Extension- Last Stuff.

[Gav_P]

3 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

Know what folks, this thread really does repay close examination.

There are all sorts of jewels of information here: I'm thinking I ought to provide a thread summary. Maybe I could  draft it in sections. Maybe I should do it over Lent, as penance.

Like an executive summary... no more than 4 pages please! 
 

Capturing the lessons learnt would be incredible  ... so we never ever have to suffer a thread like this again ?

Edited February 1, 2021 by Gav_P

[Gone West]

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Looking at big window in this new bedroom, pools of water on the sill, same very bad condensation patches twds edges of panes too.. suggests PeterS idea of crap frames, seems to ring true as to cause. So if better frames, then i wouldnt see this condensation.

Our windows are triple glazed and the frames are insulated which means the whole window is well insulated so doesn't show condensation. The humidity will condense on the coldest surfaces. By increasing the temperature in the room the level of condensation will reduce.

[Gone West]

@zoothorn Wendy has just reminded me about the moisture trap I use in the shed and her parents use in their caravan over the winter. If you place one on the window sill behind the curtains it will absorb the condensation overnight and you can empty it out in the morning. It's a low tech solution and it certainly works so it's worth a try.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/streamline-moisture-trap-1ltr/4159h

https://www.screwfix.com/p/kontrol-crystals-refill-pack-2-5kg/4896h

 

[zoothorn]

On 01/02/2021 at 13:44, PeterStarck said:

@zoothorn Wendy has just reminded me about the moisture trap I use in the shed and her parents use in their caravan over the winter. If you place one on the window sill behind the curtains it will absorb the condensation overnight and you can empty it out in the morning. It's a low tech solution and it certainly works so it's worth a try.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/streamline-moisture-trap-1ltr/4159h

https://www.screwfix.com/p/kontrol-crystals-refill-pack-2-5kg/4896h

 

 

Hi Peter- that's a useful suggestion. I think I tried some of these, in my main room when I moved in.. paranoid about my Lp's inners & sleeves wibbling due to the climate, obviously I don't get much heat in main room so can't be my huff. And they got used up so quick it was an impossible battle. I think crystals I recall. I also used a dehumidifier for a while.. but was extracting so much water from the air, again it was a hopeless battle.

 

I do seem to notice it worst when the room temp is higher.. which is opposite to what you say, but I could be wrong & it's just when the outside is colder.

 

I can't understand why these frames don't have insulation in, I mean its a piffling volume compared to a wall, but have air in as I think they were described as having, by way of some insulation in-? (yet another thing I can't understand as surely not perfectly sealed, therefore the air likely just cold outside air, which I cant see as being insulative, & I can only visualise as being the very opposite.. which seems to concur with what I'm finding/ where condensation is).

 

thanks zH

[zoothorn]

On 01/02/2021 at 12:08, Gav_P said:

Like an executive summary... no more than 4 pages please! 
 

Capturing the lessons learnt would be incredible  ... so we never ever have to suffer a thread like this again ?

 

Its only half time Gav. Oranges. Do they still do oranges for half time? do premier league player have oranges?

[Gone West]

11 hours ago, zoothorn said:

I can't understand why these frames don't have insulation in, I mean its a piffling volume compared to a wall, but have air in as I think they were described as having, by way of some insulation in-?

Most uPVC frames aren't insulated. The problem is that the cheaper uPVC frames have fewer but larger cavities in the construction which allows air movement within the cavity and hence heat will more easily be lost. The better uPVC frames have many more cavities which are a lot smaller and surrounded by thinner plastic which tends to prevent as much heat loss. Some people do insulate their own frames with low expansion foam but it's very tricky to do without causing even more problems.

[zoothorn]

29 minutes ago, PeterStarck said:

Most uPVC frames aren't insulated. The problem is that the cheaper uPVC frames have fewer but larger cavities in the construction which allows air movement within the cavity and hence heat will more easily be lost. The better uPVC frames have many more cavities which are a lot smaller and surrounded by thinner plastic which tends to prevent as much heat loss. Some people do insulate their own frames with low expansion foam but it's very tricky to do without causing even more problems.

 

No I can see now why injecting foam might cause problems, if seeps in via even a tiny hole against the glass section you'd never get em out. But I mean polystyrene.. cheapest material, 4x shaped long bits you'd just fix through = a fantastically well insulated frame in comparison. Im surprised the option isn't there. The 50mm poly on my hatch top you see seems remarkably good insulation to me.

 

Anyway I dont think its anything in this area I can change, just weak cold ingress spots to live with- a bit of a shame after so much effort but my fault for choosing cheapest frames, altho I wasn't given any choice when I asked for 'white upvc'. Thx

[MJNewton]

I wouldn't be focusing on the frames - I suspect you've got a temperature/humidity/ventilation issue. What's the temperature and humidity in that room like? Last thing at night and first thing in the morning when you discover the condensation would be the ideal measurement times. Middle of the room measurement, not near any wall/ceiling/door. 

Edited February 3, 2021 by MJNewton

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, MJNewton said:

I wouldn't be focusing on the frames - I suspect you've got a temperature/humidity/ventilation issue. What's the temperature and humidity in that room like? Last thing at night and first thing in the morning when you discover the condensation would be the ideal measurement times. Middle of the room measurement, not near any wall/ceiling/door. 

Aha ok MJN. Ok can measure these things.

 

Thing is even if I get results on this front even by opening the small window vent, Im loathed to because it lets in cold air.. if Im primarily struggling for warmth in here, it seems counterintuitive to do even this if Ive spent 7 hrs scrabbling to get the room temp up to 18.5*C, even opening & closing door is done in a jiffy to keep warmth in (unless mvhr.. but tbh i cant see that as a feasable prospect if any noise & additional running costs, let alone building it). So its a bit if a catch22. Warmth is paramount, so it seems I have to just live with the very bad condensation thing, if I cant adjust the frames, if that still is relevant.

 

Anyway will do humidity, temp tests 1st & last thing tonight. Thanks zh

[ToughButterCup]

Don't know much about humidity, but I did bump into this article which might be helpful. Its from Passive Hous + magazine, so it's likely to be worth reading.

https://passivehouseplus.ie/blogs/the-condensation-myth?highlight=WyJodW1pZGl0eSIsImh1bWlkIiwiaHVtaWRpdGllcyJd

 

Ian

[Gone West]

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Warmth is paramount, so it seems I have to just live with the very bad condensation thing, if I cant adjust the frames, if that still is relevant.

You have to live with the frames as they are. They are just the area where the condensation will collect because they are the coldest area. It's only the same as years ago with single glazed windows where the condensation collected on the glass and ran down onto the frames. The best solution is to keep the temperature up as much as you can. If you have heavy curtains that are closed at night they will keep the warm air away from the window so the window surfaces will be colder and cause more condensation. I thought you had solved the heating problem as last time I looked you were saying it was too hot.

[Thedreamer]

I watched this recently, maybe it might be of interest to you @zoothorn

 

I have the little Humidity reader in the image below, would recommend that.

 

 

[MJNewton]

3 hours ago, zoothorn said:

if I cant adjust the frames, if that still is relevant.

 

Personally I think it has some relevance but is more of a red herring. Like your carpet underlay debacle, I suspect you'd likely find that the frames and units are actually similar/same as those fitted to millions of houses (like mine) across the country, many of which don't suffer condensation issues (again, like mine). Heat loss, and by extension, surface temperature of windows/whatever is important but you should be focussing more on improving heating and ventilation whilst reducing the creation of water vapour to begin with as they are all within your direct control.

Edited February 3, 2021 by MJNewton

[zoothorn]

27 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

 

Personally I think it has some relevance but is more of a red herring. Like your carpet underlay debacle, I suspect you'd likely find that the frames and units are actually similar/same as those fitted to millions of houses (like mine) across the country, many of which don't suffer condensation issues (again, like mine). Heat loss, and by extension, surface temperature of windows/whatever is important but you should be focussing more on improving heating and ventilation whilst reducing the creation of water vapour to begin with as they are all within your direct control.

 

Oh Im not saying mine arent just bog std ones loads have, or Im making a fuss unneccessarily (my underlay- my feet have got used to, like new shoes, but do still ache a bit): but I do get hugely more condensation than others do, than is normal, & nothing Ive ever known in any other house Ive lived in, others' houses, hotel rooms etc. I know only that its like a rainforest here, my wibbly records/ y-fronts never properly dry, post is all flippy floppy soft paper etc.. Im certain this is most of the cause although I cant proove it: & you see this is not within my control.

[zoothorn]

4 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

Don't know much about humidity, but I did bump into this article which might be helpful. Its from Passive Hous + magazine, so it's likely to be worth reading.

https://passivehouseplus.ie/blogs/the-condensation-myth?highlight=WyJodW1pZGl0eSIsImh1bWlkIiwiaHVtaWRpdGllcyJd

 

Ian

Crikey that's complicated. Thanks tho TBC.

 

I think what I was suggesting as a question, was if my builder, or myself, is somehow responsible for this excessive condensation? Is it something building control will spot & perhaps want rectified before signing off I wonder?

 

 

[Jason L]

8 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Crikey that's complicated. Thanks tho TBC.

 

I think what I was suggesting as a question, was if my builder, or myself, is somehow responsible for this excessive condensation? Is it something building control will spot & perhaps want rectified before signing off I wonder?

 

 

Does the door frame overlap the cavity closer adequately,  and is the gap around the frame filled with either compriband or the foam ?

 

[MJNewton]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

I know only that its like a rainforest here, my wibbly records/ y-fronts never properly dry, post is all flippy floppy soft paper etc.. Im certain this is most of the cause although I cant proove it: & you see this is not within my control

 

You definitely can prove it - temperature and humidity readings inside and outside will show whether you're living in a rainforest or not, and from that you'll/we'll be able to work out what you might be able to do about. Don't be so quick to give up. 

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, Jason L said:

Does the door frame overlap the cavity closer adequately,  and is the gap around the frame filled with either compriband or the foam ?

 

Hi Jason- tbh I think those are very good questions, but alas I don't know/ a yr ago my builder's 'team' fitted them.. I'll try digging out photos.

 

thanks

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, MJNewton said:

 

You definitely can prove it - temperature and humidity readings inside and outside will show whether you're living in a rainforest or not, and from that you'll/we'll be able to work out what you might be able to do about. Don't be so quick to give up. 

But my post & y-fronts tell me I am living in a rainforest, it's not something in question MJN. Everyone moans about it.. especially obvious when you 1st move here.. very very unusual & I sense a microclimate valley 8m westwards in from the sea thing. Tbh e even in a rainforest in malaysia, i honestly think my pants were drier. 

[MJNewton]

41 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

But my post & y-fronts tell me I am living in a rainforest, it's not something in question MJN.

 

Forgive me Zoot but you said something similar about your radiators saying beimg 'hot' to the touch but it turns out they were 40C when actually measured. You were right in a sense, but also wrong given the issue at hand. I'm just interested in figures really. 

 

41 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Tbh e even in a rainforest in malaysia, i honestly think my pants were drier. 

 

? Okay, that helps, but honestly - figures would be even better. 

Edited February 3, 2021 by MJNewton

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, MJNewton said:

 

Forgive me Zoot but you said something similar about your radiators saying beimg 'hot' to the touch but it turns out they were 40C when actually measured. You were right in a sense, but also wrong given the issue at hand. I'm just interested in figures really. 

 

 

? Okay, that helps, but honestly - figures would be even better. 

Yes, I get 40* at the rads now, tweaked it to nearly as best it can go (high end of this ashp) rads yes are hot to the touch, nicely so. So I can get 19*C in new top room, now & then & provided outside is mild (but have to wait 9 hrs 1st! so its totally hopeless AM: & Ive lodged a complaint to Vaillant now).

 

But constant damp feeling clothes & paper best eg, always even in summer- isnt debateable (neve4 known anywhere in Uk like it scottish highlands, skye even- nowhere). You wont know what I mean without being here, & you just have normal crisp dry paper and brown y-fronts (with yellow piping). Its not in question it just is an extremely, peculiarly & unusually damp atmos.. even if a figure doesnt suggest so. 69% now 19*C fwiw.

 

Along with my fkn thieving faeces throwing n'bors, & the dreaded house cold.. the heavy cloying atmosphere (took -months- for my lungs to adapt to it: you dont 'think' such obvious things) is the trade-off, the price I pay to live in my old cottage in this blissful spot.

 

 

[ProDave]

@zoothorn

 

I am trying to "un read"  your last post, and expunge from my mind, a rather horrifying mental image of your damp, brown and yellow Y fronts.

 

I think I need therapy.

[MJNewton]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

69% now 19*C fwiw.

 

Okay, that's useful. 

 

For that temp and RH the dew point is 13.2°C i.e. water will condense out of the air on any surface that's below this temperature. Noting how cold it is getting outside at the moment I could imagine this being quite possible at the bottom of your doors, particularly if there's not much air movement  within the room. 

[MJNewton]

49 minutes ago, ProDave said:

 

I think I need therapy.

 

Book us all on - we'll get a bulk discount. I'll print the thread out and bring it with me. It'll help them help us if they knew what we've been through. 

Edited February 3, 2021 by MJNewton

[zoothorn]

44 minutes ago, ProDave said:

@zoothorn

 

I am trying to "un read"  your last post, and expunge from my mind, a rather horrifying mental image of your damp, brown and yellow Y fronts.

 

I think I need therapy.

 

No it was MJN's (dry) brown y-fronts with the yellow piping. Not mine. Mine are damp, faded white sizeable 'hangers' not y-fronts, spruced up with PeterW's stain gubbins.