Tesla going in today !

[Carrerahill]

On 19/10/2020 at 16:15, pocster said:

House battery etc. FAR more exciting than crappy car !

I saw one of those at a social housing fair/seminar last year in Glasgow, smart looking think, I suggested to the Tesla rep it looked like a huge iPhone strapped to a wall, he concurred. What capacity is it? I assume you have some renewables - solar? - to feed into it for later use?

 

Interestingly a lot of housing associations were looking at them, according to the rep, with a view to capturing solar energy then feeding it into the battery for use in heating applications at night. 

 

 

[PeterW]

7 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Only at 100W or so. Give the guy a break lol  

Yeh I know sorry .... he saved 11p today on his electricity bill, 

 

Only another 242 years and he will have broken even ... 

[Nickfromwales]

1 minute ago, PeterW said:

Yeh I know sorry .... he saved 11p today on his electricity bill, 

 

Only another 242 years and he will have broken even ... 

Sorry @pocster, I did just piss myself laughing when I read the above.

 

Sorry.

 

Genuinely.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

? I'm a bad person.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

?

[Nickfromwales]

SolarWatt is where my money will be going. After the kids all FO that is......

[Pocster]

Miserable (expletive deleted) on here 

[Nickfromwales]

Just now, pocster said:

Miserable (expletive deleted) on here 

Bored too....

[Pocster]

Strange how @PeterW doesn’t respond to fair comments out against him . Like the argument how ‘green’ the manufacture of my battery is - which of course would be no less than any EV battery .

 

I think ...

 

If Peter hasn't got one nobody needs one.

If Peter didn't think of it then it's not worth considering.

If Peter doesn't agree, then whatever it is is wrong.

Your opinion doesn't mean toffee unless it matches Peter's.

If Peter think's it's not funny then it isn't.

If Peter think's it's offensive it is.

[PeterW]

9 minutes ago, pocster said:

Strange how @PeterW doesn’t respond to fair comments out against him . Like the argument how ‘green’ the manufacture of my battery is - which of course would be no less than any EV battery .

 

I think ...

 

If Peter hasn't got one nobody needs one.

If Peter didn't think of it then it's not worth considering.

If Peter doesn't agree, then whatever it is is wrong.

Your opinion doesn't mean toffee unless it matches Peter's.

If Peter think's it's not funny then it isn't.

If Peter think's it's offensive it is.

I didn’t see your earlier response but I am doing now ... however ... 

 

I’ve spent the past 25 plus years trying to get as “green” as possible. Recycling, low energy usage , renewables, all of which are a real interest and try as much as possible to use any of that where I can. Water conservation is a huge interest because I’ve seen first hand what having clean water really means to people in countries where it doesn’t just come out of a tap. Want a real challenge then make a house self sufficient for water. 
 

 I can’t put solar on a roof because of a conservation area, but would have the whole roof done if I could. I admire anyone who does and think the UK missed out on the million solar roof initiative that the US did. So my “green credentials” probably match yours. 
 

But when you quote about a lithium battery being “green” then you really need to check your facts first. Lithium battery technology is resource intensive and dirty. It uses significant amounts of water to process the materials, and in terms of transportation it goes twice round the world to get into your Tesla power wall. Green it isn’t..!! Yes it has a use, but it is about load shifting and the U.K. should really be looking at changing the whole generation model

not making people spend on localised battery technology but similar to what they did in Australia. 
 

So to answer your questions ...

 

Everyone has different things they want to spend on - each to their own. Want solar thermal and an ethanol powered sauna, up to you ...

 

I’ve used and adapted more ideas I’ve found through this forum than ideas I’ve come up with. Learn from others mistakes is one of the key themes that comes across time and again on the forum and I support that 100%
 

I have no issue with healthy debate, and admit I’m wrong when I am, so that’s not actually correct ..

 

See above ... everyone is entitled to an opinion, and this forum is about people sharing them. I’ve never said someone’s opinion is wrong, but check facts first ..

 

I have a sense of humour - trust me I’ve worked with @Nickfromwales so I must have one .. but I also know this is a self build forum not some back room of a bar full of jolly boys - there is a difference as to what people find funny and not surprisingly content gets deleted by all the mods. 

 

And finally ... I’m pretty broad minded, but the level of content that is posted by some members is not just offensive to me, it is to the other mods and that is why things get deleted. 
 

Hopefully that’s made it clear for you ..?
 

 

[Pocster]

7 minutes ago, PeterW said:

 

 

But when you quote about a lithium battery being “green” then you really need to check your facts first. Lithium battery technology is resource intensive and dirty. It uses significant amounts of water to process the materials, and in terms of transportation it goes twice round the world to get into your Tesla power wall. Green it isn’t..!! Yes it has a use, but it is about load shifting and the U.K. should really be looking at changing the whole generation model

not making people spend on localised battery technology but similar to what they did in Australia. 

 

I didn’t say it was ‘green’ you did with sarcasm of course 
 

I have no issue with healthy debate, and admit I’m wrong when I am, so that’s not actually correct .. Yet to see you admit you are incorrect 

7 minutes ago, PeterW said:

 

See above ... everyone is entitled to an opinion, and this forum is about people sharing them. I’ve never said someone’s opinion is wrong, but check facts first ..

 

I have a sense of humour - trust me I’ve worked with @Nickfromwales so I must have one .. but I also know this is a self build forum not some back room of a bar full of jolly boys - there is a difference as to what people find funny and not surprisingly content gets deleted by all the mods. 

 

And finally ... I’m pretty broad minded, but the level of content that is posted by some members is not just offensive to me, it is to the other mods and that is why things get deleted. 
 

Hopefully that’s made it clear for you ..?
 

 

Sure !

 

Perhaps you can drop the negative , self righteous god like attitude ?

I certainly don’t come across like that - but you do . I’m not the only one to think that ....

[Pocster]

PM me if you have an issue with me - we can sort that out real quick . 

[Declan52]

Final warning. Debate a topic to death if you want but personal attacks on a member just because you don't agree with a post they made won't be tolerated. 

[Pocster]

1 minute ago, Declan52 said:

Final warning. Debate a topic to death if you want but personal attacks on a member just because you don't agree with a post they made won't be tolerated. 

As usual my post gets turned into BS . Doesn’t matter what I post . This was about my Tesla and my experience. But no - it has to be destroyed and diluted by admin !!!

[Declan52]

As I said above keep it on topic and have the debate about how green a certain renewable technology is by all means. Fill your boots. But you then went and took exception to a post from another member and made it personal. 

[Pocster]

1 minute ago, Declan52 said:

As I said above keep it on topic and have the debate about how green a certain renewable technology is by all means. Fill your boots. But you then went and took exception to a post from another member and made it personal. 

Because it was a personal unfair dig at me !

My Tesla battery isn’t ‘green’ as Peter states - but an EV or Anything lithium battery is ?

Constantly goes on about repayment time etc . @ProDave ; agrees with that but at least put a reasonable and fair argument up !

@PeterW can just drop in - rubbish something then move on with zero response ? . Still hasn’t answered the questions posed . But wants us all to admire his ‘ green credentials’ with postering . That doesn’t do it for me I’m afraid .

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

SolarWatt is where my money will be going. After the kids all FO that is......

I've looked at Solar Watt as well and it certainly looks very interesting. but I was told but a renewable company that the SolarWatt is unable to provide emergency power in the case of a power cut but the Powerwall 2 can. which is why I'm looking at the Tesla.

[Pocster]

My thread !

 

So ! 
if you are interested , or want details , or it just takes your fancy as a whim then please post .

If you want to rubbish , poo poo , de value , mock then please don’t post .

Debate of course is welcome ( not really based on brexit thread and COVID-19) - but if you must - then be broad minded . Don’t be rash . I’ve bought it as others have and will so this isn’t really the thread to say ‘it’s crap ‘ , ‘ not economically viable ‘ - start another thread for that .

 
I think that’s fair ! 

[Declan52]

6 minutes ago, pocster said:

Because it was a personal unfair dig at me !

My Tesla battery isn’t ‘green’ as Peter states - but an EV or Anything lithium battery is ?

Constantly goes on about repayment time etc . @ProDave ; agrees with that but at least put a reasonable and fair argument up !

@PeterW can just drop in - rubbish something then move on with zero response ? . Still hasn’t answered the questions posed . But wants us all to admire his ‘ green credentials’ with postering . That doesn’t do it for me I’m afraid .

What post of his did you think was a dig, The mining one???

Surely the whole concept of putting any kind of renewable technology in a  self build is a constant struggle weighing up how much you really want something Vs how much it costs Vs what if any monetary payback you might recieve for using it.The first thing I looked at before I paid for my solar panels was when do I break even then made the choice that I was happy to pay out in the knowledge that I would eventually cover my costs.

[SteamyTea]

19 minutes ago, PeterW said:

It uses significant amounts of water to process the materials,

Yes it does, as does many manufacturing processes.  Most Lithium is not mined, it is extracted using water. Bolivia, Argentina, and Chile are the main producers and though it is true that some areas have water scarcity and compete with agriculture, those areas are not the most productively agriculturally.  The idea is to lift subsistence farming out of the dark ages with the cash that the lithium can generate.  It is similar to putting a solar farm on agricultural land, the worst land is used, not the best. The best land still generates a much larger income than PV can.

I would also think that a modern lithium processing plant is a lot cleaner that a cast iron smelting plant.

A kWh of Lithium battery storage takes about 136 kWh of energy to produce (https://learn.openenergymonitor.org/sustainable-energy/energy/cars).

That is about 14 litres of gasoline.  How far does a car go on 3 gallons, 150 miles?  If you get 200 cycles out of that kWh of lithium storage, that is around 400 miles.  A factor of 3 better even in a large EV that uses 500Wh/mile (and some are twice as good as that).

Not in the same league at all.

27 minutes ago, PeterW said:

in terms of transportation it goes twice round the world to get into your Tesla power wall

Nothing unusual in that, I suspect that my car tyres have a similar 'product miles', as does my mobile phone, and a lot of the food I eat.  What happen is that the final product will be produced at the lowest costs, it is not transported, or processed, more than it needs to be.  That is just the economics of manufacturing, Adam Smith wrote about all this in 1776, and it had been going on for centuries before than.

 

32 minutes ago, PeterW said:

but it is about load shifting and the U.K. should really be looking at changing the whole generation model

not making people spend on localised battery technology but similar to what they did in Australia. 

The Tesla installation was a marketing stunt and was to stop the grid disconnection due to lack of generation capacity in Southern Australia. I notice that it is now getting an upgrade to 193.5 MWh/150MW.

Technically it it does not matter if the storage is centralised or distributed (I wrote about this a few years ago if you remember), it is really down to costs.  If it is cheaper to put in storage than a new generation plant, then storage is the way to go.  It is all to do with marginal costs, not overall capacity.

And Australia is one of the worlds worst polluters per capita, hardly a beacon of 'green' virtue.

[SteamyTea]

28 minutes ago, pocster said:

Still hasn’t answered the questions posed

I have done a preempted strike.

[Dan F]

On 19/10/2020 at 21:03, pocster said:

I’m hardly a trend setter - pw1 people were that . I like to see the technology mature a bit then jump in

 

This is for early adopters:  https://lavo.com.au/pre-order/!  £19,000.

[Pocster]

3 minutes ago, Dan F said:

 

This is for early adopters:  https://lavo.com.au/pre-order/!  £19,000.

I’ll order one of those aswell so I can start another thread to be poo poo’d on .

[Big Jimbo]

Well i recon i am very Green. The only car i own is a Daimler made in 1975. So it's 40 years old, and was made in the UK from British steel by geezers paying tax to the brit gov on the wages they earned while building it. It would have had a carbon cost when building it, but nobody computed how much the carbon cost was, because none of them had heard of computers, or carbon cost at the time.  It is 4.2 litres, and drinks like Billy the fish, but i don't do much mileage. Now i could dump it, and go out and buy a nice electric car, but that, i have no doubt would have a high carbon cost in production, let alone all these batteries people speak of. I might just be the greenest person on here ? No solar panels built in China. The only batteries come from the corner shop, and they are only tiny little AA ones for my torch, and no electric car.?

[Gav_P]

4 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

The only batteries come from the corner shop, and they are only tiny little AA ones for my torch,

Get yourself a wind up torch and you’ll be set. ?

[SteamyTea]

7 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

It would have had a carbon cost when building it, but nobody computed how much the carbon cost was

Could probably make a stab at it, and because of its age, it will be quite high.

How many miles has it done?

 

Then there is 'green' and 'green', just as there is 'eco' and 'sustainable'.

They are just nonsense terms.

 

My car passed its MOT today, still on the original rear brakes and clutch.  The carbon cost, after 13 years and 155k will be quite low, but you have to take into account that 117k of those miles are in the last 5 years.  If I had got an EV, say a Leaf, that would have been even lower.

Edited October 20, 2020 by SteamyTea

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, Thorfun said:

I've looked at Solar Watt as well and it certainly looks very interesting. but I was told but a renewable company that the SolarWatt is unable to provide emergency power in the case of a power cut but the Powerwall 2 can. which is why I'm looking at the Tesla.

Yes, indeed............ but,

 

Lets all count how many problematic power cuts they've had in the last 5+ years, well, any type of power cut for that matter? Percentage wise, it's a micro-figure.

Just about every offering is AC coupled / retro-fit and only some are incrementally up-scalable in sensible increments ( 2.4kW hikes ) to match the system accordingly to your ACTUAL needs.

The Tesla is a one-size-fits-all solution, yes, you can bolt another on, rolled out for a nation of T-fans with a simple sales ethos of 'copy / cut / paste / repeat' and at 13.5kWh for the V2 you will need a serious amount of excess PV to warrant its purchase. If that has not had its fill then of course it will gulp grid electricity to maintain its condition / happy minimum dormant state ( and it's been well discussed that using the grid to charge a battery, with a limited lifespan, is not economical. It CAN be done, and certainly gets mentioned by my clients during discussions about storage options, but the maths just don't work out as you'd ( simply ) be better off strategically buying power direct from the grid instead.

A 15% loss of overall efficiency is the first gotcha, just with the additional conversions from DC to AC and back again, but the sheer size of the V2 is the biggest design gotcha where you must be able to demonstrate a large amount of PV is routinely available to mop up with such a big battery. Limited throughput is the final nail in that coffin for me, because if you end up routinely using the grid to condition the battery you then start to chew into its life expectancy. Read the small=print  

Add to that the fact you can only charge and discharge that whopper at a factory-governed rate**, then it's like having a giant set of lungs but a drinking straw for a windpipe  

 

Can the Tesla be successfully deployed in a residential setting? Yes. Does it require a lot of thought and for you to do the sums first? Yes. Do people just LOVE the Tesla and don't really care about any of the above? Yes, and double-yes.

 

Disclaimer: @pocster, this is not a dig so therefore this sentence stops you from giving me a ear-bashing  

 

SolarWatt are nearly unique in the way they work. DC coupled for starters, and scalable ( like Pylon-tech and a few other Chinese / budget offerings ) in 2.4kW increments, but the party-piece is the decider for me. 

During times of no excess PV availability the SW battery is warrantied to simply drop to its hibernate level and do just that....hibernate. No need for it to randomly steal from the grid to fill its boots,  so about as efficient ( and simple ) as it gets. Also then very easy to understand its expected efficiency as grid load-shifting ( the correct / most strategic employment of ) eg when it becomes a necessity over the 'winter period' when PV is at 25% or less of it's stated output ) is not in the equation. ( The EPS function is on its way BTW!!  ). Add to that a very clever BMS and a multi-scalable format ( you can add more command units as well as more batteries **which will double or treble the charge and discharge rates and it's win win AFAIC.

 

I certainly wouldn't forgo those qualities and sheer robustness / elevated efficiencies to get an EPS I'm likely to never / rarely use.......bearing in mind that you have to be in the house at the exact time of the power cut to manually swap the EPS selected circuits over ( unless you further invest and pay to install Tesla's autonomous EPS changeover doo-daa ( aka expensive must-have ornament )) which has a 5+ second delay before kicking in...... 

 

There is a better way, but the DC has one Achilles heel ( thank f.u*k for that says @pocster ) which is it is not really suitable for retro-fit and needs to be included early on in the M&E design.

 

End transmission.