Was I right to sack the builder?

[Yzzy]

OK so I hired a builder to rip off and replace a flat roof on my conservatory / family room, I'll call him G. I have a new builder M who instantly condemned the whole structure and ripped it all down to rebuild due to it being structurally unsafe. Caused by rotting of the window frames and also where G had reversed a small digger into the building causing all the piers to crack and shift. The extension wasn't actually knitted in to the house (not sure of the correct term?) so that should have been a big sign according to M for G to STOP and not do the flat roof. 

 

 I won't go into detail of the the rest of his mucking about and failings but will start from day two of his 'effort' on the flat roof. 

 

He said he was going home and I went to have a look at his work.

 

The pier next to the house had a huge threaded bolt sticking out of it.

I asked why and he said "When I pushed the boarding against the other wall on the roof, that pier pushed out by about a foot, I had to push it back as far as I could get it. It's ok though, that's not going anywhere, I'll cut the end off and it will be fine"

 

 

He then left shoved a plank of 'summer house' paneling under the wood frame "That'll be safe Yz no worries!" and left the building...  and I set to inspecting the rest of his work. Baring in mind he said all he had to do was come back and felt the roof this is what I found.

 

The boarding he used was shutter ply, I had asked him to use OSB. The shutter ply got very wet over the next few days and rotted.

 

He had bent the joist brackets behind the wall fixing plank instead of fixing them to the wall as M has said he should have done. G NAILED the brackets with thhe nails in the photo below. He only put 4 nails in each bracket.

 

There were also 3 threaded bolts going through the wall board into the main house but they were not fixed in and easily pulled out. 

 

Anyway, I didn't like any of the work, the fact the pier was held in place by a bolt and the way everything looked wonky, huge gaps over the windows and wrong boarding made me call a new builder.

 

M walked in and the first thing he said was the wooden window frames were rotten and he pulled a chunk out, he said NOTHING should be built on those frames as they will collapse under the weight.

 

M then looked at all three piers and said they were all fractured and pushed to the north. I said G had reversed a mini digger into the south-west pier and he said that is what would have done it and NO WORK should have been done on those piers. 

 

He completely ripped apart how G had built the frame too pointing out so many faults it was starting to make me feel sick. He said the nails G had used to hold the joists up on the brackets were for flashing and would not have held the roof up for long at all. Meaning it would have come crashing down on us. 

 

The joists were twisted and not level, they were running the wrong way and well... the list goes on.

 

So I sacked G and asked him to return the money I had paid him for materials. G is saying he can't refund me as he did by materials totaling £168 (8 untreated CLS, 2 shheets of shutter ply, 8 joist hangers, a couple of threaded bolts and a handful of nails!!)

 

G also says he needs 2 days labour from the money - £130 a day (he spent 4 hours one day and 5 the next)

 

I have said he can have £130 for labour and £170 for materials and want the rest back. I think I am being more than generous considering EVERYTHING has been demolished and rebuilt from foundations up. 

 

Some photos of G's work below.

 

 

[AliMcLeod]

I'm no building expert, but if things are as bad as you (and M) say, then I'd not be paying him a penny for this work and be thankful for getting away with just the £170 you've paid him for materials. Tell him to take you to court if he wants any more.

Edited August 20, 2018 by AliMcLeod

[Yzzy]

9 minutes ago, AliMcLeod said:

I'm no building expert, but if things are as bad as you (and M) say, then I'd not be paying him a penny for this work and be thankful for getting away with just the £170 you've paid him for materials. Tell him to take you to court if he wants any more.

 

This is just it. He said he needed £600 to get all the materials. I have asked him for £300 back but he says I can only have £170 as he needs 2 days labour and materials bought. ? I'm writing an email to him and his partner (wife) detailing everything and asking him for the other £120 or I will sue him in small claims for the full amount. Plus more for damage caused to a Victorian railing he broke with his bloody digger! 

[Mr Punter]

For this sort of job it is best to get 3 people over to have a look and decide what needs doing and get a written quote from each.  It may be that you did not specify what you wanted and ended up with a cowboy job.  What was the total contract sum and what was he supposed to do for that?

[jamieled]

I'd second @Mr Punter. While the work may not be great, I rarely speak to many contractors who note that the previous person did a top class job. In itself it's probably a weak basis for a claim. While I can understand you'd be fairly unhappy about the work that's been done, try and get away from the 'he said' type of statement and note, in non-emotive language, what the problems are and why. Reference to standards (whether building standards or manufacturers standards) might help create a more objective basis for a claim.

[Yzzy]

6 minutes ago, jamieled said:

I'd second @Mr Punter. While the work may not be great, I rarely speak to many contractors who note that the previous person did a top class job. In itself it's probably a weak basis for a claim. While I can understand you'd be fairly unhappy about the work that's been done, try and get away from the 'he said' type of statement and note, in non-emotive language, what the problems are and why. Reference to standards (whether building standards or manufacturers standards) might help create a more objective basis for a claim.

Thank you.... noted and I will :-) 

[epsilonGreedy]

Reading between the lines here, from the outset of this project you undertook the roles of surveyor, structural engineer, building control inspector, quantity surveyor and project manager.

 

It is unreasonable to blame the solo low-end 130 quid a day bod who decided to work for you, he probably wanted out by the end of day-2 as the poor condition of the structure was revealed.

Edited August 20, 2018 by epsilonGreedy

[Yzzy]

29 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

Reading between the lines here, from the outset of this project you undertook the roles of surveyor, structural engineer, building control inspector, quantity surveyor and project manager.

 

It is unreasonable to blame the solo low-end 130 quid a day bod who decided to work for you, he probably wanted out by the end of day-2 as the poor condition of the structure was revealed.

 

Not at all, his and his sons company deal in BIG developments and are very well known. I asked him to tell me what to do about the structure to get it ready to live in. He said all that was needed was a new roof. I am learning a lot but I am no way experienced enough to know anything about what is and isn't safe. He has visited the site many many times as he was going to do most of the work. I trusted his professional opinion as did my husband. 

It was only because it looked 'wrong' that I called in someone else (actually two people but one was just for a 3rd opinion) and will now have M do the work. 

 

"he probably wanted out by the end of day-2 as the poor condition of the structure was revealed."

 

The room was gutted weeks ago and he has seen it many times. The onus was on HIM to notice the instability of the frame and piers not me. I know nothing! 

 

Well I do now. Anyway. I f*cked up. I have learned my lesson and am now paying top dollar for a real professional not some guy that wants an 'easy' weekend project. 

[ProDave]

Just to say those are the correct "twissle" nails for joist hangers. Just not enough of them.

[epsilonGreedy]

28 minutes ago, Yzzy said:

Well I do now. Anyway. I f*cked up. I have learned my lesson and am now paying top dollar for a real professional not some guy that wants an 'easy' weekend project. 

 

 

I can see how this happened, you commissioned a roofing job and it started turning into a structural renovation. £130 a day is not a lot for someone who is expected to cover all those roles I mentioned. Will you now have to submit plans to your local building control office as the scope of the job has grown?

 

Playing the role of small claims court magistrate, my first question would be "what contract was established" and then "did you gain any benefit as the daily rate odd job man worked under your supervision".

 

[jack]

4 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

Playing the role of small claims court magistrate, my first question would be "what contract was established" and then "did you gain any benefit as the daily rate odd job man worked under your supervision".

 

Most magistrates are pretty good at sorting out what's what. I doubt any would consider that any benefit was gained from what's been done to date (especially given the costs of remediating the piers, assuming it can be shown that they were damaged by the first builder).

That said, I'd be tempted to accept that £120 extra is a small price for dodging this bullet. Also, the last thing you want is to make an enemy of someone locally well known.

 

Personally, I'd consider accepting the loss, diverting my time and attention back to what's being done now by the new guy, and chalking up the extra as a price paid for useful experience.

 

Probably not what you want to hear given the horrible job that was done, but your time, energy and emotional well-being have a price too.

[nod]

1 hour ago, epsilonGreedy said:

Reading between the lines here, from the outset of this project you undertook the roles of surveyor, structural engineer, building control inspector, quantity surveyor and project manager.

 

It is unreasonable to blame the solo low-end 130 quid a day bod who decided to work for you, he probably wanted out by the end of day-2 as the poor condition of the structure was revealed.

I Echo that

You can’t exspect someone to be running his own business for a £130 per day

Vehichle tools Corperation tax

and holidays

You get what you pay for 

[newhome]

Regardless of the quality of work because I’m no expert so cannot comment on that, if you have lost confidence in the guy and aren’t happy with his work then I would say that you were right to part company with him. Dealing with builders once relations have soured is a thankless task. It’s stressful, difficult and can lead to further issues so see this as a positive and as @jack says time to look forward with the new guy. Chalk it up to experience and learn from it. Also don’t hand over more money than you can afford to write off at any stage. Relatively it’s not a large sum so although annoying it’s possibly not worth trying too hard to recover the sum you are talking about. 

[newhome]

4 minutes ago, nod said:

I Echo that

You can’t exspect someone to be running his own business for a £130 per day

Vehichle tools Corperation tax

and holidays

You get what you pay for 

 

Depends whether the guy was doing it cash in hand as an ‘extra’ I guess. Even so it’s not a high day rate for the SE. 

[ToughButterCup]

Grit your teeth.  Focus on the future.

Working with the building trades involves a learning and hardening-off process : its very uncomfortable and off-pissing. Especially the learning. Most of us are groping around in the half-dark nearly all the damn time. It stops most of us from sleeping well many nights of the year.

I'm beginning to wish I was an amalgam of PedroW, Nod, The Welsh plumber, Pro Dave and JSH. I'd be bomb-proof if that were the case. 

'Taint never gunner 'appen is it?

• Be clear about what needs to be done next
• List the heading and subheadings
• Discuss those with the next guys who will work for you. Agree what needs to happen
• Agree a budget: agree a set of dates when that budget will be reviewed (weekly?) - get a price
• Be seen on site, take photos, ask questions
• Take written notes of meetings. Send yer man a copy

 

[joe90]

Well I don’t care what he charged, the Work was crap and “not fit for purpose” . Wether you pursue him for your money back is up to you but I agree with others, get three opinions and quotes for the work you require. If you have photos of his work and there is a chance others will see them, he may well offer you your money back!!!

[Square Feet]

Those windows don't look like they have rotted in a matter of days.  I would have thought it would take years for them to get like that.

The shutter ply does look like it has had it though.

[Hecateh]

Definitely right to sack him. 

 

I doubt if it's worth the stress of fighting for the extra money back unfortunately.  Lots of stress and no guarantee of success.  

 

I wish I'd only lost a couple of hundred! 

 

[Stones]

Given all you have on your plate, the best advice I think is to grit your teeth, and move on.  

[Nickfromwales]

Yup.

Confucius say "there is no future in the past" ?

[Yzzy]

On 20/08/2018 at 16:27, Square Feet said:

Those windows don't look like they have rotted in a matter of days.  I would have thought it would take years for them to get like that.

The shutter ply does look like it has had it though.

 

No they were well rotten but according to G "not an issue" ... well they were a bloody issue. Should have seen how easy the lot was to drag down! 

 

Got all my money back and an apology. Then he asked if he could carry on and work for me. 

 

Anyway, page closed on that one, a room lost but never mind I have an amazing new crew on board now so onwards and upwards. 

[Hecateh]

22 minutes ago, Yzzy said:

 

Got all my money back and an apology.  

 

Well done you ?

[Jeremy Harris]

On 20/08/2018 at 14:28, epsilonGreedy said:

Playing the role of small claims court magistrate, my first question would be "what contract was established" and then "did you gain any benefit as the daily rate odd job man worked under your supervision".

 

 

Magistrates do not deal with civil claims.  The Small Claims Track is the least cost method for dealing with a  limited cost civil matter in a County Court, and will normally be dealt with by a Recorder in an informal hearing, almost always not in an actual court room.  It will have nothing at all to do with a Bench of Magistrates at all, as Magistrates generally only deal with the Criminal law.

[Jeremy Harris]

1 hour ago, Yzzy said:

 

No they were well rotten but according to G "not an issue" ... well they were a bloody issue. Should have seen how easy the lot was to drag down! 

 

Got all my money back and an apology. Then he asked if he could carry on and work for me. 

 

Anyway, page closed on that one, a room lost but never mind I have an amazing new crew on board now so onwards and upwards. 

 

 

Good news, and it's useful experience gained, too, which isn't to be frowned upon. 

[Nickfromwales]

Thanks for updating ?