Sunamp catastrophic failure . . .

[MikeSharp01]

8 hours ago, Jeremy Harris said:

How do you dispose of ~160kg box full of leaking sodium acetate?

Hi Jeremy and welcome back. One of @TerryE's Sunamp's failed and he disposed of the acetate, cut the machine up and replaced it with a UVC - see his posts for details. 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

1 hour ago, Russdl said:

@Jeremy Harris It should have a 10 year warranty on the PCM. 
 

 

Sunamp Warranty (pre June 2024)

 

 

Many thanks, for some reason I didn't receive this with any of the paperwork that came with my unit, not sure why.  All I had was an emailed invoice plus a copy of the installation instructions (which got amended once or twice IIRC).  I've contacted Sunamp to check the warranty, have to see what they say.  I can't honestly say I'm hopeful, TBH.

 

 

[Russdl]

As you had so much input to Sunamp in the early days I’d be gobsmacked if they didn’t honour the 10 year warranty, even if the paperwork isn’t quite in line. 

 

🤞🏻

[jack]

26 minutes ago, Jeremy Harris said:

Many thanks, for some reason I didn't receive this with any of the paperwork that came with my unit, not sure why.  All I had was an emailed invoice plus a copy of the installation instructions (which got amended once or twice IIRC).  I've contacted Sunamp to check the warranty, have to see what they say.  I can't honestly say I'm hopeful, TBH.

 

I know you were very early Jeremy (possibly even before full production had ramped up?)

 

Is it possible your purchase pre-dated the 10 year warranty?

[saveasteading]

As a potential customer for sunamp, I won't  be any longer.

If I was them I'd be looking for a resolution to be published here not a tale of woe.

Google finds these posts. Problems with sunamp,  or sunamps customer service resolved it ????

 

[Onoff]

Sunamp-Thermino-Brochure-JUNE-2022-v2.2 (1).pdfIs the PCM in your "original" unit perhaps different to what's in their current Thermino range? PDF attached. Be interesting on how many similar failures they've had and whether the containment is fit for purpose. Imaging it splitting over a kid's room / cot.

 

[crispy_wafer]

37 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

As a potential customer for sunamp, I won't  be any longer.

If I was them I'd be looking for a resolution to be published here not a tale of woe.

Google finds these posts. Problems with sunamp,  or sunamps customer service resolved it ????

 

Yes, same thoughts as being a potential customer.  I was looking into reducing the overall volume that a HW cylinder would take up in my plant cupboard, Sunamp would be ideal, however not so much if it ends up as landfill and costing me £'s in disposal and cleanup is relatively short time.

[Jeremy Harris]

38 minutes ago, jack said:

 

I know you were very early Jeremy (possibly even before full production had ramped up?)

 

Is it possible your purchase pre-dated the 10 year warranty?

 

Very possible, my unit has the serial number 221, so was early in production, for sure, so early that they hadn't really finished writing the installation instructions, as I remember getting at least two, possibly three, different versions from them.

 

There are mandatory requirements on the new Thermino instructions that weren't on mine.   The most obvious is that they now require a pressure relief valve on the cold water supply, rated at no more than 10 bar.  This is in addition to them now stipulating that the 0.5 litre pressure vessel needs to be close to the inlet.  Putting two and two together I suspect the cause of the failures may possibly be related to over-pressure events in the heat exchanger.  I have a 100 litre pressure vessel in the supply to ours, plus the required 2.5 bar pressure regulating valve and in theory it shouldn't be possible for the Sunamp heat exchanger to ever see more than 2.5 bar. 

 

It's supposedly rated at 10bar anyway.  What I don't know is how the heat exchanger is constructed.  I'd assumed it was just a zig zag of copper pipe with perhaps some copper fins.  Perhaps there is some weakness that can develop that's related to pressure cycling, or short pulses of over-pressure from when a tap is closed suddenly.  All just guess work though, based solely on the way Sunamp have imposed new mandatory installation requirements.

[Tennentslager]

Nice to hear from you again @Jeremy Harris old fruit.

I think you will outlast my 10 year old Makita battery 

[Jeremy Harris]

48 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

As a potential customer for sunamp, I won't  be any longer.

If I was them I'd be looking for a resolution to be published here not a tale of woe.

Google finds these posts. Problems with sunamp,  or sunamps customer service resolved it ????

 

 

 

What I don't know is how common PCM leaks are.  I know of two others, back in the very early days there was a chap who was, IIRC, working with Sunamp and who had one empty it's PCM all over the floor of his conservatory.  That was definitely a pre-production unit though, as I am sure he had it on trial from Sunamp.  He may have reported this failure here, I think.  The other failure I know of is Jonathan Porterfield's, which bears an uncanny resemblance to my failure.  That was only last year, and he gave the cause as a waterlogged 0.5 litre pressure vessel (which supports the theory that it's over-pressure events that cause this).

 

In principle there is nothing much to go wrong with a Sunamp.  They are, if anything, slightly simpler than a conventional cylinder.  My gut feeling is that the vast majority of Sunamp's are reliable and likely to last for many years, but that there may be issues with the earlier models, like mine, particularly if there is any possibility of there being high pressure events within the heat exchanger, perhaps.  With, say, a 6 bar pressure relief valve on the inlet, together with a 0.5 litre pressure vessel and the 2.5 bar pressure regulating valve any such high pressure events should be suppressed.

[Jeremy Harris]

27 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Sunamp-Thermino-Brochure-JUNE-2022-v2.2 (1).pdfIs the PCM in your "original" unit perhaps different to what's in their current Thermino range? PDF attached. Be interesting on how many similar failures they've had and whether the containment is fit for purpose. Imaging it splitting over a kid's room / cot.

 

 

 

I don't think so, but there is a massive amount of marketing BS from Sunamp regarding the naming of this stuff.  It's almost certainly just sodium acetate trihydrate, as everything about is is a perfect match for that compound.  Same melting point (58°C), same safety assurance, the stuff even tastes the same (don't ask me how I now know that!).  They originally gave it some daft name to try and make it it was some sort of magic compound and it seems they've now taken to calling it "Plentigrade", almost certainly just for marketing reasons.

 

The main difference between my UniQ and the newer Thermino is that they've done some cost engineering work on it.  The case is the same size and design, but they've integrated the control circuit board inside the top of the case, rather than as a separate wall mounted box.  Looking at videos of the two that seems to be the only major difference.  They've chosen to address the problem I had with the original controller, where it wasn't well suited to charging from excess PV generation, by adding a plug in "key" that changes the programme parameters.  Before they did this by having a different control box for PV (I had to swap out the original because of this).

[Jeremy Harris]

Major news!!!

 

Guess what?  Sunamp have just emailed me to say that they are going to replace our unit as it is covered by the 10 year warranty on the core!

 

They emailed me as I was typing the reply above.

[MikeSharp01]

37 minutes ago, Jeremy Harris said:

They emailed me as I was typing the reply above.

Great news - do you think they are lurking on the side somewhere .

[Jeremy Harris]

1 minute ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Great news - do you think they are lurking on the side somewhere .

 

 

I would think that may well be extremely probable!

 

It's a good response from them whatever the reason, TBH.  It could just be down to my email interaction with their customer service team having (I think) been divided between two or more people.  Just a feeling I got from the replies.  May be that the person that I sent the initial photos and model info to wasn't the same one that gave me the list of installers to contact.

[Russdl]

Excellent news Jeremy and well done Sunamp if you’re reading this 👍🏻

[Jeremy Harris]

20 minutes ago, Russdl said:

Excellent news Jeremy and well done Sunamp if you’re reading this 👍🏻

 

It is indeed very good news, best I could have hoped for, as I really was not looking forward to trying to shift either the old one downstairs or the replacement back up stairs, TBH.  I was even thinking of buying a second-hand stair climber, I'd found an ex-hire one for sale not too far away (Waterlooville) and was just about to agree to buy it and go down to pick it up, thinking that it would be worth it only if I used it twice, given the silly price I was quoted last night.

 

On another positive note a local heating and plumbing company that I contacted yesterday called.  They would have been happy to swap the unit over for me, and were very interested in the Sunamp, they'd not heard of it before.  I spent five minutes on the phone explaining how it worked and the chap seemed keen to know more, so it may be that he might be interested in becoming an installer.  He certainly seemed very down to earth and helpful on the phone.

[Pocster]

I used to work for SunAmp and pulled a few strings .

I got ya bro 👊🏻 

[sgt_woulds]

If there have been changes to the installation requirements since early units were sent out - and if this is due to safety-related changes - shouldn't Sun Amp be contacting all of their customers to have their system checked?  Especially if they sent out early models without full installation instructions or adequate testing!

 

There should also be a prominent notice on their website.

 

They have a duty of care 'in-principle' and probably a legal obligation too - I'm sure the OPSS would take a view on this.

 

I remember 25+ years ago installing some of the first Sunny Boy inverters in the UK.  They were IP65 rated for use externally, but, crucially, not if they were laid on their backs.  A lot were fitted beneath solar panel A-frames on flat roofs.  The first we knew were multiple reports of failure and we realised the problem when one of our lads took the lid off to see inside.  The resulting explosion of flame singed his eyebrows off - but we could then see 2 inches of water sloshing in the case.   We replaced affected inverters on all sites and proactively contacted customers to switch off their systems until we could get to them. 

 

This was before the manufacturer confirmed the issue and agreed to replace every damaged unit.  They reprinted their manuals and issued extra ones to wholesalers with old stocks, so I can't fault them.  I wasn't happy about carrying multiple Iron-core inverters up and down stairs for the next few weeks though - those old SB2500 models needed two people to carry!

 

The point is there shouldn't be stories like yours on here - Sun Amp should issue a recall notice as other responsible companies do.  

 

[Kelvin]

It’s like a scene from Alien. Good news and well done Sun Amp. However, such a catastrophic failure is either a design flaw or a manufacturing flaw. 

[Jenki]

14 hours ago, Jeremy Harris said:

The real problem with the Sunamp is as your say, it's just not in any way repairable.  When it fails it's a write off, with the added problem of trying to get rid of it.  How do you dispose of ~160kg box full of leaking sodium acetate?

Firstly, I've read and learned lots from your posts, especially the spreadsheet for heat loss so thank you👍.

Insurance claim and let them deal with the clean up and disposal

[ProDave]

Excellent news Jeremy.

 

The 0.5L expansion vessel you mention seems tiny?  What is that for?  That won't take up much expansion of hot water.  Compare that to something like a 25L expansion vessel on a typical UVC and even the closed UFH circuit in our house has something like a 10L expansion vessel.

[Jeremy Harris]

1 hour ago, sgt_woulds said:

If there have been changes to the installation requirements since early units were sent out - and if this is due to safety-related changes - shouldn't Sun Amp be contacting all of their customers to have their system checked?  Especially if they sent out early models without full installation instructions or adequate testing!

 

There should also be a prominent notice on their website.

 

They have a duty of care 'in-principle' and probably a legal obligation too - I'm sure the OPSS would take a view on this.

 

I remember 25+ years ago installing some of the first Sunny Boy inverters in the UK.  They were IP65 rated for use externally, but, crucially, not if they were laid on their backs.  A lot were fitted beneath solar panel A-frames on flat roofs.  The first we knew were multiple reports of failure and we realised the problem when one of our lads took the lid off to see inside.  The resulting explosion of flame singed his eyebrows off - but we could then see 2 inches of water sloshing in the case.   We replaced affected inverters on all sites and proactively contacted customers to switch off their systems until we could get to them. 

 

This was before the manufacturer confirmed the issue and agreed to replace every damaged unit.  They reprinted their manuals and issued extra ones to wholesalers with old stocks, so I can't fault them.  I wasn't happy about carrying multiple Iron-core inverters up and down stairs for the next few weeks though - those old SB2500 models needed two people to carry!

 

The point is there shouldn't be stories like yours on here - Sun Amp should issue a recall notice as other responsible companies do.  

 

 

I did wonder about this when talking with the installer who gave me that very high quote yesterday.  During our chat he specifically mentioned that he had installed lots of Sunamps without the now mandatory pressure relief valve on the supply, and all were still fine.  I didn't challenge him about going back to all those customers and retroftting a relief valve, but it did occur to me that they might just be at risk of failure, if the theory that it might be something like water hammer that is contributing to the failure.

 

Their current MIs are very clear about this requirement, though, and also the requirement for the 0.5 litre pressure vessel, with so much emphasis that I can't help but think these are now critical components:

 

[Jeremy Harris]

8 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Excellent news Jeremy.

 

The 0.5L expansion vessel you mention seems tiny?  What is that for?  That won't take up much expansion of hot water.  Compare that to something like a 25L expansion vessel on a typical UVC and even the closed UFH circuit in our house has something like a 10L expansion vessel.

 

I can't be certain, but I'm convinced that it's a shock arrestor there to lessen the effect when a tap is suddenly closed.  This seems to be more of an issue with ceramic tap inserts, that can close off the supply very quickly.  Certainly I have occasionally heard a slight thump when shutting off our shower, probably because the location of it and the 90 deg turn off angle make it very easy to shut it off near-instantly.  What I imagine happens is that the water is merrily whizzing down the pipe, the valve gets suddenly closed and that column of moving water in the pipe has no where to go, so bounces back as a shock wave.

 

I can't believe that it's just there to deal with expansion in the internal pipes as the unit heats up, not least because the volume of water inside the thing is very small, plus the pipe work will be able to absorb a small increase, especially homes like ours with plastic piping.  I'm sure that can tolerate a small amount of expansion, which makes me more convinced that this is really a shock arrestor.

[Jeremy Harris]

1 hour ago, Kelvin said:

It’s like a scene from Alien. Good news and well done Sun Amp. However, such a catastrophic failure is either a design flaw or a manufacturing flaw. 

 

I suspect it's a bit of both.  If I'm right about the cause being related to stresses imposed on the heat exchanger from short duration high pressure events then there is a pretty good chance that this may be something that only happens with some installations, the exact circumstances of which may not have been simulated during all the extensive testing done during the design stage.  I know their testing was pretty thorough, from conversations with one of their technical people, but it must be impossible to test for every possible installation condition, and being a relatively new company it may well be that they didn't have a secret stash of hard won experience to call on.

 

 

 

[sgt_woulds]

42 minutes ago, Jeremy Harris said:

 

I suspect it's a bit of both.  If I'm right about the cause being related to stresses imposed on the heat exchanger from short duration high pressure events then there is a pretty good chance that this may be something that only happens with some installations, the exact circumstances of which may not have been simulated during all the extensive testing done during the design stage.  I know their testing was pretty thorough, from conversations with one of their technical people, but it must be impossible to test for every possible installation condition, and being a relatively new company it may well be that they didn't have a secret stash of hard won experience to call on.

 

 

 

 

True, but once you have the experience and know that there is a risk you have a moral duty to protect your customers from the consequences of your error.

 

Unfortunately, moral compasses all point due profit these days...