Bit of a rant!

[LA3222]

So, got into a conversation with a neighbour earlier who to be honest came across as a right bawbag, but in the interests of maintaining friendly relations I engaged in polite small talk - wish I hadn't! 

 

He tells me "I'm in the trade" oh I think, one of them.  Asks the question everyone seems to ask, "have you got a builder", no I says, I'm doing the build in stages I.e. foundations by x, timber frame by y and so on.  I intend to manage the build myself all the while thinking "I'm not having a builder because I don't trust them as far as I can throw em and the vibe you give off tells me I'm right".  

 

Mention I intend to have a passive raft....get a withering look, so ask if he is familiar with passive standards and get a disparaging "I'm in the trade" response and then cue lots of it will cost a fortune yada yada. 

 

Ok , I think - whatever.

 

Then subject of heating comes up as no gas here.  Said I'm going all electric, no oil for this call sign - cue more withering looks followed by it will cost a fortune.  Err, not if I insulate the hell out of the house and pay attention to details where air tightness is concerned.

 

"Won't work he tells me.  I built a house, put solar malarky on it and then had to put a 5kw wood stove in to pass SAP" he tells me.

 

This conversation was both pissing me off and depressing at the same time.  Cue more, it"'ll cost a fortune to build.

 

At this point I politely left.  Won t be speaking to him again.

 

For what it's worth,I will have a passive slab and only electric.  No stove for me and bollocks to those "experts" who ain't bothered to move with the times.

 

And ultimately, the house costs what it costs.  I am not buildi g to sell or make a profit so screw the lot of them.

 

I hate speaki g to people about the build when they have nothing good to say and can only critisize...its depressing so "bugger orf!"

 

Rant over.

 

Peace out.

[Cpd]

The world is full of armchair critics who seem to love wallowing in doom and gloom and only ever focusing on the negative, I avoid these people like the plague. Don’t let them into your head , never mind your garden ! 

[ProDave]

So, devils advocate here, you are having an "all electric" well insulated house. How will you heat the house and hot water? What thought have you put into it so far?

[ToughButterCup]

9 hours ago, LA3222 said:

[...]

I hate speaking to people about the build when they have nothing good to say and can only critisize

[...]

 

If the criticism  is thoughtful and skillfully expressed, then ..... but mostly it isn't.  Its  an unkind way of expressing a hidden agenda. 

Its also a very useful filter.

[LA3222]

9 hours ago, ProDave said:

So, devils advocate here, you are having an "all electric" well insulated house. How will you heat the house and hot water? What thought have you put into it so far?

I'm aiming towards passive standards so I would like to think space heating demands are low.  Will use UFH on both floors, SunAmp for DHW demands.  Not sure how I'm going to power the UFH yet, either ASHP or from one of the newer SunAmp which I believe can do both UFH and DHW.

As many solar panels as I can fit in the house/garage roofs, and now the FIT is going I will look at battery storage. 

 

I haven't crunched any actual numbers yet - just a plan of attack that I have in mind.     

[Triassic]

I regularly find suppliers doing that 'sucking air through their teeth' thing, ooh a self-builder with lots of money to spend, oooh where is my nieve muppet price list!!

 

For example. When I started my self-build 4 years ago, I took my architects drawings into Travis Perkins, I sat down with the branch manager and he gave me the whole blurb about what great deals they could do for a self-builder and to leave a set of drawings with him and he'd get his QS and once he'd priced it up I'd get fantastic trade prices! Four years later I still waiting for him to get back to me, however, I did get a Trade Card, it's quite good for applying filler, I also use it in winter to remove ice from my car windscreen.

 

I've been in the local branch twice in that four years, presented my trade card and enquired about the price of something. I each case the TP price was at least double what I eventually paid elsewhere locally, internet prices are usually best.

[joe90]

17 minutes ago, Triassic said:

I regularly find suppliers doing that 'sucking air through their teeth' thing, ooh a self-builder with lots of money to spend, oooh where is my nieve muppet price list!!

 

I made a point of telling everyone (even the postman) that I was on a tight budget and therefore had to do a lot myself, it brought out the best in most people.

[Red2000]

Have you noticed that some people's reaction to someone doing something new or creative or different is "wotchawannadothatfor?"  Completely off topic but here's a little anecdote...

 

I went up to the counter of a sports supplier a couple of years ago and asked the assistant for a particular piece of equipment.  "What's it for?" was the reply.  I secretly wanted to say "None of your effing business, mate" but I was polite and told him.  Then another character who was leaning against the counter put his oar in and gave me the benefit of his knowledge, telling me that what I was trying to do would never work.  I said thank you but I still would like those particular goods...please.  However, they insisted on trying to tell me that I didn't know what I was talking about, it would never work, etc.  Eventually I had had enough and had secret delight in informing them that if they would like to look inside a magazine that happened to be on the counter, they would find an article by me describing how my team had just set a world record in that particular sport and thanks for the advice but could I please have what I came in for.  Needless to say, that shut them up good and proper.  Innovators of the world - rise up, and tell these naysayers to get lost!

[Ed Davies]

I don't think I've had more than ten minutes conversation with any building “professional” who hasn't said something which some understanding of basic physics and a little reading round the subject hasn't told me is complete nonsense. Not that I haven't learned a lot from those conversations, too, but it all needs to be carefully filtered.

 

The fundamental problem, I think, is that for traditional reasons building is an illiterate business. Not that builders (necessarily) can't read or write but that it's not the normal way of working unlike almost all other branches of engineering. Instead information is passed on by word of mouth when people are often in a hurry so the what and how gets communicated but not the why with the consequence that people don't have the background to extrapolate beyond the specific methods they've been shown. They're aware of this at some level which puts them on the defensive.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Ed Davies

[Triassic]

10 minutes ago, Ed Davies said:

The fundamental problem, I think, is that for traditional reasons building is an illiterate business. Not that builders (necessarily) can't read or write

I worked on major chemical plant construction projects for about ten years. Each day started with a team talk and signing various Permits to Work. I'd noticed a few people asked lots of questions before signing. This got the safety team thinking and doing some research we found that around 10% of the workforce were functionally illiterate and in many cases could not read the Permit to Work, or the job method statements, and would rely on others for verbal instructions and guidance. That's not so say they weren't cracking workers, some were master craftsmen in their particular area of expertise. 

 

If you can't read technical publications and or write with sufficient confidence to take part in technical discussion forums, how are you to learn?

[MikeSharp01]

I have just had a builder move into a house 3 doors down, he and I get on well I think. I have encouraged him to join us on BH so he may already be earwigging. He is knocking down and starting again and is doing it - in my view, one of the right ways as he has employed an architect as a starting point. He seems to understand the Passive slab system and was concerned about how much of it I was doing myself but was happy to offer me a hand if ever I needed one, he is very neighborly in my view. So there are some out there who get it and his literacy is definitely not in question.

 

19 minutes ago, Triassic said:

If you can't read technical publications and or write with sufficient confidence to take part in technical discussion forums, how are you to learn?

You clearly can learn but the ceiling is very low because without a basic understanding of, as Ed for instance says, Physics and many other things your capacity to do other than work in a very narrow trench - pardon the pun, is limited. Sadly, as a nation, we have yet to work out that we need raise the floor on educating everyone, including engineers, architects, designers and managers in the construction industry. That way we can build better buildings using autonomous and free thinking - open minded practitioners who don't need to be driven to follow what they all to often think of as 'mad self builders' who, although playing the part of the early adopters of many of these innovations, want very good buildings with great energy credentials. Perhaps then, one day, all buildings will be like this or even better.

[Jeremy Harris]

I believe that a part of the problem is that the building industry isn't really an entity, in that the majority of the tradespeople working in it will be either self-employed or on short term contracts.  The incentive just isn't there for most of these people to take time out from earning a living to go and learn new skills, or acquire an understanding of new construction methods.

 

We've seen a few examples here where the only way new knowledge is acquired is at the expense of a customer.  @recoveringacademic s experience with Durisol is a good example.  The other incentive to learn about new methods of construction seems to be regulatory/economic, when the only way to be able to continue to run a business is to get ahead of tightening regulatory requirements. 

 

An example of this is what's happening/has happened in Ireland, where the government tightened regulation, (because they had experienced some REALLY bad construction standards during the boom) and the companies and people that have stayed in business, or seen their business grow, are those that had got ahead of the regulations by coming up with methods of construction that met the new requirements without a massive cost premium.  I don't think it's in any way accidental that there seems to be a fairly wide range of Irish methods and materials finding their way into new builds.

[the_r_sole]

.

Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[Red2000]

We were very lucky with our builders and I think that overall they were pretty good, dedicated people who were genuinely proud of their work.  My only complaint about them is that they didn't want to learn anything new.  They didn't even want to introduce standard processes which would save them countless time and money in the long run.  They were not stupid - I just think it's a building-industry-culture thing...if it isn't something they have done before then they aren't interested in learning about it.  The building industry is living in the past and that's why simple improvements to the way that buildings are constructed take absolutely ages to be adopted - if at all.  Contrast this with the IT industry.  The entire approach is different.  If an IT developer is doing the same thing the same way they were it doing 5 years ago they'd be regarded as a dinosaur.

[joe90]

As I have said here before I am really lucky with my builder, very willing to learn new things and up to speed already on most things.

[ToughButterCup]

On 05/10/2018 at 09:56, Ed Davies said:

... 

The fundamental problem, I think, is that for traditional reasons building is an illiterate business. Not that builders (necessarily) can't read or write but that it's not the normal way of working unlike almost all other branches of engineering.

....

As written that's unkind. And I'm sure you don't mean to be. 

 

The fundamental issue is parity of esteem. Qualified German builders are held in high regard. As are their trainees. What irks me is the key role the British had in designing the training regime at the end of the war. 

 

[ProDave]

15 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

As written that's unkind. And I'm sure you don't mean to be. 

 

The fundamental issue is parity of esteem. Qualified German builders are held in high regard. As are their trainees. What irks me is the key role the British had in designing the training regime at the end of the war. 

 

I worked for a while with some German Joiners, who wore their traditional uniforms and told me a lot about their training, including a lot of travel. Very different to what happens here.

[Triassic]

13 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

As written that's unkind. And I'm sure you don't mean to be. 

 

The fundamental issue is parity of esteem. Qualified German builders are held in high regard. As are their trainees. 

 

Do we still have a training scheme in the UK? I very very rairly see an apprentice. There was a leaflet pinned up on the trade side at Screwfix from a first year apprentice looking for someone to take him on. I asked what the score was and was told his original employer had decided it was too much trouble keeping him on into his second and third year.

 

[Bitpipe]

1 hour ago, recoveringacademic said:

As written that's unkind. And I'm sure you don't mean to be. 

 

The fundamental issue is parity of esteem. Qualified German builders are held in high regard. As are their trainees. What irks me is the key role the British had in designing the training regime at the end of the war. 

 

 

Also the title 'Engineer' is protected in Germany, like Doctor here. Narks me when I'm told that 'we'll send an engineer' - always want to ask what type of engineering degree they have...

 

  

[curlewhouse]

On 05/10/2018 at 09:01, joe90 said:

 

I made a point of telling everyone (even the postman) that I was on a tight budget and therefore had to do a lot myself, it brought out the best in most people.

Snap. Ive tried to do it without sounding as if I'm just being mean, but I made a.point of telling builders etc from the start that "unlike Grand Designs" I've no extra money - not £1000, not £100, but I could stretch to 50p over your quoted price at a push ?.  I call the idea that all self builders have a secret £100k in their back pocket "the grand designs effect" - as the folks shown on there always seem to pull money out of thin air whem overbudget and I honestly think it's led to various people thinking we can all do that (and therefore they want a slice). 

[Bitpipe]

Having a very ropey car and dressing like a tramp also helps  - living in an onsite caravan adds to the effect (i.e. - if we had money do you not think we'd be living somewhere nicer...)

 

On the GD theme, I though this week's was refreshing as when they had 1/2 the budget of the admittedly beautiful original design, they went back to drawing board and designed something that actually met their budget - have to admit, I think it still looked great.

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2018 by Bitpipe

[daiking]

22 minutes ago, curlewhouse said:

Snap. Ive tried to do it without sounding as if I'm just being mean, but I made a.point of telling builders etc from the start that "unlike Grand Designs" I've no extra money - not £1000, not £100, but I could stretch to 50p over your quoted price at a push ?.  I call the idea that all self builders have a secret £100k in their back pocket "the grand designs effect" - as the folks shown on there always seem to pull money out of thin air whem overbudget and I honestly think it's led to various people thinking we can all do that (and therefore they want a slice). 

 

6 minutes ago, Bitpipe said:

Having a very ropey car and dressing like a tramp also helps  - living in an onsite caravan adds to the effect (i.e. - if we had money do you not think we'd be living somewhere nicer...)

 

On the GD theme, I though this week's was refreshing as when they had 1/2 the budget of the admittedly beautiful original design, they went back to drawing board and designed something that actually met their budget - have to admit, I think it still looked great.

 

 

 

 

None of that has ever worked for me. You start out with an acceptable price and then they **** off when they’ve ****ed it up.

 

now I have no choice but to drive a shit heap and dress in tramp’s cast offs.

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, daiking said:

[...]

and then they **** off when they’ve ****ed it up.

[...] 

 

Or get told to go away in short  rhythmic jerks. 

The Full On DIY experience is almost as painful, just as slow and costs far less. 1000 times more fun. 

I could not contemplate DIY without knowing BH is just a few clicks away. 

 

[vivienz]

I wouldn't even have attempted the amount that I do without BH.  There's just so much scope for problems to occur even without being hands on.

[Gone West]

On 05/10/2018 at 09:01, joe90 said:

 

I made a point of telling everyone (even the postman) that I was on a tight budget and therefore had to do a lot myself, it brought out the best in most people.

I think the people around here have sussed that our house was built on a budget as they've seen us slaving away for eight years building it and now another three months dismantling the old bungalow by hand. Wendy says having an eleven year old car in the drive also shows we're not in the GD league.