Members' experiences of Timber frame and slab suppliers

[TerryE]

(Mods please move this if there's a better home folder).

 

We seem to be dominated here by testimonies about MBC timber frame and slab offerings and installations.  Quite a few of the members here including me had bought an MBC frame and slab, and have nothing material other than praise.  However, this shouldn't be an "I love MBC" forum, so I feel that we should really have the views and recommendations of members who have chosen another supplier, so that new members can have a range of suppliers to evaluate.

 

I would be interested in these views.

[Lolliedog]

I have some experience of the above. I am located in Ireland and have been planning a new build for some time but due to problems with neighbors I am still held up.

 

I did however price different frame suppliers a while back. Whilst not many offer a slab and frame service I did get a few quotes for frame only. My slab is simple enough and a lot of the systems are manufactured close to me. Kingspan is only 15 mins away and they are excellent for advice or to call in for a demo.

 

My findings were that on a frame only basis MBC were by a country mile the most expensive. I posted the results on the old form. Now I know you will say was it like for like. Most of the prices I received were for a very similar construction with very little variation. The company I have in mind have a very similar construction and in some areas better. The icing on the cake is that they are much much cheaper. I don't understand why it is perceived that the are the only gig in town. My advice is to broaden the search.

 

I will try and locate the prices and post.

[Redoctober]

Hi Terry - a valid point and one that should be encouraged.

 

We are looking to use Fleming Homes for our Timber Frame - they are local to our plot and appear to offer a range of frames with various insulation values, dependant upon ones budget. We have visited the factory and a client, who has had a frame supplied by them, so all seems good at this stage. Few TF suppliers will provide a frame and slab, so we have chosen to keep them separate. This is how we ended up with Fleming.

 

Before deciding upon Fleming, we did seek quotes from Scots Frame, Touchwood, MBC & Solo Timber. The quotes can be quite difficult to unpick as they all offer something different and at he end of the day, a decision has to be made.

 

The reason we didn't go with MBC is because we are not looking to achieve uber air tightness, just a well insulated house. [is that achievable?]  and therefore there are cheaper suppliers available.

 

PW.

[TerryE]

11 minutes ago, Redoctober said:

Few TF suppliers will provide a frame and slab, so we have chosen to keep them separate. This is how we ended up with Fleming ... The reason we didn't go with MBC is because we are not looking to achieve uber air tightness, just a well insulated house. [is that achievable?]  and therefore there are cheaper suppliers available.

 

Comparing these suppliers does seem to be a case of apples and oranges in that they vary in price, but also in scope.  We looked at 3 others before selecting MBC.  The Timber Frame Company (TTFC) is still actively trading; the other two which we ranked higher on price/scope have since gone into receivership.

Edited October 1, 2016 by TerryE

[Mikey_1980]

Our 2nd Choice was Bentley SIP's they were friendly, helpful and cost effective and I would highly recommend them for anyone considering a SIP's build.

[K78]

I like the idea MBC twin stud/slab service. But I found them to be ridiculously expensive. 

 

Most self builders use separate contractors for their foundation and timberframe, and don't have a issue. 

Edited October 1, 2016 by K78

[ProDave]

I think the issue of whether to use a passive slab, and what timber frame system to put on it are mostly two separate issues, though of course it is nice if you can get the whole thing as one package from one company.

 

Slab first:  Not all sites are suitable for a passive slab. There are cases where a passive slab may actually be easier than any other foundation system, but I don't think so in our case.  Our issue was a sloping site and wanting all parts of the site raised from their existing ground level and the finished floor level in some places nearly a metre above finished landscaped ground level.  So firstly we would have had to dig out a lot of soil to get trough the vegitation layer, then built it all up again with inert infill and some more. This built up area would have to extend some way beyond the actual passive slab, so either the whole site would need to be raised, which would work out rediculous compared to the neighbours, or there would be a "plinth" all around the house before dropping down to the garden level which would have it's own complications.  So in our case it was a lot simpler to use a conventional strip foundation system and use a suspended timber floor downstairs. Not to everyone's liking but there is no reason not to achieve a well insulated air tight house with that.

 

Next the frame. I found it very hard to find a solution. I did approach mbc but there was a hickup and they never did get around to giving us a quote. I looked at Touchwood, to expensive and Beatie Passive, again a lot of up front costs for design and licensing that just did not work for us. I tried some of the local "standard" timber frame companies with a view to taking their standard product and improving the insulation and air tightness details, but as soon as they got a sniff I wanted something better than their standard offering, refused to quote. In the end it was a local eco house builder that sorted it for us. The local firm specialises in modular built buildings and our design did not fit into what they do, so the compromise was they designed it, and it was built by a local firm of builders who did the foundations, then built and erected the frame.

 

 

[volcane]

I find that it is almost impossible to compare different manufactures. I have been to shows for the past three years and have quizzed 5-6 different providers (some are no longer trading) and not one was able to offer any guarantee about anything especially air-tighness and they never want to discuss anything technical eg sole plate condensation risk, vapour permeability etc and didn't seem to be offering anything different than offered 5 years before.

 

Now that I eventually have planning, and want /need the house asap I'm after assurances that the frame/house will perform as expected. Maybe this is where MBC could have the edge over the competition. The next 2-3 weeks will tell, I have my search narrowed down to 3 (and maybe one other) and I'm now even thinking of pricing a straightforward block build! as I need to be able to afford to live! (but that adds to the time problem)

 

[K78]

I also had difficulty comparing quotes. 

 

Ive decided that if I do go timber-frame. I just want a basic frame that I can insulate myself. 

 

Ive had quotes of £12-£15k for a basic frame. I like mbc....but not at £55k (not including foundation)

 

If you compare the cost of a house with conventional foundations, basic frame and a block skin. To a Mbc twin stud, timber clad on a passive slab. There is a big difference. 

 

The crazy thing is. A surveyor is likely to value the cheaper build at a higher price. 

 

MBC houses are very good, I have no doubt. But taking everything into consideration, they're not for me. 

Edited October 1, 2016 by K78

[lakelandfolk]

Interesting stuff, I would like the option to have passive foundatrions then choice of TF company but  would be nervous to engage a local contractor with no experience of passive foundations. Has anybody found a contractor, other than MBC, that can lay a passive slab?  I have been quoted for the design and supply of the materials from Build - Lite in Rotherham for their Future Found system but they do not offer an installation service.

[lakelandfolk]

Re Build - Lite Future Found passive foundations. I should have added that they offered to provide a full site insulating training day for our local ground works team..prices on application

[K78]

15 minutes ago, lakelandfolk said:

Interesting stuff, I would like the option to have passive foundatrions then choice of TF company but  would be nervous to engage a local contractor with no experience of passive foundations. Has anybody found a contractor, other than MBC, that can lay a passive slab?  I have been quoted for the design and supply of the materials from Build - Lite in Rotherham for their Future Found system but they do not offer an installation service.

 

Passive slabs seem really straight forward to install. More so than any other type of foundation. 

 

I had a quote from here http://www.advancedfoundationtechnologylimited.co.uk/about-aft-2

 

They quote a price for design and supply and another for fully installed. Installed was cheaper than Mbc by nearly £4K. 

 

Edited October 1, 2016 by K78

[Mikey_1980]

The demolition and ground works crew that cleared our site had just laid an AFT slab a couple of months before our site clearance. They found it easy after the days onsite training so I wouldn't be put off using a local contractor to install it if they are willing to install and undertake the days training. 

Edited October 1, 2016 by Mikey_1980

[TerryE]

This apples and oranges issue is really difficult to get your head around. 

 

We've discussed the issues of the slab interface, and in one site visit that we did, the builder was using a TTFC frame on his our conventional foundation.  The TTFC guys used a sole plate, but the foundation was so out of true that the packing under the plate was over 10mm in places, and two internal load-bearing walls were ~50mm out.  The main problem here was that there was a steel pillar landing on their junction so the base  plate was only a quarter on the load-bearing wall.  Our slab was done in a single pour with the UFH built in and the whole thing power floated flat to a couple of mm, so no UFH mats, having to lay it or worrying about internal screeding / alignment / thermal bridging issues.  So my personal view is that whoever does the slab and whatever technique is used, it makes a huge amount of sense to embed any UFH, address and thermal design / bridging issues and power float the entire slab to better than a few mm vertically and <10mm in plan before any framing or conventional skin is erected. 

 

Another issue is air tightness.  Air exchange accounts for some 13% of our total heat losses, but that is with a good seal and MVHR.  Without effective HR, then our air exchange heat losses would be approaching 60%.  So IMO effective air-tightness is absolutely essential in achieving energy budgets and to achieve this the design has to address some key vulnerabilities which can compromise this.  A good example is how the air tightness around the floor decks and joists is achieved.  Doing this post frame-erection is a nightmare, so my view is that you will have a lot of challenges if your frame supplier doesn't air tightness in the frame design criteria and be willing to offer an airtightness commitment.

 

A third issue is weather proofing.  We closely integrated our frame erection and installation of our Internorm windows, so that on Day 0 we started with a bare slab and by the end of Day 9 we could lock the door on a totally weatherproof build, and start to let the whole thing dry out and come to a moisture equilibrium.  Even so the floor boarding was exposed to a couple of days rain during the build, and I can detect slight flaring along some board edges from this, I guess.  This is mostly less than a mm, but it is still noticeable on some joins if you eyeball them at floor level from close up.  In my view, getting the frame quickly covered and weather-tight is essential if building in the UK.  If your frame provider does just that, then you need to address how you are going to get the roof (sarked and) felt and battened and the window openings  sealed.

[Gone West]

I used Isoquick Insulated slab and a local timber frame company. A friend of ours laid their own version of an insulated slab and had Touchwood Homes for the frame.

[IanR]

We have a Touchwood frame on an AFT Engineered raft. 

 

I looked at a lot of options for both, starting with SIPs suppliers and val-u-therm type panalised suppliers and eventually seeing the light with the help of ebuild and looked at all the blown cellulose fibre insulated frame installers I could find. 

 

With all the positive feedback on here and ebuild for MBC it was difficult to discount them, but I didn't have a great experience with them through the quoting phase. I did consider getting insulation for the slab directly from Kore and having it Engineered by TSD as this option was very cost effective, but it was most cost effective when it had a simple single perimeter ring beam that really needs to be combined with a twin stud wall to deliver a fully cold bridge free design.

 

Once I'd decided to go with an I-Joist structure it required a slightly more complicated periphery detail and AFT for me had a slightly better solution at a similar price. 

 

For me the I-Joist structure from Touchwood was 10% cheaper than the twin stud from MBC. The Touchwood frame however required a slightly more expensive slab detail, but overall it was still slightly cheaper as a package. 

 

The cost from MBC to do the raft was so expensive I assumed they didn't want the job, so I'm comparing the price of a TSD designed, Kore supplied raft. 

 

Beattie Passive was about 50% more expensive for the frame and foundation package. The Val-u-therm option was about 10% more. SIPs options were about the same to achieve the same U Value, but no Airtightness guarantee, and no cold bridge free solution.

 

My groundworks team installed the AFT raft. I got more involved than I would have liked as there was an inability to read a drawing. Should probably have got AFT to do the install, but no real complaints. 

 

The Touchwood frame is superbly designed, it really is very 'clever', and it was really well put together. It's been a pleasure working with all at Touchwood. 

[Lolliedog]

We priced a few all mainly cellulose based. The prices we got were all more or less for a similar spec. The companies were all Irish. The house is 2450 sq ft. The price is just the frame element. I have compared them to the point that I would be happy with any of the specs.

Company 1 -€72,000 frame incl vat. (Very impressed with this company)

Company 2- €84,000 frame incl vat (they want to meet as I told them they were too expensive and they felt they could match.

Company 3 - €116,905!!! Frame incl vat - this is MBC timber frame. 

[TerryE]

@IanR maybe you can do a write up on your Touchwood experiences and @PeterStarck add your comments as a separate topic?  To be honest, it's the first time that I've come across them.

[Neil]

I used Build-Lite of Rotherham for the design and supply of the insulation for my slab. I found them to be quite good to deal with and quick to answer any queries. The on-site training was 'mentioned' in my early discussions with them but it never materialised. Mine is quite a 'hands-on' build and I placed all the insulation, steelwork and UFH pipes myself. The concrete was then laid by a team from LaFarge (not clear whether they actually worked for LaFarge or were sub-coontracted by them). They used a very fluid / self-levelling mix which didn't require any screeding or polishing. The finished product was very level and no packing was required under any part of the TF soleplate.

 

The EPS foundation profile provided a 100mm cavity between TF and outer brickwork in which I was able to place a further 50mm of PUR (in addition to the 120mm PUR in the TF, which.if I remember correctly, gives me a U-value of approx 0.12.

 

I  had quotes from TF and SIPS companies (including MBC via Viking House) and, as others have said, MBC were significantly more expensive after 'equalising' the various quotes.

[worldwidewebs]

4 hours ago, TerryE said:

We closely integrated our frame erection and installation of our Internorm windows, so that on Day 0 we started with a bare slab and by the end of Day 9 we could lock the door on a totally weatherproof build, and start to let the whole thing dry out and come to a moisture equilibrium.

 

Wow! How did you manage that? I think we're going to have 2-4 weeks gap (not confirmed yet), although I always did plan to get the roof on before the windows went in.

[Bitpipe]

We used MBC. As first timers, we felt that their TF quote was the most comprehensive (if not cheapest) and removed a lot of uncertainty. Very pleased with their service, great quality and easy to work with.

 

As we built a basement with another contractor, we DIY designed the passive wall interface (mimicking MBC's passive slab design) which has seemed to work well so we didn't get the slab / frame synergy that most people look to them for.

 

Target timber frames were very keenly priced and I've seen them do quite a few commercial builds locally (I'd say that about 30-50% of local developments are TF).

 

Perhaps if we had a bit more experience or were using a main contractor then they could well have been a contender.

[2104GJ]

like many of you we are looking at a number of timber frame suppliers and, trying hard, to make effective comparisons between the different framing systems.

We have had a price from MBC, and must say that we like the look of their product, but not necessarily the price.  We have also looked at Touchwood, better price but different construction.  Can you guys advice on the following'

• Is there a difference in performance and durability between a silicone seal and air tightness tape?
• Does it matter if the air tightness barrier is fitted on the warm or the cold side of the celluslose ?
• Is there a risk of mould growth with the Touchwood construction?
• Is there less risk of cold bridging with the twin wall system than with the I beam system?

Has anybody out there lived with either system for a few years?

[Crofter]

8 hours ago, 2104GJ said:

like many of you we are looking at a number of timber frame suppliers and, trying hard, to make effective comparisons between the different framing systems.

We have had a price from MBC, and must say that we like the look of their product, but not necessarily the price.  We have also looked at Touchwood, better price but different construction.  Can you guys advice on the following'

• Is there a difference in performance and durability between a silicone seal and air tightness tape?
• Does it matter if the air tightness barrier is fitted on the warm or the cold side of the celluslose ?
• Is there a risk of mould growth with the Touchwood construction?
• Is there less risk of cold bridging with the twin wall system than with the I beam system?

Has anybody out there lived with either system for a few years?

 

I'm no expert but in the absence of other replies...

I believe tape provides a superior airtight seal compared to a bead of silicone, which despite the manufacturers' claims can slump, sag, shrink, etc. The contact area for the adhesive is much smaller than with tape.

I think there are benefits to keeping insulation within the airtight envelope as it would prevent wind scrubbing.

Can't answer your other two questions but hopefully someone with more direct experience will have some ideas...

[TerryE]

FYI, I am an MBC customer, so I have a PoV. However, let me look at the wider Q.  I think that it's difficult to make a true comparison because the various suppliers include different components in their price bundle, and you need to factor this scope of supply into price comparisons.  For example, MBC offer a total package including: a passive slab including the UFH loops, the frame, insulation, roof and roof cladding, all necessary air-tightness works in order to achieve a contracted and independently tested 0.6 ACH equivalent.   If you are wanting a passive house then all of these components are pretty much essential; you need to design them in and implement them either with your frame contractor or with another subcontractor.  There's little point in choosing a frame that is £15K less, say if you have an extra £15K of other subcontract work to do -- plus addressing any design issues across subcontractors and the integration risk.

 

We chose MBC because we felt that their bundle meant that we had a single supplier who were addressing a whole bunch of issues that we would otherwise have to address ourselves.  However, if you have an experienced site builder who understands and can manage these risks, then this might not be such an issue for you. 

 

So long as the construction quality is good, I think that the framing technology is actually secondary.  Most suppliers do a twinwall Larson-strut style frame and a single timber frame.  We've got roughly 8% of our wall space as windows at a 0.12 : 1.0 U value ratio.  We decided to go for a .12 U spec rather than a 0.16 single wall, but I have a friend who has roughly 33% of his wall space as windows.  In his case the decision of whether to use a 0.16 or 0.12 U value for the walls is dwarfed by the design decision to have all of that glass.   It's almost impossible to achieve anything like 0.6ACH with that amount of large openings so air tightness is also secondary.  By going with that % glass, you are taking the path of having large vistas and a modestly energy efficient house -- that is compared to a passive house, though almost certainly far more energy efficient than a stock build minimally complying to 2013 BRegs. 

 

In terms of airtightness, you just have to ensure that you've effectively filled all of the cracks, holes and permeable surfaces and in a way that isn't going to rapidly degrade over time.  There isn't a single best solution. but there are standard weakness that your design and implementation must address: around the windows, doors and cassettes, around the joists and joist ends, and ensuring that services don't breech or compromise the airtightness.  Miss any of these and you won't have an airtight house.  

[TerryE]

I am really just refreshing this topic to let members other than those who have had an MBC timberframe have an opportunity to recommend / give feedback on their supplier.  The problem we have as the main contributors is having other members give constructive recommendations on other suppliers and whether they would recommend them etc.  @IanR, @NSS and @RandAbuild, I know that you are both active on the forum.  Any comments? Can any other members suggest who else might want to give input?