How many sqm of ICF can you build in a day?

[ZacP]

As it says on the tin. Both as a contractor and as DIY? Trying to cost our labour for our build!

 

We have 260sqm of wall to build. 

[Mr Punter]

It depends so much on the ICF, the building design and the reinforcing needed.  Also bracing, lintels etc all take time.  The ICF supplier could probably give an indication if you send a plan.

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, ZacP said:

... We have 260sqm of wall to build. 

 

Oooooo, ya shouldn 'ave asked me that....

Depends on

• who's doing it: experienced team , team of recently trained goons or on yer loansome.
• how many's doing it
• what the quality control is like
• how many blow outs there are

With the bitterly hard-won experience I now have - give me just one labouring on gorilla, a smiling sweet young thing to bring me tea and cakes, and I'd do it on my own. Nobody will care more than you do.

 

And I recon that works out at about 50sqm per day laid. Entirely on my own - say 30.

 

Accuracy accuracy accuracy is key. Whassa point of a fast build with bursts because they couldn't give a stuff (I'm not payin'for it am I? )  and walls that look more like a propellor than a wall ?

[Russell griffiths]

To many variables. 

With your site it will increase a lot, how many hours will it take to carry the blocks down to the lower portion, somebody will need to do it. 

Full block walls fly up, but as soon as you come to a window it all slows down

reinforcement placement can take ages, if you have any openings over 900mm they will require reinforcement. 

 

I think from a guess the reinforcement over my 5m opening probably took a day to do on its own

gable ends, cutting the blocks on an angle for gables takes ages.

 

All windows will need props cutting to hold them up as your pour the concrete.   

[ZacP]

Thanks all, appreciate every site is different, ours certainly so! 
 

Just thinking along the lines of ‘a good brickie can lay 8sqm of block per day’ comparison. 
 

Think we’re allowing 88 man days for walls gables etc. 

Edited January 8, 2021 by ZacP

[ToughButterCup]

10 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

...

I think from a guess the reinforcement over my 5m opening probably took a day to do on its own

...

 

When furst I saw that Russ, I winced and clutched me withers.   Ooooooffff.

[Russell griffiths]

@ToughButterCup approach is right, nobody will care as much as you, however he’s maths needs a bit of working. I think he’s been drinking de-icer again. 

 

If he thinks he’s putting up 50m a day then that will lead you to believe you can do it in 5 days. 

 

If you believe that then you will be in for a shock. 

I built an 11m long by 2.4m high wall one afternoon just as a tester, it took two hours and I was amazed how it flew up. 

So how come it took another 7 weeks to get the rest up to 2.7m ready for the first pour. 

After the first pour it took another 4 weeks to finish. 

So 11 weeks that was 2 men for 3 days a week and me on my own for 2 days. 

[Russell griffiths]

18 minutes ago, ZacP said:

Thanks all, appreciate every site is different, ours certainly so! 
 

Just thinking along the lines of ‘a good brickie can lay 8sqm of block per day’ comparison. 
 

Think we’re allowing 88 man days for walls gables etc. 

Have you had a quote of anybody saying this is how long it will take. 

[Mr Punter]

Get a quote in timber frame.  If you can't get access, how is your concrete going to get in for the ICF?

[ToughButterCup]

18 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

@ToughButterCup  ...I think he’s been drinking de-icer again. ...

'S Ok on a Friday night innit.....?

 

We're looking at the same issue from different stand points. 

 

If everything is setup perfectly,  l am sure I can lay 50 sqm. But that's not how the world works.  The prep work always takes many times longer than the 'job'.

There are many factors to consider. But simply laying blocks accurately,  50 seems about right.

 

 

 

 

[Declan52]

The problem with starting something you have never done before is you will be dead slow at the beginning and gradually get the knack of it then your confidence will be sky high and it's finished.  The issue will be how long it will take you to find your feet. If you have plenty of time then fire away.

[Ferdinand]

Is this upright or flat?

[ToughButterCup]

Both. You start flat with the intention of making it upright ?

[ProDave]

I can see someone taking on the task of building the blocks DIY.

 

But what about the bracing and the pour?  Has anyone done that DIY?  I would have though that bit was a job for the professionals, with them then being liable if there is a burst.

[Russell griffiths]

I thought there where lots of us that had done it ourselves 

i did all mine and I know of two others who have done the lot. 

[Stones]

I've just checked back the photos of our build.  From sole / foundation to wallhead, it took my contractors 5 days to take our build up to wall plate height, reinforce where required, brace it for the pour, and pour the concrete.  That was for a total perimeter length of 79 metres.  That was 3 guys on site all day, with a 4th dropping in and out.  This was a team using the ICF product for all there construction work, so really, a well oiled machine. 

 

So the answer is if you have a contactor / team who know how to use the product, have lots of experience with it, it will probably fly up compared to doing it yourself (with/without help) as you don't have the experience.  It will however cost you more than just doing it yourself as obviously you have to pay for the team to do the work. Time/Quality/Cost.

[SimonD]

17 hours ago, Declan52 said:

The problem with starting something you have never done before is you will be dead slow at the beginning and gradually get the knack of it then your confidence will be sky high and it's finished.  The issue will be how long it will take you to find your feet. If you have plenty of time then fire away.

 

And then when you've done it you'll be thinking about how you could/should have done it differently, better, and more efficiently ? And doesn't it always take a lot longer than you initially think first time? But that's the beauty of it....?

[Tom's Barn]

it also depends on which system you use to fill the concrete. The choices are:

 

1. One large pump that arrives onsite to pour everty 7 courses - I believe you are going ISOTEX

2. Crane onsite which means you can pour every four courses and removes the need for bracing - small self erecting style. 

 

If I were you I would speak with Jamie about the two approaches above and based on the 6 house development they are completing in Marlborough right now, using the crane, it is definitely the way forward. We spent a great deal of time on bracing which could have been saved if we had an onsite crane. Plus with the crane onsite you move other materials around the site as well.

 

Whatever information you get it will only be a best guess; the weather also plays an important role in determining progress

[DillyDilly]

On 14/01/2021 at 14:03, Tom's Barn said:

2. Crane onsite which means you can pour every four courses and removes the need for bracing - small self erecting style. 

 

 

 

 

crane to pour concrete ??? ....... do they use a bucket ?

 

[Mr Punter]

16 minutes ago, DillyDilly said:

crane to pour concrete ??? ....... do they use a bucket ?

 

Concrete skip

[markc]

Crane or Platform Basket Cherry Picker - many of them have the ability to change the cage for a winch that will lift 250kgs, very narrow and light so will get into tight spaces and set up on uneven and week ground etc. unlike a full size crane

[Tosh]

It took me and the wife around 4 x weekends to put up 7 x courses of Nudura. Could've done it a lot quicker but had awkward cuts to make around steel columns and acute angles on a couple of the corners. Probably took the same amount of time again to brace it all - don't underestimate that bit, its a real ballache. On day of pour had the pump/operator, 1 x man on the boom, 1 x man on the poker and me and the wife running around checking/backfilling bracing. 30cu of concrete (5 x wagons) started at 09:00 everyone walking out the gate by 16:00. No blowouts but a slight 'bulge' on one corner, maybe 20mm out of plumb but nothing you can do about it on the day. Go home and decide what to do about it another day, you will have stressed enough just getting to this stage.

[FM2015]

@ZacP

This still requiring more information?

 

Thought I would add our two peneth......

 

Supply & install of an EPS, pre made(no on site assembly) ICF £100-£200/M2.  The closer to a four sided single storey box, the closer to £100.  Probably works out at a labour only rate of £34/M2.  At that rate, price through the windows.  Covers labour and ancillary materials.  Includes, bracing, pump, equipment hire.  Basically everything.

 

The time is actually less important.  You might, and a lot do, think that a quick job is a less expensive job.  It's quick because we're experienced.  It's not cheap because the end product is higher quality (generally speaking) than any alternatives.  And we're experienced.

 

60 person hours to get a bungalow from slab to wall plate, with two gables, poured and then stripped out.  68 linear metre and about 190m2 of wall.  You might get someone in to work for day rate or £20/h and a total of £1200 labour sounds like a dream.  We'd have to do 1000+ units per year just to pay our insurance premiums on those rates.  And then you have all the capital expenditure, training, H&S, tool provision, alignment systems etc etc.

 

 

So at 40/M2, your looking at £10,400, or supplied and fitted a minimum of £26,000.

 

You can also find people who will come and pour it for you after you've done the donkey work.  Our insurance doesn't cover us for that, we pour our own work with full backing or someone else's with no backing.  We can't guarantee someone elses work in the same way a sparks or plumber can't.

 

I've just scanned what I've written and hear the groans already.  But experience, especially regarding H&S, means we can't be cheap.  I'm not sure most self builders realise that if you get someone in on day rate to help out, the self builder is liable for the HSE requirements.  And should something go wrong, your dream home will become a nightmare.  And what could possibly go wrong with inexperienced people pouring 60t of concrete into a non solid formwork?!?

 

And to the groaners, you're right, it probably won't happen to you.  Be thankful, not condescending.  If the HSE get you, it'll be 4 years of grief for a paper cut.  

 

Rant over.  Thanks, good therapy session!

 

[IanMcP]

On 09/01/2021 at 10:08, Russell griffiths said:

I thought there where lots of us that had done it ourselves 

i did all mine and I know of two others who have done the lot. 

can you share more details of doing it yourself ? Is it better to pour as you build (don’t be silly!) or upto a level then pump. Time I have plenty of. Which ICF did you use ? 

[Russell griffiths]

17 hours ago, IanMcP said:

can you share more details of doing it yourself ? Is it better to pour as you build (don’t be silly!) or upto a level then pump. Time I have plenty of. Which ICF did you use ? 

What do you want to know ??

i poured at 2.7m high, and then at 5.3 finish height. 

Certain areas must be poured as one, if you have a large lintel over an opening you need to pour up to that height and above it by 450 ish to gain the strength that a monolithic concrete pour is for, standard doorways will have very little steel, so gain the strength from 3-400 mm of concrete poured in one go over the heads of the doors, windows. 

I used Nudura, there is a guy on here selling a whole house worth of Nudura as he has changed his mind, could be a bargain there for you.