Extension- Last Stuff.

[Gav_P]

Ignoring the central heating problem for a second... why is the house sooo cold? I know lots of it is an old stone cottage, but surely there must be something stealing all the heat being produced, whether it’s the CH, wood burner, fridge/freezer, cooker, body heat, etc. 
 

Can it be simply lack of insulation, or I’m guessing a lot of “air leaks” /drafts. I assume you’ve got double glazing everywhere and fairly airtight doors? 
 

Im only comparing with my house before renovating, which is about 300yrs old (so no insulation) with only 2 small night-storage heaters,  I don’t think it has ever been below 14*c ... when we just put another blanket on top of the duvet. 
 

Do you have economy 7 electric supply? Maybe get a couple of night-storage heaters. People regularly give them away for free when renovating.

[joe90]

7 minutes ago, Gav_P said:

Can it be simply lack of insulation,

The problem with insulation is it does not create heat, it only slows it down to varying degrees. If no heat is being produced then no amount of insulation will make the place warm. Thick stone walls (thermal mass ?) can retain heat to an extent but if cold will only suck heat from the interior.

[Gav_P]

6 minutes ago, joe90 said:

The problem with insulation is it does not create heat, it only slows it down to varying degrees. If no heat is being produced then no amount of insulation will make the place warm. Thick stone walls (thermal mass ?) can retain heat to an extent but if cold will only suck heat from the interior.

Yeah I completely agree, hence me trying to ignore the current CH issue for a second. As I feel there are 2 parts to tackle: 1) the on-going saga of why the ASHP isn’t doing what we expect. 2) How to stop any heat loss when some is produced - even background heat would keep a house above 10*c in my experience. 

[Cpd]

21 minutes ago, joe90 said:

The problem with insulation is it does not create heat, it only slows it down to varying degrees. If no heat is being produced then no amount of insulation will make the place warm. Thick stone walls (thermal mass ?) can retain heat to an extent but if cold will only suck heat from the interior.

I had this just the other day, I have a very well insulated room within an uninsulated building , the room had not been used for some time and I had not been in there during the long freeze, the other day I went in there and exterior temperature was up but the room was absolutely bloody freezing as the temp had slowly dropped over the cold period and as it was very well insulated it retained the cold  long after the weather had warmed up..... I had to open the windows and doors to bring it to the same temperature as outside !  

[joe90]

11 minutes ago, Gav_P said:

the on-going saga of why the ASHP isn’t doing what we expect

unfortunately it was not designed properly, if mine did not work properly then I only have myself to blame as I designed it (with much help on this forum) but I had no prior knowledge how they worked, only limited plumbing knowledge. This set up was designed by a company who I think are completely at fault. Valiant have been good at solving the noise problem (eventually ). But the buck stops with the designer/installer but zoot is getting no answers from them and suffered stress from the problems. If it were me I would go to trading standards, then the gov dept that paid fir it under a grant scheme as others may be getting the same shit service. At the risk of repeating myself it is not fit fir purpose (the basis for buyers rights under law.) (here endeth the sermon ?).

[Gav_P]

1 minute ago, Cpd said:

I had this just the other day, I have a very well insulated room within an uninsulated building , the room had not been used for some time and I had not been in there during the long freeze, the other day I went in there and exterior temperature was up but the room was absolutely bloody freezing as the temp had slowly dropped over the cold period and as it was very well insulated it retained the cold  long after the weather had warmed up..... I had to open the windows and doors to bring it to the same temperature as outside !  

And I would expect this to happen. But this is not the same a Zoots house. He lives in it and has things generating some heat (if not very much) and this heat is not staying to keep Zoot company. So, is this down to just lack of insulation or is it air leaking? 

[joe90]

4 minutes ago, Cpd said:

I had this just the other day, I have a very well insulated room within an uninsulated building , the room had not been used for some time and I had not been in there during the long freeze, the other day I went in there and exterior temperature was up but the room was absolutely bloody freezing as the temp had slowly dropped over the cold period and as it was very well insulated it retained the cold  long after the weather had warmed up..... I had to open the windows and doors to bring it to the same temperature as outside !  

yup, insulation works both ways, think house insulation verses tea flask.

[ProDave]

@zoothorn  We keep going round in circles your new room is nit getting hot.

 

Turn the radiator off and just try heating it with a fan heater of know power.  If the fan heater gets it toasty warm then the problem is with the heating system.  If a fan heater can't even get it warm, then the problem is with the room.

[zoothorn]

On 10/01/2021 at 15:08, TonyT said:

Can I ask if you rent the property or own the property?  Cause I can’t figure it out when you said you didn’t pay for the heating system?

 

maybe some pictures of the heat pump, controller, outside install etc that may help diagnose the problem further.
 

Cheers!

 

Hi TonyT. [sorry chaps took a time-out walking few days clear my noggin].

 

I own the house (cheap small stone cttg shell + cold 80's add-ons). CH is on a govt grant thing, foc.

 

 

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

On 11/01/2021 at 09:03, PeterStarck said:

Do you know the temperatures of both of the pipes connected to the radiator and the top of the radiator itself after it's been on for four hours?

 

Hi Peter. No tbh I don't.. & I saw your clip of 'balancing' a system including get a gizmo on to the pipes to read the temp at each rad, but alas I don't have such a gizmo.

 

I'm happy rads balanced enough to be getting good heat in last-in-the-line rad (in fact the toastiest room, the workshop) and next-but-last (my new bedroom above). The inconsistancy of this bedroom's room temp day to day, I think maybe a settings thing: an engineer mentioned "8am delay" (lord knows what); or perhaps if the desired temp I left in a 18.5* before it goes off 9pm (so this is temp it aims for 1st thing) compared to 20* or even 22*... then it 'gets up to speed' alot slower, rads go only into '2nd gear' instead of '4th gear'. I don't know. Or ext sensor fault?

 

So, I've emailed Vaillant about this (on end of email demanding the overnight noise, yet still happening, be resolved or I elevate this to a complaint to small claims court. no response). So I have to wait in queue on another call today. Exhausting.

[Gone West]

16 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

sorry chaps took a time-out walking few days clear my noggin

 

2 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I'm happy rads balanced enough to be getting good heat in last-in-the-line rad (in fact the toastiest room, the workshop) and next-but-last (my new bedroom above). The inconsistancy of this bedroom's room temp day to day, I think maybe a settings thing: an engineer mentioned "8am delay"

It's definitely a good idea to have a break occasionally.

If the other radiators either side in the run are warm then they should all be warm. Any 'delay' would affect them all. If that one radiator behaves differently from the others it could be the TRV or air bubbles.

[PeterW]

6 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I'm happy rads balanced enough to be getting good heat in last-in-the-line rad (in fact the toastiest room, the workshop)

The workshop has a rad in it..???

 

So this sounds like they aren’t balanced at all, and the ones in line in front aren’t getting the heat. 
 

Do you know the order in which the rads are plumbed..??

[zoothorn]

On 11/01/2021 at 09:47, Gav_P said:

Ignoring the central heating problem for a second... why is the house sooo cold? I know lots of it is an old stone cottage, but surely there must be something stealing all the heat being produced, whether it’s the CH, wood burner, fridge/freezer, cooker, body heat, etc. 
 

Can it be simply lack of insulation, or I’m guessing a lot of “air leaks” /drafts. I assume you’ve got double glazing everywhere and fairly airtight doors? 
 

Im only comparing with my house before renovating, which is about 300yrs old (so no insulation) with only 2 small night-storage heaters,  I don’t think it has ever been below 14*c ... when we just put another blanket on top of the duvet. 
 

Do you have economy 7 electric supply? Maybe get a couple of night-storage heaters. People regularly give them away for free when renovating.

 

Good suggestions eco 7 etc.. I'll look into it. Big sods tho, no room to add in kitchen or bathroom.

 

House is sooo cold bc its an 1830 slate 2ft thick 4-wall shell (inc its 6x5m int concrete floor), in a very wet area, sat on clay. Then 2x 80's cavity brick extentions added-on, without insulation inc floor. Huge voids behind pB (2 bedrooms above) fill with cold loft air. DG windows.

 

Without major wall alteration, I cannot alter this. Actually the orig 4x stone walls can radiate heat just, better than the brick rooms: these are terrible & remain cold even with a decently hot CH rad on, doing what it should/ can do, all day. 200mm loft fluff was added, onto orig orange stuff, above all these 4x brick rooms last year (no difference). I avoid now the 2x bedrooms hurrah, so its just the kitchen & (worst) the bathroom. This is where my plums are often not where they ought to be.

 

 

[zoothorn]

On 11/01/2021 at 10:29, joe90 said:

yup, insulation works both ways, think house insulation verses tea flask.

 

So afaict, I'm doubly fkd then! I often find outside temp feels warmer than inside.

 

I'm just 2 months off spring, sort of. Is how I'm thinking now mid jan. Just a case of bearing it out, & maybe ~mid march my plums will drop again: you never know, having a '2nd turn' at this might attract a hoard of welsh crumpet & the cold will all pay off.

[Gone West]

8 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

you never know, having a '2nd turn' at this might attract a hoard of welsh crumpet & the cold will all pay off.

You can always dream . It's what keeps me going.

[zoothorn]

On 11/01/2021 at 14:02, ProDave said:

@zoothorn  We keep going round in circles your new room is nit getting hot.

 

Turn the radiator off and just try heating it with a fan heater of know power.  If the fan heater gets it toasty warm then the problem is with the heating system.  If a fan heater can't even get it warm, then the problem is with the room.

 

Yup get the suggestion ProDave. But the prob must be with the room if new room downstairs, half the rad size, is toasty even with the door opening often, & to outside. I have black mould suggesting cold bridging upstairs @ french doors suggesting one definite cold avenue.

 

But the new top room is getting hot. But not until 4pm. Its tricky to understand why, esp if the CH is extremely complicated, & then if an engineer suggests "yes theres a ras-heat delay until 8am to prevent noise intrision".. I'm left just bewildered. And onto call after call. Again.

 

Fan heaters are the only thing that'll heat my freezing bathroom, & kitchen, bc they fire hot air twds you (rather than within a room evenly).. have whack mine on near constantly tho to use these rooms. So not an ideal test, but I get your point.

[zoothorn]

46 minutes ago, PeterW said:

The workshop has a rad in it..???

 

So this sounds like they aren’t balanced at all, and the ones in line in front aren’t getting the heat. 
 

Do you know the order in which the rads are plumbed..??

 

Hi Peter.. yup indeed workshop has a rad in. Its half the size of huuuge one upstairs directly above. Yup unbalancing is a very reasonable idea.. but rads both feel similarly hot, at similar times (& next to each other in the 'chain' by just a few metres only too).

 

I'm not sure about order of plumbing, bc the cylinder sits 'between' the kitchen/ bathroom extension, & the rest of house.

 

So the worshop rad seems to be 'last' of house's 8x though. The new bedroom above is next-but-last then. Its not that this 7th rad is underperforming relative to the others, its not, its that (weirdly) the room -must- just have alot of cold entering.

 

Surely the window & french doors, &/or floor then.. if 1) the ceiling is known to be sufficiently insulated, 2) the walls are same both rooms, 3) the 1x old wall is same-size area in both rooms. This I admit is zoot-logic.. but if I do see some evidence of cold-bridging @ french doors-?

 

 

[PeterW]

That’s not balanced. 
 

There is a way to test it but explaining it is a challenge ..!! You need to work out which rad gets hot “first” by opening all the lock shield valves and then you go back and reduce the flows. 
 

Start by listing out all the rads and where they are please. 

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, PeterW said:

That’s not balanced. 
 

There is a way to test it but explaining it is a challenge ..!! You need to work out which rad gets hot “first” by opening all the lock shield valves and then you go back and reduce the flows. 
 

Start by listing out all the rads and where they are please. 

 

Ok possibly not optimally blanced Peter. But if all I know is the rads are all getting similarly hot, at similar times.. surely balanced enough tho?

 

I can't do the open lockshield thing its a bit beyond me tbh. If I'd found a huge discrepency in one rad to next rad, as my installers are n/a to ask, & assuming Vaillant might say "installers dept".. then Id have no choice but dive into the lockshield tweaking myself.

 

All I need to do is 1) stop overnight noise, 2) determine why my top room rad (& other rads) not getting heat between 6.30-8am, 3) find out why top room is still significantly colder on average than room below. I think both 1 & 2 might be software issues, so then Vaillant's responsibility alone.

 

thanks, zH

[PeterW]

Ok can you just do the list first ..? Let’s do this one step at a time. 
 

Room - Radiator - Size 

 

By radiator I want is it a double or a single panel please. 

 

[zoothorn]

29 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Ok can you just do the list first ..? Let’s do this one step at a time. 
 

Room - Radiator - Size 

 

By radiator I want is it a double or a single panel please. 

 

 

Sure Peter. All double rads, apart from bathroom towel rail rad (only type could fit in).

 

From cylinder upstairs:

 

1x medium rad in this spare bedroom

1x huge looong rad in main room below

1x medium rad in old bedroom

1x med rad in main room below

1x huge looong rad in new bedroom

1x small'ish rad in workshop below.

 

Other side of cylinder as it were:

 

1x towel rad in bathroom

1x small rad in kitchen.

[TonyT]

 I think rather than looong radiator as you describe. 
1200 wide by 600mm high double panel double convector May be more helpful for example

 

a sketch showing the rads, what size rad is where etc  , ASHP. Etc would also help is help you

[joe90]

@zoothorn do you have a means of measuring the temperature of the readiators?

[Gone West]

2 hours ago, joe90 said:

@zoothorn do you have a means of measuring the temperature of the readiators?

I've already asked and was told no.

[Gone West]

4 hours ago, zoothorn said:

But if all I know is the rads are all getting similarly hot, at similar times.. surely balanced enough tho?

 

8 hours ago, zoothorn said:

The inconsistancy of this bedroom's room temp day to day,

So is the radiator in that bedroom consistantly the same temperature as the other radiators and it is the room temperature which varies.