building walls and don't find it a problem any more, and the end product doesn't look too shabby any more.

 

When you start off, you just need to do your research, be patient, take your time, and constantly measure and re-measure your work as you go along. Mixing mortar correctly I found to be more like mixing dough for bread making - it's science with art. Minor mistakes can be worked around and adjusted for as you build. For example, if you get the mortar bed thickness slightly wrong you can adjust for it over the next few courses. I've lost the link to it but there was a series of videos I watched a few years ago on Youtube by an old timer who helped me to relax about the idea of taking this on without previous experience.

 

I found it really useful to buy a couple of books on the subject because those books explained, for example, the different mortar classes (and thus mixes), where and why they're used so it helped me to decifer the SE's specifications of M6, M4 or M12 mortar and how to mix them.

 

[JFDIY]

33 minutes ago, SimonD said:

've lost the link to it but there was a series of videos I watched a few years ago on Youtube by an old timer

Rob songer did some training videos which he put on YouTube years back,  these are very good if memory serves .

 

Stu Crompton is good but he and Charlie Collinson  come across as a bit cocky to me (the latter mostly), however they are both doing a good job at promoting their trade, which is vastly under appreciated.

 

The pick and dip method has many merits for brickwork and you can use a smaller trowel and carry less mortar, and minimise inputs to getting the bricks down; saving arm ache.