Timber frame or brick & Block

[Moira Niedzwiecka]

1 hour ago, Dreadnaught said:

 

Nice. Out of interest, which company supplied the frame?

PYC from North Wales.

 

[Simplysimon]

10 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

The problem with this debate is that pro TF posters use their own diverse definitions of TF to prove their point. At one end of the scale we have @ProDave who got a bare bones (I assume) TF structure fabricated 3 miles down the road in a rented barn prior to doing most of the build solo diy. At the other end of the spectrum we have wealthy Home County types who jump in their 17 plate Porsche Cayenne on a Friday evening drive out to a £300 per night boutique country hotel and attend a weekend Potton Homes self build advice symposium. On Saturday evening while quaffing an expensive bottle of red they tick boxes on the TF kit order sheet and debate matters like chrome-faced USB enabled sockets, then they drive home glowing in their new status as self-builders and wait for the front door key to be handed over.

 

Quoting selective examples from such a diverse range of self build experiences will create an impression that TF is the superior option and obscure the fact that brick & block is the industry norm for small scale development.

not up here, just about every house will be TF

 

10 hours ago, billt said:

 

Not in the British Isles, maybe in the US.

 

 

after the referendum, Scotland voted to stay part of the UK,  see previous quote.

 

brick and block has a poor u value and this is increased by adding insulation in the cavity, which is there to stop water ingress and as that is not sufficient it needs more inside reducing floorspace. it is poor for being airtight and that will be with a good, conscientious brickie and is difficult to make airtight. TF is far easier to make airtight, the insulation is within the wall construction and if you wish to have an expensive brick rainscreen the cavity is still there to do its job.

[PeterW]

14 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

Why then did @JSHarrisstrive for mm perfection with his passive slab prior to the TF erection team arriving on site.

 

Same as in spec - ie layout - and it does make life a lot easier when you’re laying blocks in a trench getting a nosebleed head down if the top surface of the concrete doesn’t look like the back of a crocodile with rickets....

 

I insisted on ours being laid out properly - standard block work with trenchfill - and we were 20mm out in depth over the 10m before pour, 6mm out after pour, and 2mm out (or the tolerance on my laser) at DPC. 

 

Cutting blocks to get corners level, or sitting them on slabs of muck to get them high isn’t adjusting tolerances, it’s correcting crap workmanship. 

[Declan52]

3 hours ago, Simplysimon said:

not up here, just about every house will be TF

 

after the referendum, Scotland voted to stay part of the UK,  see previous quote.

 

brick and block has a poor u value and this is increased by adding insulation in the cavity, which is there to stop water ingress and as that is not sufficient it needs more inside reducing floorspace. it is poor for being airtight and that will be with a good, conscientious brickie and is difficult to make airtight. TF is far easier to make airtight, the insulation is within the wall construction and if you wish to have an expensive brick rainscreen the cavity is still there to do its job.

You can't just say brick and block has a poor u value. If you make the cavity wide enough and use thermal blocks it can be as good as any timber frame. There are plenty of passive Houses done this way.

Same goes with getting it airtight. You use tape like you would if it's a timber frame to seal the edges of doors and windows and the other junctions and wet plaster the walls. A wall that has a scratch coat and then a skim finish will be as airtight as you can get. If you just put plasterboard onto the walls without a scratch coat or a parge coat then it will leak like a tea bag.

[bissoejosh]

On 26/04/2018 at 08:08, epsilonGreedy said:

 

Why then did @JSHarrisstrive for mm perfection with his passive slab prior to the TF erection team arriving on site.

 

TF doesn't have to have a passive slab. It's a great solution if you can do it and I wish we could but our ground didn't allow so we have beam and block on strip foundations. 

[StructuralEngineer]

20 hours ago, Declan52 said:

It took me close on 9 months to build my block house by myself. I had no digger or telehandler so relied on £20 notes slipped to the driver to get the blocks where I needed them to be. It was a long back breaking 9 months that I would never ever repeat again

 

Thanks @Declan52  for an enormously candid and valuable insight! I'm trying to understand the source of how this went wrong for you. A standard Celcon block weighs 8kg, which usually should be well within the capabilities of someone to lift consistently for a few hours. Also at £2.50 or so per block, they could even be bought ten at a time and transported in the boot of the car, if money was coming in slowly. Am I missing something here? Again, thanks for the insight, and any further details to help me understand this would be much appreciated!

Edited April 27, 2018 by StructuralEngineer
Cost of blocks is more if bought one at a time

[joe90]

15 hours ago, Simplysimon said:

brick and block has a poor u value and this is increased by adding insulation in the cavity, which is there to stop water ingress and as that is not sufficient it needs more inside reducing floorspace. it is poor for being airtight and that will be with a good, conscientious brickie and is difficult to make airtight. TF is far easier to make airtight, the insulation is within the wall construction and if you wish to have an expensive brick rainscreen the cavity is still there to do its job.

 

Well i built brick and block, 1, I wanted a brick outside skin thatnneeds no maintenance as render needs painting and or can lead to cracking. 2, I have not reduced floor space I simply built my house with the rooms the size I required then added walls with cavities.  3, with good bricklayers I got air tight walls with wet plaster, (attention to detail at joins and no expensive tapes that may or may not last. ). 4, solid walls that I can hang anything on. Perhaps I am lucky that I had a good builder but they are out there you just need to do your homework ( and book them early as good ones are always very busy). 

[Declan52]

2 hours ago, StructuralEngineer said:

 

Thanks @Declan52  for an enormously candid and valuable insight! I'm trying to understand the source of how this went wrong for you. A standard Celcon block weighs 8kg, which usually should be well within the capabilities of someone to lift consistently for a few hours. Also at £2.50 or so per block, they could even be bought ten at a time and transported in the boot of the car, if money was coming in slowly. Am I missing something here? Again, thanks for the insight, and any further details to help me understand this would be much appreciated!

It was just me on my own. I had to start the mixer which was an old starter handle job, 10 mins of swinging from cold each morning before it decided that was enough pain for you and it fired up. 

Every mix, every concrete cill and head and each and every block all had to be got to where they needed to be by me including loading out the peaks. 

Its not that blocks are heavy it's the constant working for 2 years that slowly took its toll. I was doing my build on what were my days off work. 

I used lightweight concrete blocks and they where around 80p each at the time, close on 5 years now, so the more I ordered the cheaper they where. If you ordered the blocks on account then you roughly had anywhere between 40-50 days to pay the bill which worked out the best way to do it for us.

[DreamingTheBuild]

Timber frame can be better for difficult ground as it's lighter than block and brick.

 

It can be an advantage not having to have internal load bearing walls if you like open plan living, which timber frame is suited to.

 

It is also good for tight sights. As long as you can get a crane in,  you can avoid the problem of matierals all over the site.

 

I accept TF will cost more but if you don't have hands on building experience you are going to need a gaffer or project manager if say you are building a house that is quite big.

 

I see the advantages of brick and block but can also see why TF, ICF and SIPs are a good choice for the self-builder.

[Triple07]

Most people who have been involved in choosing the process that their Build will take have likely done their research and for whatever reason, they have made that decision based on what is best for them.

We chose timber frame, stick built on site, as timber frame is common up here (weather) and we had the skill to do that ourselves (joiner). The brickies laid the base course on top of concrete foundations, and have skinned the build too, it’s what we were comfortable with, as it’s what we know.

Thats not to say it’s best. But it was best for us, made financial sense, wasn’t risky.

I would speak to others in your area that have just built and ask if happy with decision as you may just get biased, defensive views here. 

We all like to think we are right ?

[Ian D]

On 24/04/2018 at 09:56, Dreadnaught said:

 

Out of interest, which timber-frame company did you use?

Am going to use timber frame possibly sips 

[recoveringbuilder]

This is our third timber frame house and by far the best, claymore timber frame in Fife.

things have changed a lot in the last ten years, internal panels used to be only frames now they’re solid panels with insulation and vapour barriers. Panels around the outside walls filled with kingspan then 37.5mm plasterboard backed with more insulation, ceilings between downstairs and upstairs double boarded , what I like about it is you know what you’re getting from them and a cost and just have to add on what you aren’t getting and as for erection we had a fantastic team of 5 who had it wind and water tight in 11 days and when the kitchen company came today to do a hard measure they said it was millimetre perfect and all walls plumb.

[lizzie]

If I was doing it again I would not used TF.  Our house is not square or plumb and it goes back to the problem slab and the TF erectors putting the house up lopsided on the undulating slab.  Brick/block is much less forgiving and they would not have got away with such a shoddy job.

[PeterW]

Just now, lizzie said:

Brick/block is much less forgiving and they would not have got away with such a shoddy job

 

Do you mean that ..??? Brick and block is much more forgiving as the module dimension is a magnitude smaller than a tf panel. 

[lizzie]

1 minute ago, PeterW said:

 

Do you mean that ..??? Brick and block is much more forgiving as the module dimension is a magnitude smaller than a tf panel. 

probably badly expressed what I mean is they could not have left us with a lop sided house and walked away as TF erectors do. If brickies had build it out of square and lop sided then it would be obvious as construction progressed and remedial action able to be undertaken rather than a whole house thrown up in a few days and problems left behind including flat deck roof with a big dip in it. My previous house (built for us) was block and brick and all walls were square and house was straight, you would have thought that would be the norm but seems not with TF and not only me seem to have problems with the TF erectors doing a shoddy job and just making it fit rather than making sure it is straight and square and true. My walls are well out, I have slivers of tiles around the edges where tiler has had to make up for the rooms being out....this is external walls.

[Construction Channel]

I think there is a little bit too much tar being slung around here. There are people that don’t care in every trade but that doesn’t make the system they are using and worse than the other. It all really comes down to the PM to spot and remedy any poor workmanship before the next trade goes on top of it. 

[LA3222]

22 minutes ago, Construction Channel said:

I think there is a little bit too much tar being slung around here. There are people that don’t care in every trade but that doesn’t make the system they are using and worse than the other. It all really comes down to the PM to spot and remedy any poor workmanship before the next trade goes on top of it. 

To a certain extent I would agree with you here.  However in a situation such as @lizzie experienced, the TF goes up so quick I feel it is extremely difficult for the self builder to identify such issues until it is potentially too late to do anything about it.

 

Once the TF erectors have left site are they bothered if you identify issues 2/3 weeks after they have gone and the cash is in their bank?

 

Yes the buck stops with you.  But equally so when you are paying for professionals to do something which should be their bread and butter it is not unreasonable to expect that a competent level of workmanship is delivered.

 

As an aside Lizzie who did your TF slab and frame? If I recall correctly it was one the suppliers whom has been used by many others on here to glowing reviews - your experiences are a useful reality check in that no matter how many people have good experiences with a supplier, it does not necessary follow that you too will have the same said experience.

 

As an aside, I always thought that TF would be my route - in the last couple of months this has changed and I am now set on a block build.  A couple of reasons really - but not because I am anti TF.  It's all down to personal preference really. 

Edited August 2, 2018 by LA3222
sic

[lizzie]

3 minutes ago, Construction Channel said:

I think there is a little bit too much tar being slung around here. There are people that don’t care in every trade but that doesn’t make the system they are using and worse than the other. It all really comes down to the PM to spot and remedy any poor workmanship before the next trade goes on top of it. 

It was a personal opinion based on my own experience of TF construction.  I said I would not have another TF house due to my experience with this one.  I know I am not alone but I am not citing others experiences just my own which was of a poor quality shoddy job.  If you are saying I am responsible for this poor quality job then that does not say much for the provider and the standards they set.  I was let down on quality control yes and there is no doubt it should have been questioned but for reasons I did not know it wasn't.  I as the paying customer lost out all ways and the poor TF and slab job has impacted us right through the build and so my own view of TF is I would not use it again due to my personal experience. If a TF provider thinks it Ok to do a shoddy job and leave the customer to find the problems, PM or not,  then that is not a good TF supplier in my opinion, they should have a minimum standard and work to that but this discussion is about methods rather than individual providers.  Tar maybe but I feel bruised by my whole TF experience and so would not use this method again.  With brick and block such fundamental problems would be very obvious as construction progressed even to the untrained eye (mine). I accept my view of the TF construction method is entirely coloured by my bad experience but that is the consequence of what happened to me. There are good and  bad in everything but as my experience was bad that is my view and right or wrong it is how I feel.

[Declan52]

You would be surprised how far out of plumb you can build blocks. I have seen some really bad block houses over the years as well. 

No matter what method you choose you should always be checking up on how it is going. Doesn't take long to put a tape over a base to see if it's square or put a level on a wall to check for plumb. I accept with tf things move at a much faster pace and maybe you don't want to get in the way but it's your money paying for the work so never be afraid to call a halt to work to check whatever aspect is troubling you.

The most important aspect of the troubles Lizzie has experienced is the simple fact if it's not right at the bottom then you have no chance of it being right at the top. Attention to detail is critical here and never ever be afraid to question either the guys doing the work or if your not running the build yourself then the PM. 

[PeterW]

16 minutes ago, lizzie said:

With brick and block such fundamental problems would be very obvious as construction progressed even to the untrained eye (mine).

 

As someone who has been around the industry a while, I don’t think that is the case. Spotting errors in block work can be more difficult as mortar joints can hide all sorts of issues - whilst the human body can sense a 2 degree slope, the human eye cannot identify a 2 degree line out of true. 

 

What a number of these posts are illustrating is the importance of project management, and using a PM who has plenty of relevant experience. Trust is great, but it needs to be based on experience and a common understanding. 

[joe90]

I agree there are good and bad tradesmen out there but the method of building is not the fault. I do believe the customer should be either capable of project managing or pay a project manager to make sure each stage is correct. Only get tradesmen by reputation and recommendation.

[lizzie]

Just now, PeterW said:

 

As someone who has been around the industry a while, I don’t think that is the case. Spotting errors in block work can be more difficult as mortar joints can hide all sorts of issues - whilst the human body can sense a 2 degree slope, the human eye cannot identify a 2 degree line out of true. 

 

What a number of these posts are illustrating is the importance of project management, and using a PM who has plenty of relevant experience. Trust is great, but it needs to be based on experience and a common understanding. 

Yes OK I know that and thought I had!

 

Difference to me with brick and block is that you have time to go and measure as work progresses that way you can spot problems and rectify.  The TF issue is its all of a hurry over a few days and you cant get at it to see or check and then they are gone.

[lizzie]

3 minutes ago, joe90 said:

I agree there are good and bad tradesmen out there but the method of building is not the fault. I do believe the customer should be either capable of project managing or pay a project manager to make sure each stage is correct. Only get tradesmen by reputation and recommendation.

I paid a professional PM

[Construction Channel]

The main issue is the entire building sector. Not many people become builders because they really want to work hard their entire life. Most do it because they couldn’t be bothered to educate themselves well enough to get a better job and to become a builder all you really need to do is stick a number on the side of your car and steal a hammer off someone. 

 

Its not so much the case will small firms or one man bands but in bigger firms anyone that cares even the smallest amount is so far ahead of the norm they soon get promoted to an office job and the firms workmanship goes back to square one. Unfortunately it’s just the way it is. 

 

 

[LA3222]

1 minute ago, Declan52 said:

You would be surprised how far out of plumb you can build blocks. I have seen some really bad block houses over the years as well. 

No matter what method you choose you should always be checking up on how it is going. Doesn't take long to put a tape over a base to see if it's square or put a level on a wall to check for plumb. I accept with tf things move at a much faster pace and maybe you don't want to get in the way but it's your money paying for the work so never be afraid to call a halt to work to check whatever aspect is troubling you.

The most important aspect of the troubles Lizzie has experienced is the simple fact if it's not right at the bottom then you have no chance of it being right at the top. Attention to detail is critical here and never ever be afraid to question either the guys doing the work or if your not running the build yourself then the PM. 

You are right - anything can be built out of plumb or wrong.  It's unfortunately the case that not all self builders are competent or confident enough to scrutinise and call out the work of the 'professionals' they contract to carry out work for them.

 

I think TF is especially an area where it is unfair to say that the self builders as PM should ultimately identify any issues.

 

The reason most self builders go with TF is that it is seen as the easiest way to 'de-risk' getting to the wind and watertight stage.

 

You are giving a company a wedge of cash on the understanding they will do as advertised and unfortunately some members have had bad experiences in this approach - even when paying more for a gold standard service from reputable companies with established track records.

 

If you are told by 10 people these people are the bees knees and they have provided me with XY and z standard service then I would argue that they are not being daft to expect the same.  Unfortunately you can still get caught out as has been shown.

 

Personally my own approach will be to scrutinise everything to the nth degree.  I may make mistakes and miss stuff - if so then that is my mistake.  Anyone I contract with will do so on the understanding that I will monitor and scrutinise the standard of work, if that is not acceptable then they won't get the job.  Simple.

 

This approach may make it harder to find contractors but so be it - I rather take longer and get it right than mess about paying twice to fix shoddy workmanship.