Order timber frame but not stud walls?

[Dreadnaught]

Is there merit in ordering a timber frame but without the stud walls included?

 

Reasoning:

1. @nod has persuaded me of the superiority of metal studs. And YouTube videos make them look easy and DIY-able. 
2. No resilience bars needed with metal studs for acoustic insulation.
3. I assume that metal studs will have less (no?) drying shrinkage. Less need to fix plaster cracks and repaint, at least for stud walls (would still need to fix cracks in the exterior wood panel walls). Seems to be a big benefit.
4. I hope that the frame supplier would reduce my frame quote accordingly, although I suspect the stud walls won't represent a large part of the total.
5. [Specific benefit to me] less on-site storage needed for the studs during frame assembly. (I have a very cramped plot.)

What are the flaws in my reasoning please (I assume there are many)? Any other advantages of metal studs?

 

(Context: new build. Will be ordering my timber frame as soon as I get planning approval, maybe in 6-weeks or so. MBC is my current favoured supplier. Frame will be 140mm open panel with U-value of 0.11).

Edited February 18, 2019 by Dreadnaught

[Jeremy Harris]

Depends whether or not the timber frame needs structural internal walls.  We have two structural internal walls that support the ridge beam, and these walls both run right across the house from front to back.

[Dreadnaught]

5 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

Depends whether or not the timber frame needs structural internal walls.  We have two structural internal walls that support the ridge beam, and these walls both run right across the house from front to back.

 

Good point. I presume that to some extent this can be influenced at the time of frame design (steels, etc.). 

 

Then perhaps the question becomes the merit of metal studs for non-structural stud walls. Are they worth bothering with?

Edited February 18, 2019 by Dreadnaught

[Jeremy Harris]

TBH I don't know.  I've liked the idea of steel studs ever since seeing them in France, when a friend was renovating his house there.  Looked a lot easier to get straight walls than when using timber.  Having said that, all the internal stud walls for our frame came pre-assembled and were dropped in by crane along with the other panels for the frame, so all our ground floor stud walls were in place by 4pm on the first day of the frame going up.  They were all dead straight and square, too.  This photo was taken a bit earlier during the afternoon of the first day of the frame going up.  You can see some of the internal walls that haven't been installed in a stack at the back:

 

[Moonshine]

20 minutes ago, Dreadnaught said:

1. No resilience bars needed with metal studs for acoustic insulation.

 

You are going to have to expand on reasoning for this.

[Mr Punter]

I think metal stud for ICF and brick and block, timber stud for timber frame and I would get the TF company to do it. Get them to quote to insulate the walls as well.

[Dreadnaught]

12 minutes ago, Moonshine said:

You are going to have to expand on reasoning for this.

Oh nil expertise here, just quoting from: http://www.mullinsacoustics.com/tidbits.html.

 

Quote

Resilient channels are not needed with lightweight (20 gauge or thinner) non-structural metal studs.
Wood stud + resilient channel = metal stud.

 

And I think I recall @nod referring to the better sound insulation properties of metal studs over wooden ones in general.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Dreadnaught

[scottishjohn]

1 hour ago, Dreadnaught said:

Is there merit in ordering a timber frame but without the stud walls included?

 

Reasoning:

1. @nod has persuaded me of the superiority of metal studs. And YouTube videos make them look easy and DIY-able. 
2. No resilience bars needed with metal studs for acoustic insulation.
3. I assume that metal studs will have less (no?) drying shrinkage. Less need to fix plaster cracks and repaint, at least for stud walls (would still need to fix cracks in the exterior wood panel walls). Seems to be a big benefit.
4. I hope that the frame supplier would reduce my frame quote accordingly, although I suspect the stud walls won't represent a large part of the total.
5. [Specific benefit to me] less on-site storage needed for the studs during frame assembly. (I have a very cramped plot.)

What are the flaws in my reasoning please (I assume there are many)? Any other advantages of metal studs?

 

(Context: new build. Will be ordering my timber frame as soon as I get planning approval, maybe in 6-weeks or so. MBC is my current favoured supplier. Frame will be 140mm open panel with U-value of 0.11).

I bought the  expensive fancy pliers/crimpers www.belmoretools.co.uk/acatalog/Heavy_Duty_Crimping_Tool.html to fix the these metal studs together  on a job i did --bends things to make them fixed together

not impressed with them --would use pop rivets next time --or if in work would use spot welder . lol

once drywall is on -it don,t matter anyway 

Edited February 18, 2019 by scottishjohn

[ProDave]

Like  @JSHarris our house has 2 internal supporting walls either side of the stairwell (in many ways it is a similar house layout).  They serve 2 purposes, firstly to support the 11 metre long ridge beam, and secondly to minimise joist spans by allowing the joists to span the width of the rooms.  These were the only internal walls supplied by the builders.  All the other non load bearing internal walls were built by me and could have been metal if I had wanted.

 

If we had tried to get a shell built with no internal walls at all, then the joists would have had to span front to back making them longer and bigger, and you would still have to find a way to support that ridge beam.

 

So by all means ask the designer to minimise the number of load bearing walls as much as reasonably possible and then only supply and erect the kit with just the load bearing walls.

 

The other thing I did to "simplify" the build was I stipulated no sleeper walls downstairs.  The initial design had sleeper walls to help support the ground floor joists, but I argued the upstairs joists can span that gap with no intermediate support, so specify downstairs joists than can as well.

[Moonshine]

43 minutes ago, Dreadnaught said:

Oh nil expertise here, just quoting from: http://www.mullinsacoustics.com/tidbits.html.

 

And I think I recall @nod referring to the better sound insulation properties of metal studs over wooden ones in general.

 

What acoustic performance are you actually trying to achieve? minimum building regs for internal walls (Rw 40 dB)? 

[Dreadnaught]

2 minutes ago, Moonshine said:

What acoustic performance are you actually trying to achieve? minimum building regs for internal walls (Rw 40 dB)? 

 

Oh nothing extraordinary, just decent sound isolation between bedrooms that share a wall, and between utility room with a washing machine and the rest of the bungalow.

 

By learning about thermal insulation, I have been Pavlov-style conditioned to be skeptical of buildings regs minimums. Not sure if I should be equally so for the household sound insulation. What do you think?

[Moonshine]

O.k for comparison,

• 75mm x 38mm timber studs @ 600mm centres with 12.5mm wall board with no insulation, claimed Rw 35 (Source: white book A026001/005)
• 70mm 'C' studs @ 600mm centres with 12.5mm wall board with no insulation, claimed Rw 36 (Source: white book A206013)

There is not significant difference really, and a resilient bar may add 2-3 dB.

 

You are right about the minimums and the acoustic ones for building regs aren't exactly great, but its getting the good acoustic treatment where it is needed, and where its actually going to make a difference in how the house is lived in.

 

In the case of the one wall, to beef it up acoustical, the frame type (metal or wood) isn't what will give the best treatment, think about additional plasterboard layers, denser plasterboard, resilient bars, or even independent wall leaves.

[Jeremy Harris]

I'd second just doubling up on plasterboard layers for any walls where you're concerned about noise transmission.  If the inside of the wall is filled with dense acoustic insulation as well then it should perform pretty well. 

 

We're finding that just standard timber studs on 400mm centres, with the cavity filled with rockwool and skimmed plasterboard either side is pretty good.  More noise escapes from the doors than the walls, although even then it's not much.  My study is next to the living room, and with the living room door to the hall closed I can't hear the TV in my study, even with my study door open. 

 

[Thedreamer]

We have two internal load bearing stud wall supporting the Kerto beam.

 

Often people change their minds with sizes of rooms etc so would it not be in your interest for a non load bearing stud to be built on site by your joiner. 

 

I plan to build these once the air tightness & insulation works have been completed.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by Thedreamer

[scottishjohn]

and foam backed plasterboard is very good for sound insulation --

or that is what i found when fitting it on top of original plaster board --and that was 32mm --not mega thick 

was to better insulate outside walls --but very noticeable the drop in sound from outside

[nod]

2 hours ago, Dreadnaught said:

Is there merit in ordering a timber frame but without the stud walls included?

 

Reasoning:

1. @nod has persuaded me of the superiority of metal studs. And YouTube videos make them look easy and DIY-able. 
2. No resilience bars needed with metal studs for acoustic insulation.
3. I assume that metal studs will have less (no?) drying shrinkage. Less need to fix plaster cracks and repaint, at least for stud walls (would still need to fix cracks in the exterior wood panel walls). Seems to be a big benefit.
4. I hope that the frame supplier would reduce my frame quote accordingly, although I suspect the stud walls won't represent a large part of the total.
5. [Specific benefit to me] less on-site storage needed for the studs during frame assembly. (I have a very cramped plot.)

What are the flaws in my reasoning please (I assume there are many)? Any other advantages of metal studs?

 

(Context: new build. Will be ordering my timber frame as soon as I get planning approval, maybe in 6-weeks or so. MBC is my current favoured supplier. Frame will be 140mm open panel with U-value of 0.11).

A quick answer is there arnt any flaws

 

If you need any of the walls to be structural Simply use I stud Far stronger than timber 

You can also use res bar on any MF studs 

If you take your time you will find it easier than timber 

Dont bother buying crimpers There ok But a devil to unpick when you have to move Somthing 

If you buy a couple of  Irwin C clamps They are great for holding the stud in position while you get a wafer head in 

If you need any advise 

Don’t hesitate 

[Russell griffiths]

You may find an internal wall may not be load bearing 

but it may be there as a racking wall, long runs of exterior walls will need internal walls to stop buckling and other things

can you imagine building a complete outer shell with no internal walls, it would need to be very stiff to withstand wind pressure and loading from the trusses 

i would check with the frame manufacturer before getting to intothis idea. 

 

It maybe that that they can build in some nibs,and then you continue in steel, but that seems like a lot of hassle. 

 

[ProDave]

19 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

You may find an internal wall may not be load bearing 

but it may be there as a racking wall, long runs of exterior walls will need internal walls to stop buckling and other things

can you imagine building a complete outer shell with no internal walls, it would need to be very stiff to withstand wind pressure and loading from the trusses 

i would check with the frame manufacturer before getting to intothis idea. 

 

It maybe that that they can build in some nibs,and then you continue in steel, but that seems like a lot of hassle. 

 

Very true. My 2 internal load bearing walls either side of the stair well are also for racking strength, and for that reason covered on one side in OSB before the plasterboard.

[Dreadnaught]

1 hour ago, Russell griffiths said:

You may find an internal wall may not be load bearing  but it may be there as a racking wall

 

Ah good point. Thanks.

 

1 hour ago, Russell griffiths said:

seems like a lot of hassle

 

You may well be right. I am sometimes too keen to try something new.

[Gone West]

15 minutes ago, Dreadnaught said:

I am sometimes too keen to try something new.

You could always try a portal frame then you wouldn't have to worry about structural internal walls at all .

[Dreadnaught]

16 hours ago, PeterStarck said:

You could always try a portal frame then you wouldn't have to worry about structural internal walls at all .

 

Haha, thanks @PeterStarck. Perhaps I might, if I had your impressive ability! My problem is that my keenness is likely to overwhelm mine ?.

[TerryE]

Another factor here is the structure calcs for the building inspector. MBC did our entire package and we just passed the spreadsheets and reports from the structural engineer to the inspector and he was very impressed.  You might lose this simplicity if you start sourcing internal walls from another supplier. Have a word with your TF supplier; it may not be an issue if you only source the non load bearing walls from another supply.

Edited February 19, 2019 by TerryE