Are we being sold the wrong things?

[SteamyTea]

Just been catching up on posts, and it has struck me that choices are becoming overcomplicated by things that may not really matter.

By this, what I am talking about is basic systems i.e. home automation, heating systems, plumbing, security, entertainment etc that get sold on the technology and communication abilities, rather than the functionality.

A few very technically minded people have bought into quite interesting control systems, then ripped the controls out, and replaced them with something very basic, but functional.

 

Discus?

Edited March 20 by SteamyTea

[nod]

I worked on a 20000 sq foot house in the lake district He owns a massive fire alarm company and he automated absolutely everything 12 months on I asked him if he used any of it His answer was We did at first But not much now 

But it’s there if I need it

[JohnMo]

21 minutes ago, nod said:

His answer was We did at first But not much now 

But it’s there if I need it

That about sums it up. Will never get used again, in reality.

[Bramco]

The best way to spec these things is to look at your mum and dad, or grandma and grandad - before you know it, you'll be them. So design things based on that. Simple switches and dimmers etc. No fancy automation.  having said that, I'm writing a house manual......

[SteamyTea]

1 minute ago, Bramco said:

I'm writing a house manual

But what text format are you saving it as, will it be readable when you get to my Mother's age (95 years and 51 weeks).

[FuerteStu]

"are we being sold the wrong things" - yes. 

 

The clue is, that you're being 'sold' them. 

 

I buy the things I need after doing my own research and asking people who have the products. 

 

I don't ever allow a salesperson to give me anything more than the spec. 

[nod]

34 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

That about sums it up. Will never get used again, in reality.

mum doing the plastering on a house at the moment 

22 mil insulated pipes to all five bathrooms Some specifically for towel rails Even though there’s UFH 

He been told that the HP won’t get hot enough for there

So electric towel rails are being brought in from Italy and the pipes are being  boarded into the ceilings 

[Roger440]

To be honest, i just dont get it.

 

I want simplicity in my life. Clever technology only ever goes wrong, breaks down, and then, is no longer supported.

 

First rule, no electronics unless i absolutely have no alternative to achieve the outcome.

 

Home automation though, no, still dont get it.

 

I guess im not a target customer for all this pointless tat 😂

[MikeSharp01]

1 hour ago, Roger440 said:

I guess im not a target customer for all this pointless tat 😂

Says he who has what many would see as a load of relatively pointless tat in his profile picture!

[Mike]

1 hour ago, Bramco said:

having said that, I'm writing a house manual......

It may sound strange, but house manuals are (since January 2023) mandatory in France.

 

You're not expected to write all the text (unless you've rolled your own controls), but as a minimum it has to contain (my abbreviated translation):

• Floor plans and cross-sections

• A list of all thermal insulation & airtightness materials used in the external envelope, their locations and their properties - material, brand, thickness, thermal resistance

• Plans, schemas and descriptions for all services - water, electricity, gas, heating, cooling, ventilation

• A list of the equipment installed that uses energy - brand, model, serial number, power, energy use, energy performance certificate

• Instructions on the functioning, maintenance & servicing of the above
• Serving & maintenance records for the above

• Other documents related to the thermal & environmental performance of the building, such as design documents & certifications, energy audits, energy performance certificates

 

On completion the architect / builder is required to hand it over to the owner (on paper or digitally), who is then responsible for keeping it updated. When the property is sold, it must then be handed over at (or before) contract completion. It then has to be maintained by subsequent owners for the life of the building.

 

For existing buildings, if there isn't already a file then it has to be started when any works are done that significantly affect the thermal performance of the building - insulation, new heating / cooling system, new windows, extensions, etc., including logging what work was done and when. Which means that I have one to prepare.

 

[Mike]

3 hours ago, nod said:

I worked on a 20000 sq foot house in the lake district He owns a massive fire alarm company and he automated absolutely everything 12 months on I asked him if he used any of it His answer was We did at first But not much now 

But it’s there if I need it

The same as buying a washing machine with all those menu options, when you normally only use 2.

[nod]

10 minutes ago, Mike said:

The same as buying a washing machine with all those menu options, when you normally only use 2.

Speaking of which

Our Neff dishwasher still had the sample pack in it when we sold our first build 

This time we have a Siemens that will never be used 

[ProDave]

I don't have an issue with technology when there is a need for it.  But so many things seem far more complex than they need to be.  e.g. My LG ASHP has built in timer functions, but I found it so complicated to work out how to use them, I did not, and contrived the timing functions to work from a perfectly ordinary central heating time clock, something most people understand.

 

Don't get me started on electric panel heaters and LOT20 (an EU thing and god knows why it seems that is still all you can buy in the UK? )  I fitted several for customers and many I removed after just a few days or weeks as the average non tech savvy UK consumer just could not understand the complicated menu needed to be mastered just to turn an electric panel heater on and off.

 

Computers and phones are all well and good and they serve us well.  BUT when you get a new computer or a new phone, remember the hours / days you spend getting it all as you like it?  That is why I rarely upgrade such things, preferring to keep them in use long after most people tell me they are obsolete, and when I do upgrade it is a larger jump rather that regular updates for something just a little bit better.

 

Home automation would make me shudder, what of one bit went wrong?  How easy would it be to replace that bit and quickly get it reconfigured exactly as it was, even if this happened after 10 years when it is likely your old one is obsolete and the new replacement is not the same so not a drop in replacement?

[JohnMo]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

when you normally only use 2.

That's going over the top - one program is all we ever use

[Canski]

2 hours ago, nod said:

Speaking of which

Our Neff dishwasher still had the sample pack in it when we sold our first build 

This time we have a Siemens that will never be used 

If my car and my dishwasher broke down on the same day I would mend the dishwasher. Mine is ‘Wi-Fi enabled’ but after thinking that Wi-Fi can’t put the tablet in the machine I didn’t take it any further. Edited to add … I just wrote a long detailed post about summerhouse cladding but whilst putting a photo up I managed to lose all of the text. That’s me and technology for the day. Footings tomorrow 🕺🏻🕺🏻

Edited March 21 by Canski
Technology headf£#k

[Gus Potter]

7 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Just been catching up on posts, and it has struck me that choices are becoming overcomplicated by things that may not really matter.

By this, what I am talking about is basic systems i.e. home automation, heating systems, plumbing, security, entertainment etc that get sold on the technology and communication abilities, rather than the functionality.

A few very technically minded people have bought into quite interesting control systems, then ripped the controls out, and replaced them with something very basic, but functional.

 

Discus?

Happy to do so. I pick just one easy target below.

 

I know a bit about how you design a UF system that is buildable, will last for 25 -50 years and how you maintain all of that so you hold the value of your asset. I've done UF sytems on my own houses so have real life experience. I'm not making this up, I have been there and worn the tee shirt. Here is a particular example for self builders. If anyone wants to have a punt at my approach then please pipe up so new folk on BH can see how we can deal with technology. But the same rule apply to say security ststems.. it's not just keepimg the software up to date its the hidden cost of updates that just add to the day to day cost of living. 

 

Young folk with families just can't afford this.. I just don't want to expose my young clients in particular to these hidden risks.

 

OK

 

For the cynics. @Nickfromwales I have spent 40 years building my reputation in the construction industry. Nick is out of the same mould as myself. There is a good living to be made by being honest and reliable.

 

For all to provide a bit of context. I was a builder for the first 20 years of my carear, then did a self build that had underfloor heating, went to uni to become an SE.. after a few years I am now an SE/ come Architectural designer. I'm into Passive house stuff, raft slabs.. anything that make my design life interesting.

 

I have said this on BH since the day I joined. I have been designing basic UF sytems when lots of folk on BH were still in short trousers.

 

If any of you have designed a UF system 30 years ago then let me know. That is when I did my first one. Cut me a bit of slack folks and just listen to what I know from experience. You don't need to take my advice.. but you are all big boys and girls.

 

Most folk on BH try to use automated controls, fancy loop systems, weather compensation and the like. I'll tell you folks.. it's mostly pish. If you want to have a go at automating a UF system then you need to have at least two proven designs on you own house under your belt, delivered properly before you try and even atempt this.

 

Avoid anything that has complex controls: because your software will get outdated, then pipe sizes and flow valves etc stop performing after a few years. Try to sell the house and a surveyor will look at the hard facts and may actually say to their Client the heating system is a pup so lets take many thousands off the value. The boiler degrgates, the pumps. The Scandinavians have UF as ON and OFF! simple stupid.

 

Folks this is tough love I'm giving you. I know you are keen to try and automate say your underfloor heating/ security and so on but as a old crusty bastard I just know that ten years down the line it could be a massive liability that will impact on the resal value of your property. It's like buying a modified car from a boy racer!

 

As a designer who does a lot of stuff for young folk on a budget, wanting to improve the value of their property but extend and alter it a bit I think about this deeply. How can I make alterations to a property and maintain their asset value. Personally I don't run about designing stuff that is detrimental to my Client's interest.

 

There is a balance to be struck here, by all means be innovative. I was designing insulated industrial concrete slabs long before MBC and Advance Foundation Technology and the like got on the self build band wagon. Now in the round it's a good thing if MBC and AFD et all are marketing this.

7 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

and replaced them with something very basic, but functional.

 

Yes I've expounded that view since the days I joined BH.

 

For all, also the folk that are just starting out say renovating a first flat. Try and learn as much as you can. Don't loose you shirt and enthusiasm, even a small profit is a gain.. sets you up for for the next project.

 

I'm Gus and grumpy at times.

 

To add bit. Yes we want to do a self build or extend but we also want to make money and if we can do that and have some fun in the process then.. goooood result!

 

 

 

Edited March 21 by Gus Potter

[Big Jimbo]

11 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

But what text format are you saving it as, will it be readable when you get to my Mother's age (95 years and 51 weeks).

Thats so true.I have got LP's and cassettes I can't play. Reel to reel tapes of my own music, (that I paid thousands of pounds to record ) that I can't play. Photos on phones and old computers that i can't access. Mini, and Dat, and video tapes, that I can't play. Compact discs, etc, etc.

Even cars are over complicated. One small wire broken only son in laws car, made it drive like crap. Drop its fuel consumption considerably, Soot up internally, and fail its mot on emissions. All without even giving him a dash light warning. 

Technology is over rated without question IMO

[nod]

7 hours ago, Canski said:

If my car and my dishwasher broke down on the same day I would mend the dishwasher. Mine is ‘Wi-Fi enabled’ but after thinking that Wi-Fi can’t put the tablet in the machine I didn’t take it any further. Edited to add … I just wrote a long detailed post about summerhouse cladding but whilst putting a photo up I managed to lose all of the text. That’s me and technology for the day. Footings tomorrow 🕺🏻🕺🏻

A dishwasher is the most pointless thing ever 

Unless your single 😁

[Pocster]

23 minutes ago, nod said:

A dishwasher is the most pointless thing ever 

Unless your single 😁

Nooooooo !

it’s awesome !

[Pocster]

I got a new lease car .

At under 250 miles of use I got an “SOS” warning telling me to take it to an authorised dealer immediately!

Naturally ! This somewhat worrying !

An AA guy ( vehicle not alcohol) came out with a plug in diagnosing box .

It appears some issue with the car’s microphone…. It’s an intermittent fault of course! . As an ex software engineer I think most things like this are crap code rather than real physical issues .

[JohnMo]

1 minute ago, Pocster said:

appears some issue with the car’s microphone

Someone listening, may think that's a major issue. Microphone stops, they can no longer hear you plotting to buy you next dishwasher - they can't then bombard you with appropriate (!) advertising.

 

 

[marshian]

12 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Says he who has what many would see as a load of relatively pointless tat in his profile picture!

 

How can anyone in their right mind call a pickup with a V8 up front "pointless tat"

 

It's a totally practical vehicle

[SteamyTea]

2 hours ago, nod said:

dishwasher is the most pointless thing ever 

Unless your single

Why if you are single. Seems a high price to pay for marriage.

[marshian]

11 hours ago, Mike said:

It may sound strange, but house manuals are (since January 2023) mandatory in France.

 

You're not expected to write all the text (unless you've rolled your own controls), but as a minimum it has to contain (my abbreviated translation):

• Floor plans and cross-sections

• A list of all thermal insulation & airtightness materials used in the external envelope, their locations and their properties - material, brand, thickness, thermal resistance

• Plans, schemas and descriptions for all services - water, electricity, gas, heating, cooling, ventilation

• A list of the equipment installed that uses energy - brand, model, serial number, power, energy use, energy performance certificate

• Instructions on the functioning, maintenance & servicing of the above
• Serving & maintenance records for the above

• Other documents related to the thermal & environmental performance of the building, such as design documents & certifications, energy audits, energy performance certificates

 

On completion the architect / builder is required to hand it over to the owner (on paper or digitally), who is then responsible for keeping it updated. When the property is sold, it must then be handed over at (or before) contract completion. It then has to be maintained by subsequent owners for the life of the building.

 

For existing buildings, if there isn't already a file then it has to be started when any works are done that significantly affect the thermal performance of the building - insulation, new heating / cooling system, new windows, extensions, etc., including logging what work was done and when. Which means that I have one to prepare.

 

 

 

That sounds like a very sensible solution

 

I can see that being followed to the letter by the French 😉

 

[marshian]

10 hours ago, JohnMo said:

That's going over the top - one program is all we ever use

 

We have 12 - only 2 are used - "Cool Wash - Rapid" and "Boil Wash - Max heat"

 

Stops the washing machine getting smelly when that cycle is used once a month