Gamekeeper turned Poacher!

[Fredd]

13 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

 

Our passive build cost around 10% less versus a conventional build in the same location, according to a well-respected architect who came to look at it and asked me for the cost breakdown spreadsheet.

 

There's a VERY big difference between the economics of building houses on a development and building a single house on a solo plot.  Just about every cost associated with building a single house is higher, from no sharing of costs for things like services, ecological surveys, flood risk surveys, contamination reports, highways reports, you name it.  Then add in that all of the mobilisation costs for every trade on site has to be borne by a single house, and it soon becomes clear that all these "fixed costs" significantly exceed the tiny difference that a bit more insulation and very much better airtightness costs.  The latter two elements are way down in the noise of the overall build cost, and may well be recovered by other cost saving elements with some build methods.

 

For example, because of the very much higher accuracy of our passive frame, there was around 20% less wastage on plasterboard and cutting .  There was also a saving because the dead flat slab (which included the UFH pipes and next to no additional cost (around £300 IIRC) was so flat that all the floor coverings could be laid directly onto it, with no need for screeds or any labour to get the floor dead flat.  Just those two aspects potentially saved around 3% of the passive frame and foundation system cost.

 

this is where self builders cant see the wood for the trees. no offence.

 

couple sheets of £4 plasterboard wasted make zero difference.

 

Slabs is a hangover from the 60's! Block and beam, insulation, underfloor and a perfect level screed everytime. This is normal not an exception. You chose the wrong floor method and were lucky the slab pour was level, they usually are miles out. In fact it is cheaper for us to buy use tetris flooring system instead of blocks BUT its a pain in the arse to use as it cant be left until the shell is watertight until screeding. in other words it will get buggered up by stuff being dropped, dripped, machines etc. Yes of course there are ways to protect it but who needs the extra hassle for a few hundred quid saving. A self builder may though in fairness.

 

You may have a point on some miner economies with larger sites, we find on sites of 5 there really arent many as utilities are a rip off whether its a single connection or 5. We have a bungalow build sewer charged £4k. We had a pair of 5 beds, charged £800. both were connections to road both around same length. No reasoning with them.

 

If you dont mind, share your timber frame cost + labour and m2 fit it and I'll tell you how much cash you put up in smoke compared to trad build.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Fredd
typo

[Stones]

Welcome @Fredd

 

I've built six houses over the years, 5 timber framed (4 kit one stick built on site) and the current house using ICF.  I costed block built on the first four houses.  For three of the houses it was marginally more expensive, and the forth the same cost.  Where I currently live TF is popular because there are a large number of self builders who do the work themselves.  

 

It comes down in part to the design of the house being built (as it may lend itself to a particular construction method), the availability and cost of trades, and for self builders how much input they want to have.  I could have built my own TF if I had wanted.  One of my friends has done exactly that and has 'saved' a lot of labour cost by doing it himself.  

[Fredd]

1 minute ago, Stones said:

Welcome @Fredd

 

I've built six houses over the years, 5 timber framed (4 kit one stick built on site) and the current house using ICF.  I costed block built on the first four houses.  For three of the houses it was marginally more expensive, and the forth the same cost.  Where I currently live TF is popular because there are a large number of self builders who do the work themselves.  

 

It comes down in part to the design of the house being built (as it may lend itself to a particular construction method), the availability and cost of trades, and for self builders how much input they want to have.  I could have built my own TF if I had wanted.  One of my friends has done exactly that and has 'saved' a lot of labour cost by doing it himself.  

 

this does surpise me as the shell is the easiest and cheapest part of the build. YOu only have one lot of blokes to manage - brickies.

 

To give you an idea, the going rate is around 40p per brick laid, good brickie 180 a day. doesnt take long for a gang of 2 and a labourer to rattle up an average 4 bed.

 

Again could you share you frame cost and labour and m2 to compare? Assume you bricked up the outside anyway so we are comparing a single course of blocks and some mineral wool.

 

 

[Stones]

I can't give any figures as I no longer have the quotes from previous builds. TF was very popular where I lived at the time (Perthshire) and a lot of builders were geared up (and preferred) to build with TF.  Joiners were plentiful but brickies less so IIRC.  It may well have been the lower availability of brickies and therefore the higher salary they could command was the difference.  I simply went with TF as it was cheaper at the time.  

[Nickfromwales]

49 minutes ago, Fredd said:

You chose the wrong floor method and were lucky the slab pour was level, they usually are miles out

@Fredd

I think you should stop making such random and deeply unfounded comments in order to be taken seriously. . 

@JSHarris's "slab" is a passive raft on 300mm of eps. Your preferred method using block and beam has a ventilated cold underside so is inherantly flawed from birth, yet you seem to champion it. . 

I sincerely hope you take some time out to read up on the threads / members blogs here and then maybe you can come back with some educated comments. Assuming ( incorrectly ) what people have done here is quite disrespectful in my opinion, and a little embarrassing for you I'm afraid, so please only refer to individual cases if your able to state the FACTS that reinforce what you write here. 

I suggest a new approach for you. Ask a member what the spec of their build is, rather than assume that they made "a wrong choice", as many who have built here have had the opportunity to examine different build methods, choose from real life case studies, and have had years to decide accordingly. 

Youll find members and staff here very patient and accommodating, but it won't last for long if you keep making such assumptions. 

FYI the member who has in your opinion chosen the wrong floor method is one member who's house would be overheated by said hairdryer, and the build was delivered with guarantees of how the house would be delivered to the client. Guaranteed airtightness to 0.6 ach, and thermal qualities that would make a chuck-me up brick / block colander look like Swiss cheese.

I just don't think you'll sell your POV here I'm afraid, as your preaching the wrong sermon in the wrong church me thinks. 

 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Nickfromwales
Poxy ipad related typos

[Fredd]

sorry i think you read it wrong, i meant pouring a slab and expecting it to be level is wrong. They just arnt that accurate. never are.

 

there are no wrong choices in the building, some just cost more than others!

 

block and beam is fully insulated against cold bridge mind. But again this heat your house with a hairdryer stuff is niche and not applicable to most folk as the economics of it just dont add up.

 

im not that great at writing as you can guess, i definately wasnt saying they were wrong to choose whatever method they like! 

[Alexphd1]

Very interesting reading from a different angle. When we 1st started the two main options were timber with a block outer lay or block cavity block with both being on traditional strip foundation. With more research we ended up with an insulated raft with ICF, done 90% by us. If I bought a house on a new development 300 meters away I would be another £250,000 for a slightly smaller house... No oak windows, no flash kitchen, smaller garden etc.

Could we have built a house to a lower fabric spec...Yes. Would we have saved money on total build cost. Very little. 

[jack]

51 minutes ago, Fredd said:

If you dont mind, share your timber frame cost + labour and m2 fit it and I'll tell you how much cash you put up in smoke compared to trad build.

 

I'm curious about what you're hoping to achieve with this approach. I can't see anything positive that could come from asking this question.

 

As I mentioned elsewhere, you're inhabiting a different world of costs to most self-builders, and seem intent on comparing a built-down-to-a-cost developer house to a self-builder's they'll-take-me-out-of-here-in-a-coffin house.

 

6 minutes ago, Fredd said:

But again this heat your house with a hairdryer stuff is niche and not applicable to most folk as the economics of it just dont add up.

 

But most people building their own houses are already paying a lot more than a developer for something of the same size. The extra cost of more insulation and better airtightness doesn't need to add all that much to this total cost. Over the 10 to 30+ year timeline a lot of selfbuilders have in mind, the extra cost is no big deal unless you're seriously up against a budget. Extra comfort and lower bills for a decade or two (or three) - why wouldn't you if you can afford it? Makes more sense than a £50k kitchen to my mind, but lots of people go for those.

 

2 minutes ago, Fredd said:

sorry i think you read it wrong, i meant pouring a slab and expecting it to be level is wrong. They just arnt that accurate. never are.

 

A properly power floated finish, done by an experienced professional, can be pretty good. Some here are within 5mm across a decent sized-slab (mostly done by the same company). We had ours laser-measured and everything is within 7-8mm across a ~140m² footprint. I don't doubt that a liquid screed could be flatter if done properly.

 

[IanR]

20 minutes ago, Fredd said:

sorry i think you read it wrong, i meant pouring a slab and expecting it to be level is wrong. They just arnt that accurate. never are.

 

There's quite a few here that have a different experience. Here's mine, 465m² of C35 reinforced insulated raft, with UFH included and ready to take final floor finish. U Value: 0.1W/m²K

 

 

Might be worth having a read up and update your knowledge on Insulated raft/slab foundation systems. Here's a few links, if you search Google you will find many more.

 

http://www.advancedfoundationtechnologylimited.co.uk/our-product/

 

http://www.springvale.com/products/groundshield/index

 

https://www.kore-system.com/kore-products/floor-insulation/kore-passive-slab/what-is-kore-passive-slab

 

http://mbctimberframe.co.uk/passive-foundation/

 

http://www.isoquick.de/construction-process.html

 

 

Edited to add: Very cost effective as well. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by IanR

[lizzie]

Our slab was like the Himalayas as some of you might recall. The eps was put down ok but the concrete was a nightmare. I dont know what they floated or levelled it with I could have done a better job myself...and I cant even ice a cake. In fairness  the slab/frame company once alerted paid for rectification to flatten it out but we had to get a fixed cost from floor layer and it ended up with it costing more than agreed so we had to stand that. They had erected the frame on the undulating slab without levelling the frame so our frame was also out and we have had to compensate all over the place for this or the house would look lopsided.  Thank god we have a carpenter who is amazing if he had not been capable of doing these ‘invisible’  mends to straighten up the look of thing I dread to think where we would have been.  Even on our cladding which is absolutely beautiful and perfect he is having to make compensations for the frame being out.  We didnt realise the problems with the frame when we were sorting the floor problems. Behind us now but has cost money and time and a lot of stress.

[Jeremy Harris]

1 hour ago, Fredd said:

 

this is where self builders cant see the wood for the trees. no offence.

 

couple sheets of £4 plasterboard wasted make zero difference.

 

Slabs is a hangover from the 60's! Block and beam, insulation, underfloor and a perfect level screed everytime. This is normal not an exception. You chose the wrong floor method and were lucky the slab pour was level, they usually are miles out. In fact it is cheaper for us to buy use tetris flooring system instead of blocks BUT its a pain in the arse to use as it cant be left until the shell is watertight until screeding. in other words it will get buggered up by stuff being dropped, dripped, machines etc. Yes of course there are ways to protect it but who needs the extra hassle for a few hundred quid saving. A self builder may though in fairness.

 

You may have a point on some miner economies with larger sites, we find on sites of 5 there really arent many as utilities are a rip off whether its a single connection or 5. We have a bungalow build sewer charged £4k. We had a pair of 5 beds, charged £800. both were connections to road both around same length. No reasoning with them.

 

If you dont mind, share your timber frame cost + labour and m2 fit it and I'll tell you how much cash you put up in smoke compared to trad build.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Offence taken, deeply, sorry, but I don't take kindly to the implication that I'm some sort of thick fool who, quote "can't see the wood for the trees".  It is offensive to me, and was directed personally at me by being a quote, just like this is directed at you.

 

You aren't looking at things from a self-builder's perspective, which is always going to be a fair bit different from a mass builder's view.  Our site was like a fair few self-build plots, awkward, expensive to clear and level, and a solo plot with no mains water or drainage.  Straight off we had to look for a build system that would cope with the clay soil that was remaining after we'd removed around 2.5m depth of soil and undergrowth above to level the plot.

 

Trench foundations were a non-starter, because of the ground conditions.  If we went deep enough to use something like this, with clay boards, we'd have been below the local water table.  We're adjacent to a stream inside an AONB, and opposite a listed build, all of which put tight restrictions on what we could and could not do.  That's not untypical, a fair few self-build plots tend to be like this in some ways - they are usually being sold for self-build just because they are too damned awkward for a small builder to take on as a job he could do and make a profit on.

 

Our build is 130m² over 1.5 stories, with a 6m x 4m detached garage at the other end.  The total cost for the foundations, UFH, insulated, weathertight, frame (including the garage), guaranteed to meet or exceed passive house standards, including an air test that was below 0.6 ACH (I think ours was around 0.43 ACH, or about 1.22m³/m²/hr in BC terms) was around £63k.  Taking away the detached garage cost, the house foundations, UFH, insulated, airtight and weathertight house worked out at around £423/m².  To that cost has to be added the external larch cladding (around £7k including labour), the 3G glazing and all the external doors (around £8.5k including fitting),  and the slate roofing, guttering and downpipes (another £8.5k)

 

Before going down this route I explored other foundation options, in particular, given the  challenging nature of the ground, and we were looking at around £12k to £15k just to put suitable foundations in.  A passive slab won hand's down, on price, speed, giving us a finished floor internally, with no need for screeding, inclusion of UFH, etc.   One major advantage we had was that our power floated slab, because of the passive design and the need to be absolutely flat to get the frame to sit square with absolutely no packing (any packing would have messed up the airtightness a lot, and needed loads of work filling and taping up things that wouldn't otherwise need it) resulted in us having a very flat and smooth floor that we could tile and lay timber flooring on to with minimal preparation.  Before tiling (with large format graded 12mm travertine) our tiler spent around 40 minutes going around the ground floor with his laser looking for the highest point.  He couldn't find one, and concluded that the floor was flat.  That saved us 9 bags of adhesive for the travertine, at over £20 a bag, so was another small saving.

 

You say that saving 26 sheets of plasterboard over the original estimate that included normal cutting losses due to things not being dead square, or the actual size they are supposed to be, makes, quote "zero difference".  To me saving over £100 to spend on something useful, is worth having. 

 

As another example of a side effect of building a house in  a factory to tight tolerances, as ours was, I was looking to buy a corner desk a few weeks ago.  I had the drawings handy and they gave the depth of the corner, from plaster skim to the plaster bead on the corner, as 962mm.  I checked this with a tape and it was 962mm, the damned house is built exactly to the drawings, even down to the allowances for plasterboard and skim.  That's been repeated time and time again with significant time savings on things like fitting out the kitchen and bathrooms, where all the dimensions were within a mm or so of the design, which meant cabinets etc all fitted exactly.

 

FWIW, we have no energy bills at all.  The only bill we have is the Council Tax, and that's partially offset by the ~£1000 a year we get paid for the excess energy we export.  We wanted a house for our retirement that had no bills, and we've got one. 

 

Finally, let's compare values and see how they stack up.  I agree that the zero energy bills means sod all to the average buyer, but we did fit the house out internally to a fair standard, with solid oak joinery everywhere, even the skirtings and architrave, solid oak stairs, solid oak fronted kitchen units, Silestone worktops and kitchen/dining room internal window cills, toys like comfort cooling in every room, an integrated boiling water tap etc, massive shower, solid oak bathroom furniture, etc, etc.

 

Build cost was probably on the high side of average for most self-builders, based on costs we've shared on here, at £1380/m², including the cost of the insulated and lined garage, with electric door etc.  The plot cost £90k, the ground works (not including the house foundation) cost £56k, the borehole for water cost £8k, the electricity connection cost £3.4k.  The total build cost came in at £270k and the market valuation last year was between £330k and 345k. Being a passive house reduced the valuation by 5%, according to our valuer, because in his words, he felt that "an eco house is in a niche market".

[Declan52]

41 minutes ago, Fredd said:

 

 

block and beam is fully insulated against cold bridge mind. But again this heat your house with a hairdryer stuff is niche and not applicable to most folk as the economics of it just dont add up.

 

 

How do you deal with the obvious cold spot round the edge where the beams sit on the wall???

How much insulation do you put in the cavity???

How much insulation do you put on top of the floor???

As far pure luck getting a floor screed level I think your doing the MBC guys a big disservice. They do massive amounts of work under neath the floor to get it level. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Declan52

[PeterW]

45 minutes ago, Fredd said:

sorry i think you read it wrong, i meant pouring a slab and expecting it to be level is wrong. They just arnt that accurate. never are.

 

Nope. Wrong again.

 

Standard Build here, trench fill with medium weight block and then EPS infill ground slab. Poured slab in a single day (10 cuM) at 11:30am, bull floated only as used self compacting flowing concrete and by 4pm we had done and levelled 94sqm of concrete.

 

With the exception of a piece about 20cm long to the side of an existing internal wall which we had to float from one side via an existing doorway, the slab is +/- 3mm on level across the whole of a 22m x 4.5m L shaped slab. 

 

Total difference in cost from cheap as $h!t C25 to flowing was £24 per cube so an additional £240. No power float needed, and no hassle. And that was by me, my brickie and a labourer so not a skilled team.

 

So you can get level, just sounds like you are employing the wrong team....

[lizzie]

@Declan52   have a look at my experience of the slab pour .......I must have got the rookie team!

Edited February 7, 2018 by lizzie
spell

[Jeremy Harris]

6 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

How do you deal with the obvious cold spot round the edge where the beams sit on the wall???

How much insulation do you put in the cavity???

How much insulation do you put on top of the floor???

 

 

Thermally, block and beam is a bit of a nightmare.  You have a higher ∆t to deal with, because the air under the floor can be a lot colder that ground temperature, so more insulation is needed to give good cold weather performance, designing out thermal bridging around the edges can be done but requires a lot of fiddly details that are probably costly in terms of labour, and overall it's a solution that's probably mainly of benefit to someone who just wants a quick floor and doesn't care that it needs a lot of extra work to get it flat, well-insulated and mitigate the thermal bridging at the edges. 

 

I can understand why it's used for some builds, but there are other, easier and cheaper ways to get a flat and well insulated floor for a lot of cases.

[Declan52]

2 minutes ago, lizzie said:

@Declan52 have a look at my post.

Did MBC do your screed???

[daiking]

Do Travis sell popcorn?

 

I'm going to need FIBCs of it for this thread.

[Onoff]

@Fredd cat/pigeons springs to mind?

 

@PeterStarck's house. Timber frame with circa 16" thick icynene filled walls. Throughout his winter build he had a 2 or 3kW heater on occasionally.....for the whole house!

 

I've been in plenty of new builds and his and know where I'd rather live. Have you shared your views on MVHR yet?

 

 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Onoff

[Declan52]

2 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

Thermally, block and beam is a bit of a nightmare.  You have a higher ∆t to deal with, because the air under the floor can be a lot colder that ground temperature, so more insulation is needed to give good cold weather performance, designing out thermal bridging around the edges can be done but requires a lot of fiddly details that are probably costly in terms of labour, and overall it's a solution that's probably mainly of benefit to someone who just wants a quick floor and doesn't care that it needs a lot of extra work to get it flat, well-insulated and mitigate the thermal bridging at the edges. 

 

I can understand why it's used for some builds, but there are other, easier and cheaper ways to get a flat and well insulated floor for a lot of cases.

Any of the houses that we done that had block and beam floor I hated them.  If a suspended floor was the only way out then I would go for a full concrete slab. 

[Jeremy Harris]

32 minutes ago, lizzie said:

@Declan52   have a look at my experience of the slab pour .......I must have got the rookie team!

 

 

You definitely did get the rookie team and the company learned a lot of lessons from it, perhaps one of the biggest was that using a different passive slab team, without oversight from their very experienced guys that usually lay slabs like billiard tables, was a big mistake.

 

My experience with self-build is that mistakes aren't that uncommon.  I have our window company coming back to fix one of theirs next week, a bit of a long-standing saga that I won't go into until it's resolved.

 

The main thing is to get the problems resolved so that they don't cause issues later.  I've looked at a few mainstream builds where the problems the new owners were having were due to fundamental flaws in the construction by shoddy workers, that were going to be costly and disruptive to fix on a finished house, with people living in it.  Had those flaws been spotted early and rectified, the cost of rectification would have been a great deal lower than it ended up being.

[Construction Channel]

8 hours ago, Fredd said:

Only build to sell never build for others as I am greedy about profit!

 

Do your best. They’ll caulk the rest. 

??

 

probably best i stay out of this. 

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, Fredd said:

You chose the wrong floor method and were lucky the slab pour was level, they usually are miles out

My screeder lays floors for me and I can paint them green and rack up a game of snooker. I wouldn't pay him if that wasn't delivered. If your paying a guy to concrete the floor for you and it's not level then your using the wrong guy. Simple. 

2 hours ago, Fredd said:

sorry i think you read it wrong, i meant pouring a slab and expecting it to be level is wrong. They just arnt that accurate. never are.

 

there are no wrong choices in the building, some just cost more than others!

 

block and beam is fully insulated against cold bridge mind. But again this heat your house with a hairdryer stuff is niche and not applicable to most folk as the economics of it just dont add up.

 

im not that great at writing as you can guess, i definately wasnt saying they were wrong to choose whatever method they like! 

That's ok. You've just chucked yourself in at the deep end I'm afraid. . 

A forum full of house building builders would have given you an easier ride, but folk here are mostly building a dream home, or even their 5th or 6th dream home, so it's just better that you sooner understand this particular forum, and the way members HERE are building, before leaping in off the high spring board   . 

Fwiw, I'd never buy a chuck-me-up house off a small builder as I'll know they're just about the profit and my money would be better spent elsewhere.  

[ToughButterCup]

I'll have just one more  attempt  .....

Mass building isn't the same as  self-building.

[SteamyTea]

58 minutes ago, Construction Channel said:

probably best i stay out of this. 

Probably best, you don't.  You are a chippy and we don't have many of them.  If you had to build a few houses, say 5 or 6, would you build them on site with sticks and twigs (or rough sawn, or whatever you call it), or would you knock them up in a shed and just nail them together in the dry.

 

@Fredd what sort of airtightness figures do your builds get?

And have you ever sat down and worked out exactly how much value you add to a plot by doing the hard work.  You can compare prices on the governments land registry for the areas you have worked in.

 

@the rest of you all

The style of Fredd's conversation is familiar, education is needed, rather than confrontation.

 

Edited February 7, 2018 by SteamyTea

[Nickfromwales]

2 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

The style of Fredd's conversation is familiar, education is needed, rather than confrontation.

We are trying my old mukka .