Automation Planning

[MrMagic]

8 hours ago, vfrdave said:

@MrMagic am I right in saying that you are running Home assistant on a Pi with a Z-stick plugged in?

 

@vfrdave Yep thats correct

 

@pocster I was using Indigo previously - super simple to use, I only gave up as I got fed up paying for the major upgrades (cheap skate me). Much easier to set up complex automations tho via the Gui rather than writing scripts in Home Assistant (although its getting better all the time)

[puntloos]

Just starting to think this through, but some thoughts:

 

- Would love to find a good source for built-in hardware. Many of these things have to be 'stapled onto' your wall whereas in a new build I'd love to have 'in ceiling' devices like a motion, temp, humid sensor that I can hard-wire into some central control device. Alternatively something that uses one of the bigger brands - e.g @JSHarris is right to point out that some random company might be gone in 5 years, but "Samsung Smartthings" is probably here to stay. 

 

- Would love to link temperature sensors and possibly underfloor heating controllers to something like Nest, or at least 'IFTTT' so perhaps a high detected temperature in a room can roll down the blinds or turn on the ventilation.

 

- Rain sensor rolling back the awnings would be great, but I don't think "smart wifi awnings" exist yet, so instead I'd love some hardware switching box that can connect to RS232 (and other) wired control systems. This guy seems to have manually rigged it up with an Arduino or two.. would prefer something more off-the-shelf-y..

 

Anyone have solutions for some/all of the above?

[SteamyTea]

5 hours ago, puntloos said:

Rain sensor rolling back the awnings would be great

Would want it to work better than the wipers on my car.  Who thought it was a good idea to turn the wipers off when it is raining, just because you have stopped at some traffic lights.

Almost as bad as turning themselves on after a few drops of rain, makes the windscreen very smeary.

 

I used to get frustrated that my lightswitch was on the wrong wall, furthest from the door.  This was annoying when carrying in shopping.  But now I just park the car, open the door, turn the light on and go back to the car to get shopping.  Really quite easy and quick.  I have a very good coat for when it rains, which is most of the time in Cornwall.

[Triassic]

Motion / proximity sensors are fast becoming the norm and I’ll be using them once I get started inside the house.

 

A few friends have automated window roller blinds, one uses a smart phone and the other a TV style remote control. Personally I’d want to be able to close the blinds in the event of a cyber war, so anything “smart” or Cloud based is out.

 

Another friend, an electronics, control electrician, was making a good living replacing not very old home automation central control units where the firm had gone bust and spares could not be obtained, so again I’d like to keep it simple enough that parts could be replace as and when necessary. Maybe keeping each item of automation separate rather than integrated into a central “brain”.

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Triassic

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, Triassic said:

Maybe keeping each item of automation separate rather than integrated into a central “brain”.

Now that computing power is so cheap, I got some ESP 8266s for less than £3 each, I think replacing an normal switch with a smart, self contained, controller is the better way to go.

If it all goes wrong, just replace with the original switch.  The cost of all the extra wiring, even if done while the electrician is there, is still high for the perceived benefits.

As for Cloud based systems, these should really be discounted right from the start.  Can't remember if it was Google or Amazon that bought a home automation company, then killed the service.

[Triassic]

3 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Can't remember if it was Google or Amazon that bought a home automation company, then killed the service.

I’m sure Nests servers went down during the winter for a day or so, and many people lost control of their home!

 

KISS all the way.

 

What we need is a Buildhub Guide to a simple home automation system, bit like the VAT guide. Anyone up for a challenge?

Edited May 20, 2019 by Triassic

[SteamyTea]

9 minutes ago, Triassic said:

Buildhub Guide to a simple home automation system

Ask 100 engineers for a solution to a simple problem and you will get 100 right answers.

[Triassic]

3 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Ask 100 engineers for a solution to a simple problem and you will get 100 right answers.

Maybe we could start with a list of what can be automated and how,

[SteamyTea]

1 minute ago, Triassic said:

Maybe we could start with a list

Start a new thread and put light and proximity sensor on it.  Always a good start that is.

[lizzie]

It was one of things I looked into with our automated lighting.  I didnt want a system that was defunct in a couple of years. So far the one we have is working ok but I dont want to jinx it so just saying so far.....

 

We went for one that is part of Phillips as they are probably the biggest and oldest and most likely to eat the competitors like Loxone over time. Its a guessing game  with all of it though.

 

We have a heatmiser system for our heating control...that can be via nest too, its enough of a pain just on heatmiser never mind nest.

 

We ended up with two of the bedroom light switches behind the doors as we changed doors over but forgot to tell electrician.  We still have the switches behind the doors but with blanking plates on, we have those wireless switches in the correct positions so we can put light on as we go in.  I have kept cover plates for wired switches in case we ever have to change back.

[Ed Davies]

1 hour ago, Triassic said:

Maybe keeping each item of automation separate rather than integrated into a central “brain”.

 

I'll be going for the exact opposite: have a bunch of relatively simple and generic sensors and actuators around the house and one central brain that can be easily replaced. Maybe a bit of very limited intelligence in separate safety subsystems to protect against things like overheating thermal stores or solar thermal and battery over- and undercharge if the central brain fails but most of the convenience and optimization intelligence to be kept in one place.

 

Apart from anything else, keeping the sensors and actuators simple makes for easier to maintain and understand documentation. If somebody comes along in the future and finds the central bit too mind boggling they can at least keep the peripheral bits and replace the central bit without having to dig holes in the wall to replace hindbrains everywhere.

[Jeremy Harris]

5 minutes ago, Ed Davies said:

 

I'll be going for the exact opposite: have a bunch of relatively simple and generic sensors and actuators around the house and one central brain that can be easily replaced. Maybe a bit of very limited intelligence in separate safety subsystems to protect against things like overheating thermal stores or solar thermal and battery over- and undercharge if the central brain fails but most of the convenience and optimization intelligence to be kept in one place.

 

Apart from anything else, keeping the sensors and actuators simple makes for easier to maintain and understand documentation. If somebody comes along in the future and finds the central bit too mind boggling they can at least keep the peripheral bits and replace the central bit without having to dig holes in the wall to replace hindbrains everywhere.

 

There's a lot to be said for running separate switched radials, from a single central location, as an electrical installation topology.  It allows for anything from dumb switching with conventional switches, to any one of many possible automation systems, either giving full or part control.  It also allows an easy future upgrade path, with minimal disruption to the decor etc, as pretty much any future changes would be made at one central location.

 

By the same token, I've long felt that the UK should get rid of its obsession with ring finals, and return to the radial system used pretty much everywhere else in the world.

[ProDave]

Personally I am no fan of using an APP or similar to control lighting. You can't beat the convenience of a switch on the wall that serves the obvious function. but I would add fixed switches need a bit more thinking that normally given.  e.g I am the only electrician I know that routinely provides 2 way upstairs / downstairs switching on the hall light, as well as the landing light.

 

If wiring spider fashion to a junction box, make it somewhere accessible and KNOWN rather than the usual "hunt the hidden junction box" found in older houses.

[lizzie]

I have wall switches as well as an app.....belt and braces!

[Pocster]

15 hours ago, puntloos said:

Just starting to think this through, but some thoughts:

 

- Would love to find a good source for built-in hardware. Many of these things have to be 'stapled onto' your wall whereas in a new build I'd love to have 'in ceiling' devices like a motion, temp, humid sensor that I can hard-wire into some central control device. Alternatively something that uses one of the bigger brands - e.g @JSHarris is right to point out that some random company might be gone in 5 years, but "Samsung Smartthings" is probably here to stay. 

 

- Would love to link temperature sensors and possibly underfloor heating controllers to something like Nest, or at least 'IFTTT' so perhaps a high detected temperature in a room can roll down the blinds or turn on the ventilation.

 

- Rain sensor rolling back the awnings would be great, but I don't think "smart wifi awnings" exist yet, so instead I'd love some hardware switching box that can connect to RS232 (and other) wired control systems. This guy seems to have manually rigged it up with an Arduino or two.. would prefer something more off-the-shelf-y..

 

Anyone have solutions for some/all of the above?

Fibaro for sensors 

indigo for Mac as control software .

vera and fibaro own controllers I found to be pants - though of course may be good now .

Get a 2nd Hand Mac mini and install indigo ( you have to pay for updates ) . Mac is reliable hardware , indigo is solid software .

I tried every other permutation . Not keen on any apple or google solution as you will be bound to their eco system.  

Edited May 20, 2019 by pocster

[Ed Davies]

49 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

There's a lot to be said for running separate switched radials, from a single central location, as an electrical installation topology.

 

Yes. Friend did that for the lighting on a barn conversion - just a cupboard full of terminal blocks with separate cables to each light fitting and light switch. Probably only cost one more roll of cable and a few boxes of terminal blocks. I'll be doing something similar on my house though probably with two “central” locations, one in each loft.

 

Sockets don't need individual radials, of course, but there's a lot to be said for having a few on their own ones which can be controlled separately (or go on separate RCDs).

[NWGEAR]

Before automating anything you must do due diligence and read https://twitter.com/internetofshit

[Pocster]

1 hour ago, NWGEAR said:

Before automating anything you must do due diligence and read https://twitter.com/internetofshit

Sure 

That’s why you don’t use cloud based stuff . Just have your own NAS and VPN into it . Much safer than the big boys piss poor security.

[ProDave]

Surely somebody has done a home automation system based on the Rasppbery Pi?  That would be where I would be looking.

[Pocster]

8 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Surely somebody has done a home automation system based on the Rasppbery Pi?  That would be where I would be looking.

There are lots . Depends if you want to brew your own or not 

[Adam2]

I'm so far impressed with my Z-wave based Fibaro setup. By going with a "standard" like Z Wave you can, to a degree, swap out components like switches and sensors. I'm trialling this in my current house to check for stability etc before the new build and so far so good. Turn off the central component, no problem light switches still do their thing, even light switches that actually wirelessly control a wall socket which has a regular table light plugged into it (simple remote logic is stored locally). It feels like a good balance between a high end lighting control system where you need an external programmer and a custom/hard for future owners to maintain heath robinson affair. Also have some sensors and a simple scene to turn on radio over Sonos in the mornings and all has worked though did have 1 system crash after about 6 months. Bought some different brand (smaller than Fibaro) plug in socket adapters that are great. I'm not going anywhere near automated / remote door or window controls based on proximity etc. Though may consider a top floor roof light opener linked to internal temp and rain sensor!

 

The "programming" for this is largely via a graphic interface + you can get into some basic coding if you want to but I will try and avoid this to ease future maintainability.

 

In case it's not obvious this is a local setup with no requirement for constant internet access - though of course to get updates etc you will want to have this from time to time. 

 

Another nice feature of this approach is that for light switches you can choose pretty much anything (best with retractive switches). You can also of course have key areas as part of the "system" but others with simpler requirements just operating on their own as regular light switch controls - BUT still use the same switches on these as well so it all looks the same.

 

I did start another thread on a very similar topic just a few down the list here which may have some additional helpful info.

 

Wiring - this type of approach can either be "regular" where you have the wireless comms/control unit fitted behind the light switch  or have 1 or more central wiring points where the switch control units all sit together - that allows easier maintenance of things if needed. 

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Adam2

[Pocster]

5 minutes ago, Adam2 said:

I'm so far impressed with my Z-wave based Fibaro setup. By going with a "standard" like Z Wave you can, to a degree, swap out components like switches and sensors. I'm trialling this in my current house to check for stability etc before the new build and so far so good. Turn off the central component, no problem light switches still do their thing, even light switches that actually wirelessly control a wall socket which has a regular table light plugged into it (simple remote logic is stored locally). It feels like a good balance between a high end lighting control system where you need an external programmer and a custom/hard for future owners to maintain heath robinson affair. Also have some sensors and a simple scene to turn on radio over Sonos in the mornings and all has worked though did have 1 system crash after about 6 months. Bought some different brand (smaller than Fibaro) plug in socket adapters that are great. I'm not going anywhere near automated / remote door or window controls based on proximity etc. Though may consider a top floor roof light opener linked to internal temp and rain sensor!

 

The "programming" for this is largely via a graphic interface + you can get into some basic coding if you want to but I will try and avoid this to ease future maintainability.

 

In case it's not obvious this is a local setup with no requirement for constant internet access - though of course to get updates etc you will want to have this from time to time. 

 

Another nice feature of this approach is that for light switches you can choose pretty much anything (best with retractive switches). You can also of course have key areas as part of the "system" but others with simpler requirements just operating on their own as regular light switch controls - BUT still use the same switches on these as well so it all looks the same.

 

I did start another thread on a very similar topic just a few down the list here which may have some additional helpful info.

 

Wiring - this type of approach can either be "regular" where you have the wireless comms/control unit fitted behind the light switch  or have 1 or more central wiring points where the switch control units all sit together - that allows easier maintenance of things if needed. 

 

I make sure now that everything is POE . Easy to build in on a new build . Cat5 everywhere ! ?

[PeterW]

6 hours ago, pocster said:

I make sure now that everything is POE . Easy to build in on a new build . Cat5 everywhere ! ?

 

But which standard ..?? I’ve seen loads of PoE cameras that turn out to need 12v not 48v, and there is an injector and splitter with each camera. They are essentially using the spare pairs for 12v but doesn’t help me when I have 48v PoE switches. 

[Temp]

Didn't know there are two versions/voltages. I went for Hikvision POE cameras and a 8 port hub with built in POE support, hooked them up and they worked, no injectors or strippers.

 

If doing so again I think I would investigate cameras with an alarm input and use a separate PIR sensor to trigger recording because motion detection either in the camera or server has problems.

 

Possibily also separate IR illuminators  to try and draw spiders away from the camera?

[Pocster]

11 hours ago, PeterW said:

 

But which standard ..?? I’ve seen loads of PoE cameras that turn out to need 12v not 48v, and there is an injector and splitter with each camera. They are essentially using the spare pairs for 12v but doesn’t help me when I have 48v PoE switches. 

I think 802 ( whatever ) f is the latest . 48v

but I think 802.bt will allow 100w !! 

Poe lighting on the way ! ?