I demolished your house, but I'm not moving the debris!

[Gone West]

19 minutes ago, Triassic said:

The one lesson I’ve learnt is to be very wary of anyone who does not come recommended.

Even the recommended ones sometimes come with cautionary tales.

I asked @MikeSharp01 if he could recommend an asbestos removal company which he kindly did and he added that there were things they didn't do. When I asked them to quote I listed the things Mike said as well as every possible aspect of the removal I could think of and got it in writing. Fortunately it went smoothly.

[Jeremy Harris]

I think the reason that some of us (well, certainly me) tend to relate cautionary tales that point out that, as a self-builder, you really need to watch everyone and everything all the time, is because we've been caught out ourselves, and are kicking ourselves about it.  I really hate to see other people get caught out the same way, and my hope is that by relating cautionary tales the word will get out and more people will be aware of the things they need to watch out for.

 

I doubt anyone here hasn't had a screw up that could have been prevented if they were better informed and had taken the time to learn a bit more about the way things are done.  Take my borehole saga as a classic example - I failed miserably in so many areas when overseeing that work that it cost me a load of money and perhaps a year of delay in total.  With the benefit of hindsight none of those failings should have happened, I should have been sufficiently on the ball to spot them and stop them happening, but I wasn't.  I only acquired the knowledge I needed to oversee a borehole being drilled and cleaned AFTER the work was done and the problem needed fixing.

 

@Triassics comment about being wary of anyone that doesn't come recommended is spot on.  On our build the only problems were with contractors/suppliers that didn't come by some form of personal recommendation.

 

I'm not sure how we better improve the way we communicate here - it's made harder because purely written communication in an informal style, like posts here, are always going to be open to interpretation as to the posters true meaning.  As @recoveringacademic noted, some of us post here when we are angry, depressed, overjoyed, even "under the weather", so that is bound to colour our phraseology, much as we might wish it didn't.

[vivienz]

If you're inexperienced in the world of self-build, as I am, then it's very easy to overlook things that simply don't pop up on your radar in time because there are so many other new things to think about.

 

Disposing of stuff from site is, in my experience, a significant cost and one that can alter how a build is approached.  My own build is a perfect example of this.  Because I'm on clay, I had a choice of how to do the foundations for my house - either a massive (down to nearly 3m) reduced dig, or 800mm reduced dig and piles.  At first, I was going to go down the reduced dig route because I could understand this and was terrified of what piles might involve.  In the end I went for the latter because the cost of disposing of all the clay from a 3m reduced dig for the entire footprint of my house would have been crippling and around x3 the cost of the piles, let alone the time cost.

 

Likewise, when we had the existing bungalow on the site demolished, the disposal of the debris was a significant part of the bill for that stage of the work.  There was little to be salvaged from it, a few bricks and the roof rafters for use in the garden, but the rest of it all had to go to landfill, along with the reinforced concrete panels that had made up the garage block.

 

Even now that we're in the construction phase, there will still be more disposal costs.  I'll need at least a couple of skips just to clear away all the general crap, there's left over EPS hanging around that can't be re-used and will need to be chucked.  After that, there's all the concrete and hardcore that has gone down to increase the hard standing area for all the works traffic and, finally, the concrete floor of the former garage block that we also use for hard standing and that has the site cabin and portaloo on it.  Quite literally, tons of crap, and not to be forgotten about when it comes to totting up the bills.

 

[jack]

46 minutes ago, newhome said:

The only thing we have is the power not to pay them, assuming we didn’t pay up front so maybe that’s the way to negotiate here?  

 

The worst contractor we had onsite, and the only one we ended up sacking 10% of the way through their job, was the outfit that did our brick slips. They were recommended by the company that supplied the brick slips and backing system, but in the end the people who did the work were basically labourers rather than the brickies that were promised. I've said on BH before that a bright 8 year old would have done a better job.

 

I broached the subject of quality with them, reasonably forcefully the second time, even going so far as to offer to increase the fixed price to ensure they had the time to do the job properly. Despite assurances that the work would improve, in the end we had to let them go, which we did via text exchange on a Sunday night. They agreed it was the best thing, then in the next text told me how much we owed them (quite a lot, apparently!) for the work to date. Bearing in mind I was going to have to pay someone to undo the pile of shite that they'd left us with, I asked them to give me a breakdown of how they'd come to this amount, only to get a threateningly aggressive text saying that we knew what their day rates were (we didn't - it was a fixed price job), and to pay up immediately. 

 

Didn't sleep much that night. Got some advice from a family friend who's an ex builder turned project manager for big projects up in London: pay them and move on. The last thing you want is more stress over a few hundred quid. Even if you get them to reduce their costs slightly, you could still arrive onsite one morning to find a tin of gloss paint slung over your new windows and doors (this had happened to him on a job).

 

Long story short: even owing someone money is no guarantee that you're in the driver's seat. Even if you can avoid paying them, you can still lose money, because you'll need to pay extra to undo the bad work, then possibly pay someone more to come in on an urgent basis to do the job right.

 

48 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

I think the reason that some of us (well, certainly me) tend to relate cautionary tales that point out that, as a self-builder, you really need to watch everyone and everything all the time, is because we've been caught out ourselves, and are kicking ourselves about it.  I really hate to see other people get caught out the same way, and my hope is that by relating cautionary tales the word will get out and more people will be aware of the things they need to watch out for.

 

Before we started the build, I'd read everything you'd said about yours. I remember feeling that by just following your lead we could avoid making any mistakes. Oh how long ago that feeling seems! 

[epsilonGreedy]

15 hours ago, Cpd said:

Without a written contract of what was agreed  you don’t have a leg to stand on. Sounds like “poor planning” = “poor results”  no disrespect intended.

 

 

There is a contract. Offer, acceptance and engagement has taken place and so a contract is in effect.

 

The OP tells us:

 

16 hours ago, laurenco said:

They priced to demolish, level and site scrape. But not to remove the mountain of bricks and concrete which may or may not have all sorts of old brass chandeliers glinting in the sunlight.

 

 

Did they specifically mention a mountain of bricks would be left onsite? Probably not hence the OP's outrage.

 

In a small claims Court I think it would be possible to construct an argument that it is impossible to "level and site scrape" without removing the a mountain of rubble left over from the demolition.

 

The contractor is clearly a sharp operator who hoped that not mentioning the elephant in the room would result in an unfair commercial win. The court would recognize this and the default contract provides enough linguistic opportunity for a hostile magistrate to find in favour of the OP.

 

p.s. I have no legal training.

 

p.s.2. If the contractor offered "oversite scrape" I think this would sustantially weaken the claim.

Edited August 23, 2018 by epsilonGreedy

[Jeremy Harris]

The biggest problem with the domestic construction industry as a whole is that they rarely seem to have much in the way of any formal contractual procedure.  Sure, a contract exists, simply because an offer has been made, accepted and a consideration has been exchanged, but it's rare to get a proper written contract, with clear and unambiguous terms and conditions, I think.  This lack of any formal specification, terms and conditions, etc, works in the favour of contractors looking to quote the lowest price.  They leave out the expensive stuff, like disposal of waste, so their quote looks good value.  I know that we've paid out well in excess of £10k for waste disposal during our build, probably closer to £12k.  Just getting rid of the spoil from the ground works was well over £9k, then we had at least three skips at around £260 a time, plus another two or three grab lorry loads taken away later at several hundred pounds a load, including land fill tax.

 

The majority of domestic building work seems to be undertaken on the basis of a pretty slap-dash informal quotation and acceptance form of contract, more often than not lacking in pretty much all the key critical detail.  I guess this is just the way that the domestic construction sector has evolved, but I know that we've spent thousands with contractors with little more than a very rough and ready outline of the specification of the work, and almost always without enough detail to be able to determine whether any specific item was or was not included in the original quotation.

 

After a while you get to know how some operate; for example the chap we always use to do any landscaping related work has a personal policy of removing all rubbish and waste from the site when he's finished.  It's memorable, because he's the ONLY contractor we've ever had on site that has such a policy!  It's not written down anywhere, and nine times out of ten specs and quotations from him are verbal, or just a sketch plan and some notes, but we've worked with him enough times to know that we'll get a very good job and he'll leave things very neat and tidy when he's finished.

[Declan52]

Doing a self build is a massive learning curve no matter what your background is. It will all be chugging along sweet as pie and you will be walking about like a proud peacock thinking you have the job under control and then along comes an issue that you never seen due to your lack on experience. This could be as simple as not having some materials delivered on time to not having the terms of what the job consisted of fully laid out and wham bang your running around like a headless chicken trying to figure out a solution. It happens and will always happen as people make mistakes. Some take the piss and others like what seems here are clearly taking advantage of an inexperienced self builder.

Either the contract was for the removal of the demolition spoil or it wasn't. If it was then you would expect it to include everything to be removed. If it wasn't then all the valuable stuff that has been taken then needs to come back. But if there was no actual written contract stating what was and what wasn't too be done then who is right and wrong. 

The self builder for not providing a list of what was to be done or the demolition company who probably knew they where dealing with a novice and not asking what was expected of them. The answer  in my opinion is somewhere in the middle where both parties have to shoulder some of the blame.

[ToughButterCup]

2 hours ago, newhome said:

[...]

The only thing we have is the power not to pay them, assuming we didn’t pay up front so maybe that’s the way to negotiate here? 

[...]

 

That's regrettably my conclusion too. Had to do it twice so far, and another one bubbling away quietly on the back burner. 

[Ferdinand]

Hi @laurenco

 

Sorry to hear of this problem.

 

1 - I am not aware that there is a "norm" - because a lot of self-builders do a lot of different things, and may plan for example for much soil to be left behind to reprofile the site a a way of saving budget.

 

2 - It is true that "verbal contracts" do exist, they leave a lot of scope  even more scope for ambiguity and different interpretations than written contracts, and it is very difficult and/or expensive to resolve these. And, in the end, it comes down to I-said-you-said.

 

 3 - You may have been the victim of their sharp practice plus your inexperience in someone deliberately not pointing out something they suspected you did not know, and you not knowing it. Another example - how many of us think about the value of weighing in the pipes and water tanks from a heating system which is being replaced (can be worth hundreds) or the value of logs from a felled tree.

 

4 - In the end though, that is a borderline though normal tactic, which we all use at times. I am sure that we are all more enthsiastic in pointing out price-reducing factors in plot prices, than admitting that we have found xyz document in the planning file that will potentially save us £20k, and means we could actually pay more.

 

5 - There are various ways of helping to deal with it - involving professionals (eg PM), or books, or informal mentors, or going slowly enough to accumulate the experience (or as you are already a Chartered Surveyor with I assume substantial experience so perhaps complementary experience is what you need to be after).

 

I think my most helpful suggestion is at granny-sucking-eggs level. I think there will not be much comeback on this unless you persuade them to do it free or at a reduced price by asking nicely or threats (reduce payment). I think it may be 'make the best of it and sweat the detail all the other times', while focusing on those areas which are outside your existing professional experience.

 

Can you find a buildhubber locally further down the track and offer pub-lunch-and-sanity-check every so often? I think we all like being taken out to lunch.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited August 23, 2018 by Ferdinand

[ToughButterCup]

2 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

[...]

There are various ways of helping to deal with it - involving professionals (eg PM), or books,

[...]

 

Good post F.

Nudged me into looking it up in SPONS

 

Here's the relevant entry 

[Ferdinand]

2 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

 

Good post F.

Nudged me into looking it up in SPONS

 

Here's the relevant entry 

 

It doesn't say whether that includes taking away the rubble , even in the blurb at the top.

 

So presumably that is considered to be a separate operation.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Ferdinand

[ToughButterCup]

1 minute ago, Ferdinand said:

[...]

So presumably that is considered to be a separate operation.

 

Yes.

Caveat Emptor.

[newhome]

I think if you work in IT like many seem to do on this forum the approach to managing work is much more disciplined than it seems to be in the building industry. Contracts are put in place if using a third party, requirements are gathered and signed off, design documents and test plans are signed off, build is completed etc etc. Does that rigour mean that things go swimmingly? Do they ‘eck as like! Those processes hopefully help drive down the risk of things going wrong but they never remove it completely. Life isn’t a box of chocolates, and sh1t happens and continues to happen. The “unexpected, could realistically never have been expected” things happen. You can’t mitigate every single risk so we have to accept that things will go wrong just as they do in nearly every project. 

 

In self building add into the mix the fact that for most people we don’t have full lifecycle experience of building a house yet many of us still decide to manage our own build. Even if you were to plan everything to the nth degree most builders won’t look at such things or even recognise a Gantt chart, so we can only do our best. As @recoveringacademic has found the response is often, ‘nah we don’t do it like that mate’. Sigh. 

 

I cover relationship management as part of my day job and one of the things I always say is that if you continually pick at details in the contract and fire those at the other side then something is wrong in that relationship. That’s not to say that never happens even when the relationship is mature and working well, but it’s a sign of issues emerging if contract gazing is the modus operandi. The issue is that it takes a while to build up a relationship and understand how each side operates yet for building there really isn’t a lot of time to mature the relationship as builders are in and out so it’s doubly difficult. 

 

[Ferdinand]

 I think we need to roll out Rumsfeld again:

 

"Donald Rumsfeld stated:

Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_known_knowns

Applies verbatim to self-build - the expensive bits are the things we discover later that we did not know at first, which is why everyone obsesses with what is underground.

 

See also The Parable of the Oil Pipeline in the Wrong Place. Here the neighbour not the buildhubber took the hit, 'cos it wasn't where the Planning Documents told him, and he had to redesign his house iirc.

 

I wonder if we need to use such a high-level KUKU grid in out Project Planning?

 

F

 

Edited August 23, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

38 minutes ago, newhome said:

continually pick at details in the contract and fire those at the other side then something is wrong in that relationship

 

But that technique has value as a checking or audit tool. Pick a random sample of a few detailed points and a couple that catch your attention  and follow them to the bottom of the rabbithole.

 

It needs a surprisingly small sample to give a decent level of competence.

 

I learnt this when I started off an MSc in something called "Software Reliabilty", which was even more mathematically painful than my Engineering Degree. It finally proved that my brain is bent differently to that necessary for abstruse mathematics, so I got out. Like trying to learn AutoCad after using Windows for 25 years.

F

Edited August 23, 2018 by Ferdinand
could changed to couple: bleedin' autocomplete.....

[ToughButterCup]

2 minutes ago, newhome said:

[...]

but it’s a sign of issues emerging if contract gazing is the modus operandi. 

[...]

 

Bang on.

I often wonder about the extent to which problematic site-based issues are a proxy for other hidden agendas. Something as simple as tiredness can make for unwise emphasis. And the sheer grind of self-building saps every last ounce of energy out of us.

 

There's nothing more engaging and healing than a smile and a bit of kindness - coupled with simple plain speaking. But that takes more courage than I have sometimes.

As for unknown unknowns: thats what BH is for innit?

[Ferdinand]

3 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

As for unknown unknowns: thats what BH is for innit?

 

Er .. dunno ?

[epsilonGreedy]

31 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

The majority of domestic building work seems to be undertaken on the basis of a pretty slap-dash informal quotation and acceptance form of contract, more often than not lacking in pretty much all the key critical detail.  I guess this is just the way that the domestic construction sector has evolved, but I know that we've spent thousands with contractors with little more than a very rough and ready outline of the specification of the work, and almost always without enough detail to be able to determine whether any specific item was or was not included in the original quotation.

 

 

Contract informality has worked in my favour so far. I changed my foundation trench plan 12 hours before dig day which involved 11 meters of extra trench, the contractor did not charge for this probably because the whole job went smoothly and he was able to wrap up a few hours early.

 

My plot seller did not take away 100% of the dig spoil as agreed but I did not hold him to that because extra soil was dug out. Later my self build neighbour needed some soil to build up his hedging bunds so I let him take away 6 m3. My plot seller passes by weekly for a chat and probably wonders why his crew did not take away more spoil, and so when I phone him in a few weeks to borrow a telehandler for a few hours to shift my floor beams I reckon the price will be soft.

 

Informality allows on the ground workers to engage in spontaneous cooperation that is not seen on the HQ executive radar. My foul drain contractor got fed up waiting for the water company crew to arrive so he started digging next to where he thought they should dig into the road. The crew turned up and were happy to follow until they realized their digger could not reach down to the mains sewer, so my man loaned his larger digger to dissuade them from abandoning the job that day.

 

In the software world such tactical cooperation would take a 50 page power point slide deck and a hoard of IT management committee room lounge lizards to approve.

[Jeremy Harris]

16 minutes ago, newhome said:

I cover relationship management as part of my day job and one of the things I always say is that if you continually pick at details in the contract and fire those at the other side then something is wrong in that relationship. That’s not to say that never happens even when the relationship is mature and working well, but it’s a sign of issues emerging if contract gazing is the modus operandi. The issue is that it takes a while to build up a relationship and understand how each side operates yet for building there really isn’t a lot of time to mature the relationship as builders are in and out so it’s doubly difficult. 

 

 

When I was working I had a golden rule with regards to contracting.  It was get the contract right at the start, then you will never need to look at it ever again.  Once a relationship has broken down to the point where one or other side keeps referring to the terms of the contract, then things are usually doomed and both sides will end up losing.

[daiking]

5 hours ago, Declan52 said:

The answer  in my opinion is somewhere in the middle where both parties have to shoulder some of the blame.

 

Quite simply, most clients are idiots and most contractors are c**ks.

 

The constant forum retorts for numerous different issues regarding “If it’s not written down...” are a self fulfilling chant to justify the existence of this community.

 

what does @laurenco need to do now? Re-engage the same company to bring their machines back to load up the waste for disposal? Extra unnecessary cost on top of the disposal or pay someone else to do the some wasteful operation when it should have been done all together with some sort of economy of scale or without duplicating effort?

 

 

[Declan52]

2 minutes ago, daiking said:

 

Quite simply, most clients are idiots and most contractors are c***s.

 

The constant forum retorts for numerous different issues regarding “If it’s not written down...” are a self fulfilling chant to justify the existence of this community.

 

what does @laurenco need to do now? Re-engage the same company to bring their machines back to load up the waste for disposal? Extra unnecessary cost on top of the disposal or pay someone else to do the some wasteful operation when it should have been done all together with some sort of economy of scale or without duplicating effort?

 

 

Think you need to take a breath and ditch the name calling statements. If you don't like reading what is being said on this forum then it's a fairly easy thing to fix.

Having been on both sides of the fence I always liked jobs where it was laid out in plain English what was to be done by me and what wasn't. It cuts out the constant back and forth of what about this bit and that bit.

When it was my time to do my build I was always upfront of what I wanted the particular trade to do and what they didn't need to do. 

How would you expect a plumber or spark to price up a job fully if you don't include exactly what you are looking him to do. That's the basis of the contract. When you get the price back written down then that should be your written contract. It's then up to you to go through this and see if it suits what you are looking for. 

As for what @laurenco needs to do that's up to him. I would be going through whatever emails, texts etc to see what was asked for and what the demolition companys answers where. Then take it from there. I have already said that I think they have took advantage of him. Either it was all the waste or none of the waste. Definitely not leave all the useless stuff and take the valuable scrap.

 

[ToughButterCup]

25 minutes ago, daiking said:

[...]

what does @laurenco need to do now?

[...]

 

There's ample evidence-based and experience-based advice on this thread.  

[newhome]

1 hour ago, epsilonGreedy said:

In the software world such tactical cooperation would take a 50 page power point slide deck and a hoard of IT management committee room lounge lizards to approve.

 

Nope, not if it’s done via relationship management rather than picking at contracts. I often get cooperation from my suppliers without needing any form of contract change. It works both ways though and I have to be prepared to give in return. That might be something as easy as acting as a reference site and meeting one of their potential clients. If the relationship is good I have no issue with doing something like that. A small thing for me to do but a big win for them if they secure a new client. 

[laurenco]

Okay, I agreed to split the weigh-in of the copper roof, so got £1,900 back for that. The rest—wood and whatnot—he could have. Re: the broken up slab mountain, I've done a deal with him to remove the excess debris for £85 a load. It's cheap I know, but it's also open to exploitation; is the truck the size of a small wheelbarrow? will they fill each truck completely? and will they be entirely honest about how many trips they take to dispose of it. The only way to find out is to put on my wellies, set up camp, and watch  ?  So that is what I'm going to do...

[laurenco]

1 hour ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

Contract informality has worked in my favour so far. I changed my foundation trench plan 12 hours before dig day which involved 11 meters of extra trench, the contractor did not charge for this probably because the whole job went smoothly and he was able to wrap up a few hours early.

 

My plot seller did not take away 100% of the dig spoil as agreed but I did not hold him to that because extra soil was dug out. Later my self build neighbour needed some soil to build up his hedging bunds so I let him take away 6 m3. 

 

@epsilonGreedy sounds like you dealt with a logical guy, which is a rarity in the building trade