Insane Estimates

[sameulepapi]

Hello!

 

So we are starting to put together budgets. Having spoken to a few architects we are being told we are looking at a MIN of £3.5k per sqm and most likely £5k per sq m with everything including fees and final finish......

 

Seems to be the consensus even having spoken to 4/5 of them. This is a one-off build in the SE at around 500 sq m and will prob be considered 'higher end'

 

When you factor in the falling house prices potential and the cost of the land, it is hard to make it add up......... Not looking to make a profit but it is hard to see how this will be viable. 

 

Anyone else hearing this or have any thoughts on the market? I do not intend to PM myself but even with paying for the extra fees £2.5mil seems a little toppy!

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by sameulepapi
Remove sign off

[MikeSharp01]

Interesting I was taking to our insurance company and they are reckoning we need around £4K /sqM as a rebuild estimate for ours, also in SE! So somebody knows something I guess.

[Kelvin]

This will be building it the most expensive way possible. Time for a healthy dose of cost engineering by going through every element line by line and deciding if you really want it and/or could the same effect be done in a different more cost effective way. 
 

Do you really need a 500m² house? That’s pretty big and apart from build costs will be expensive to run and furnish. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Kelvin

[ProDave]

The only time I tried dealing with an architect, they estimated a build cost way over anything we expected or could ever have afforded.  As it turned out, we built it for half what they estimated.

[sameulepapi]

Yea I am not at the point yet, I guess it is a leap of faith to design it knowing we can then bring it back to something sensible. 

 

We don't NEED 500m but then again it seems to a shame not to maximise the space that is there naturally. I am not too bothered with running and maintaining it I just don' want to pay more than I would if I bought a similar house mid 2023 already built!

[saveasteading]

Let's say you can build it yourself for £1k/m2.

That does not include your labour as a cost, and you will be very good at avoiding waste. Add 50%....£1.50.

Allow for using a series of building trades instead. Add 25% for their costs and risks. £1.90.

 A main contractor adds another 20%...£2.30.

Then there may be a PM.

 

But let's now say the spec is a lot higher. That £1 becomes £2.

The £2.30 becomes £4.60/m2.

 

How much can you do yourself?

 

[JohnMo]

500m2 is a small hotel.  Will be full of rooms you never use, bathrooms you never use but have to clean.  Hope you are getting a full time cleaner.

 

You should start with a reality check on what you need and what you want - very different.

 

You can quite easily sink £50k into lightning, the same into smart stuff that will be old news by the times it's built.

[Dave Jones]

yes thats realistic. It's cheap for some plots and expensive for others.

 

sanity check. Get a RICS valuation (bank will insist anyway if your borrowing) and see what end build will be worth. 

 

Then see if your math adds up.

[Conor]

My architect once told me there was a house size threshold that once you go over, the quotes get exponentially higher... Purely because the contractors expect the client not to care too much about the details of costs and are more likely to be the type that will throw money at something until it sticks. And more likely to be demanding and a PITA, so it's priced accordingly. Not saying that's you, bit that's often the perception and prices reflect that.

 

Also, you get to the point where you lose economies of scale. E.g. this build might need double brick crews, two ground work teams, a tower crane, onsite silo mixing, double the welfare facilities etc... So costs go up massively as your entering commercial build type costs. So I would be budgeting on the higher end of the estimate ranges, £3.5k would be cheap.

[Happy Valley]

You live in the SE where costs can be massively higher than other parts of the country. Getting good trades in from other parts of the country could save you a lot of money if you can find a contractor who is savvy enough. We have just finished our build (in Cheshire) at over £2000/sq m and labour was over a third of that. It could easily have been half or more pushing the build cost past £2500/sq m. 

 

If ultimately this is a home that you are likely to live in for 10 or 20 years then whilst the cost is a consideration getting the right people in to build the home that you want should be the driving factor. 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Happy Valley

[Kelvin]

10 hours ago, sameulepapi said:

Yea I am not at the point yet, I guess it is a leap of faith to design it knowing we can then bring it back to something sensible. 

 

We don't NEED 500m but then again it seems to a shame not to maximise the space that is there naturally. I am not too bothered with running and maintaining it I just don' want to pay more than I would if I bought a similar house mid 2023 already built!

Also keep in mind the that in a lot of cases it ends up costing a fair bit more than your starting price so you need to factor in another 10%-15%. 
 

In terms of size. It’s possible to build a smaller house but designed in such a way that you use every square metre of it so it feels bigger. Our previous house was pretty big with 5 bathrooms. We never used half the house unless we had family/friends staying. The house we are building is half the size with two large bathrooms. It’s flexibly designed so we’ll use it as a two bedroom house but it could be used as a four bedroom house. 
 

You clearly have the money to do it but £3.5k-£5k per sqm is a broad range so lots of scope to save money. 

[jack]

54 minutes ago, Conor said:

And more likely to be demanding and a PITA, so it's priced accordingly. Not saying that's you, bit that's often the perception and prices reflect that.

 

This is one of the reasons our architect gave when we asked why the per sqm rate didn't fall on larger houses due to economies of scale.

 

That and the fact kitchens and bathrooms are the most expensive rooms to build, and larger houses tend to have more of them, taking up more floorspace per room, with more expensive tiles, appliances, worktops, etc.  

 

10 hours ago, sameulepapi said:

We don't NEED 500m but then again it seems to a shame not to maximise the space that is there naturally. I am not too bothered with running and maintaining it I just don' want to pay more than I would if I bought a similar house mid 2023 already built!

 

Looking at your other post, part of the problem may be that you're doing a barn conversion. Perhaps counter-intuitively, converting an existing structure can be more expensive - sometimes considerably more expensive - than knocking down and starting again. There are a lot of unknown and potentially pricey risks involved with conversions, plus it can be a lot more effort working within the constraints of existing structures even if there are no such surprises.

One way to approach it might be cost plus pricing: 

 

This gives the contractor some protection against unexpected costs, meaning they won't be padding their quote to cover expensive potential unknowns. The risk, of course, then falls to you, but that shouldn't be an issue if you can afford the higher rates being quoted at the moment.

 

I imagine you'd do need to be a lot more on top of what the contractor does day-to-day if you're paying like this.

[Adrian Walker]

15 hours ago, sameulepapi said:

Hello!

 

So we are starting to put together budgets. Having spoken to a few architects we are being told we are looking at a MIN of £3.5k per sqm and most likely £5k per sq m with everything including fees and final finish......

 

Seems to be the consensus even having spoken to 4/5 of them. This is a one-off build in the SE at around 500 sq m and will prob be considered 'higher end'

 

When you factor in the falling house prices potential and the cost of the land, it is hard to make it add up......... Not looking to make a profit but it is hard to see how this will be viable. 

 

Anyone else hearing this or have any thoughts on the market? I do not intend to PM myself but even with paying for the extra fees £2.5mil seems a little toppy!

 

 

IMHO  and experience architects no very little about the cost of materials or using them. Costing a build based on it's area is crazy and should be taken with a large bucket of salt.  It's a very complex calculation without actually building it, and includes location, building system, ground conditions, fabric area, volume, materials, finish, air tightness, insulation levels, etc.

[BenP]

Architect here - you're quite right! We tend to use square meter rates to give an idea of cost scale. A lot of our clients aren't always aware that an 8 metre deep extension will significantly challenge their budget over a 4 metre extension!! 

 

We're experiencing some horrific numbers at the moment (SE). However I do think some cost consultants are over egging it. Being in the process of building our own self build we can see that generally they are 25 pc overcooked. Screeding rates were double. I clad our house myself and going by their rates I would have been earing 2-3k a week doing it!!!

 

 

[saveasteading]

When I was an Estimator, it was clear that the build cost was mostly down to the design. 5 or 6 contractors would quote from drawings and bills of quantities and be within 10%.

Moving to design and build projects, the range becomes 100%. Again this is down to the design skills of the contractor and/or their consultants.

For clarity...we quote £1M and a competitor quotes £2M.  100%

 

Why? Because one contractor knows where costs lie and can influence efficient design whereas another leaves it to a consultant.

 

So you can surmise that main contractors will have minor cost differences on a given design, depending on overheads and efficiency.

Of course there are savings for project managing/DIY but also risks.

 

If a house is costing anything over £3k/m2 it is in your hands to accept of reduce it.

[markc]

Last week, labour only to membrane, batten and tile a bungalow. Lowest quote £4200, highest £27,500 🤪 now some variance is to be expected but this is ridiculous 

[sameulepapi]

Thanks all, very helpful.

 

I will look at the cost + route when we get there I think. 

 

I am very unlikely to be able to do anything myself, I don't have the time but moreover I lack the skills!

 

Someone mentioned the fact that they assume you have money so the numbers have plenty of fat 'costing on what you could afford' and this is my main worry. Just want to pay a fair price for a fair job so I think I will have to get more involved than perhaps I thought. We are not borrowing so that does not cause any issues but nobody wants to overpay. 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by sameulepapi
typo

[Happy Valley]

You could always get an independent estimated assessment from firms such as Proquant:

 

https://www.proquantestimating.co.uk/home

 

 

[gavztheouch]

A house that size will have a large carbon footprint to build and run no matter how you build it. Something to remember is not just the cost in pounds but the cost in damage to our atmosphere.

[jack]

21 hours ago, sameulepapi said:

We are not borrowing so that does not cause any issues but nobody wants to overpay. 

 

Given your budget, have you ever considered doing something smaller but higher quality?

 

I know some people on here don't like architects, but the right one working together with a good interior designer and landscape architect could potentially give you a barn conversion that would be an absolute joy to live in.

 

Think along the lines of better fixtures and fittings, hand-crafted built-in furniture where appropriate, a proper budget for interior design and the garden - all the stuff that people working to (and often beyond!) an already tight budget often don't have the luxury of considering.

 

You mentioned in your first post that there was more than one barn. I'd also be thinking about smaller outbuildings for things like a garage, gym, workshop, storage, etc. Friends of ours have a small barn in their back garden with a kitchen, pool table and big TV. They use it for entertaining, parties, their kids having friends over - all sorts of stuff.

 

Personally, I'd rather a perfect 300 m² house than a 500 m² house that's just good.

 

@Ferdinand might have some thoughts.

[saveasteading]

It depends so much on the barn condition and what you intend.

I have seen some professionally, and declined the work, where the remains of the building is of no value and a huge hindrance. (I didnt want to be involved in an illadvised, underfunded project).

Our family project is 400m2 and the projected  cost comes to about £1,000/m2. Looks like ending at about £1100 despite many setbacks.

BUT, a local Engineer (obliged to use one) said his fee must be based on £2,000. I think he would be right if we did not have family design skills plus a lot of diy.

 

So what sort of barn is it and what condition?

 

If it is several buildings , you could , of course, phase the work, also learning and optimising as you proceed. Esp you will have ended up with a team of builders you are happy with for phase 2. Sacked some, learned of others. 

[Ferdinand]

Having been paged by @jack, my concise thoughts are these:

 

- Your challenges are around costs, and that the value of houses in the SE are predicted to decline by 9% over 2 years at a time of 10% inflation, and you need to make the numbers work. So potential greater variability to manage / exploit.

 

- The risk is around how much you can afford to lose, and whether you can commit to it as a 10 year or 20 year home to salami-slice that risk over time.

 

- OTOH costs may work for you or against you by 10-30% depending on how focussed you are. It is always possible to spend time to save money by looking out stuff at 1/3 below market price.

 

- And you can look at our 2 offers of the week and money saving (eg Wickes Trade Account) pinned threads in the other forum. As this is a huge project, you may get years of air travel by using a points credit card etc.

https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/forum/48-general-self-build-diy-discussion/

 

What do I suggest:

 

- You need to gear up around your benefit (house value) or cost (money you spend) being variable by perhaps +/- 20% on both ends. At the worst your balance could be -1/3 or best +1/3.

 

- We already have house prices forecast to fall by 9% over 2 years before recovering. Could affect borrowing ability if you may need it.

 

- Expect a shift to capital taxes. People like me are arguing in all the forums where I am active for Council Tax to be replaced by a 0.5% of capital value tax, and personally I'm arguing for CGT on main dwellings as a way to de-bonkers the housing market. Tories won't do the first of those; in 2024 we likely get a Lab govt and they *will* hit capital in some way, especially cash rich people like you.

 

What does all that mean for your project?

 

- Plan it so you can achieve the outcome you need (depends on how much you really are just in cash) and can ride out challenges around potential changing costs and values.

 

- I'd say consider adopting the Royal Navy technique of "for but not with". An example would be to do your fabric work on Barn 2 as it may be more efficient to do both, but don't commit the 30k to fit out your gym until after the main project outcome is known. You can do the same with bathrooms. But bear in mind that some stuff can be done inside your VAT zero-rated self-build benefit - eg built in loo / bath for the gym, maybe wall-bars or exercise racks, but not portable rowing machines.

 

- On a project this size I'd seriously consider a Project Manager, either part or full time.

 

- Depending on your barns, can you sell Barn 2 as a separate plot with PP if you can get it? That will be worth loads.

 

- Use higher contingency than usual, and have lots of bits of your project that you can do subsequently whilst still leaving a project that does not look half finished - just in case you need to bail.

 

Summary

 

My core point is that you need to design in the project flexibility that you may need.

 

As ever, the old sore applies - the two things you have to manage throughout in addition to your project itself are RISK and MONEY, and the balance between the two that matches your circumstances.

 

F

[sameulepapi]

Very comprehensive, thanks @Ferdinandmuch appreciated. I think the point that was most scary to me was a new gov taking my cash (not that I am in anyway a Tory fan to be clear!)

 

 Also @jack we did indeed think along the same lines, smaller and better is probably the trick. 

 

Thanks all. Plenty to think on here.

[sameulepapi]

On 18/11/2022 at 11:55, saveasteading said:

It depends so much on the barn condition and what you intend.

I have seen some professionally, and declined the work, where the remains of the building is of no value and a huge hindrance. (I didnt want to be involved in an illadvised, underfunded project).

Our family project is 400m2 and the projected  cost comes to about £1,000/m2. Looks like ending at about £1100 despite many setbacks.

BUT, a local Engineer (obliged to use one) said his fee must be based on £2,000. I think he would be right if we did not have family design skills plus a lot of diy.

 

So what sort of barn is it and what condition?

 

If it is several buildings , you could , of course, phase the work, also learning and optimising as you proceed. Esp you will have ended up with a team of builders you are happy with for phase 2. Sacked some, learned of others. 

 

Barn is literally a frame with no walls, roof or slab. It is just 1m concrete foundations and frame. Not really a barn at all!

[Gus Potter]

On 16/11/2022 at 19:25, sameulepapi said:

So we are starting to put together budgets. Having spoken to a few architects we are being told we are looking at a MIN of £3.5k per sqm and most likely £5k per sq m with everything including fees and final finish......

Look at this another way maybe. If you can afford or even contemplate building a 500 sq m house then you can afford to talk to an SE that knows a bit about design and costs.

 

I'm at the other end of the country but wear two hats, SE but also a designer hat and have Clients coming to me that want to build big stuff. We maybe spend half a day chewing the fat and then I say hey I think this will fly but if you want high end then I know Architects that will make it work.

 

The big thing is that you get a different viewpoint and a down to earth one!

34 minutes ago, sameulepapi said:

Barn is literally a frame with no walls, roof or slab. It is just 1m concrete foundations and frame. Not really a barn at all!

Post more and you'll get loads og help and advise on BH.