Arched brick lintels: is builder being reasonable ?

[bmj1]

(1) Our working drawing shows the following detail above the windows:

 

 

Annotation pointing to the brick lintel above the arch reads: "PROVIDE A 215mm DEEP FLAT GAUGED BRICK ARCH ABOVE ALL WINDOWS AS SHOWN ON ELEVATIONS"

 

(2) Architect advised us that brick slipped lintels or hand cut bricks would both be appropriate, and we relayed to the builder.

 

3) Builder actually built the following:)

 

- The mortar joints measure 40mm to 45mm in places at the top of the arch

 

4) We advised that we expected even joints at top and bottom of the arch. Architect has advised us that what the builder has built does not match the drawings.

 

5) The builder says that the above is acceptable in their view (i.e. matches drawings), and will charge extra to change to ones with evenly spaced mortar joints at top and bottom of the brick arch.

 

Please can you advise me - is this reasonable - or are we paying twice for the same work ?

 

Many thanks in advance.

Edited October 5, 2022 by bmj1

[markc]

I would say your Architect has drawn something that is almost impossible to achieve on site using bricks and being done by brickies. If you want equal gaps on an arch you would have been better with off site fabricated arches using individually cut brick slips on a concrete or similar backing. If you look at your drawing you will see every brick is tapered along its length and with an angle cut end and I haven’t measure them but probably drawn longer than bricks are available anyway.

[nod]

6 minutes ago, markc said:

I would say your Architect has drawn something that is almost impossible to achieve on site using bricks and being done by brickies. If you want equal gaps on an arch you would have been better with off site fabricated arches using individually cut brick slips on a concrete or similar backing. If you look at your drawing you will see every brick is tapered along its length and with an angle cut end and I haven’t measure them but probably drawn longer than bricks are available anyway.

I agree with above Your Architecht is being ridiculous If he had wanted a prefab brick slip arch He should have specified which would have quadrupled your cost for each one 

It looks like your brickie has made a good job 

I bet he’s peed off 

[BadgerBadger]

I don't think I'd accept this. The builder has done a good job trying with straight bricks, but it clearly looks wrong. 

 

You can get tapered brick specials, and with these as a starting point I'm sure you could get much closer to your architects drawing and at least have consistent mortar joints.

 

How closely are you supervising on-site? If it wasn't specified/discussed closely enough you may have to pay for it to re-done, and lead-time on specials may be difficult.

[ProDave]

The arch does NOT match the drawing, the glaringly obvious bit being it should have a flat top, i.e. the middle bricks of the arch should be cut shorter than the end bricks to give that flat top.

 

Would a solution be to cut it off level in situ now?  that would remove most of the excessively wide joints at the top as well.  See how that then looks.

 

Are there more arches like this to do?

[jack]

2 hours ago, markc said:

If you want equal gaps on an arch you would have been better with off site fabricated arches using individually cut brick slips on a concrete or similar backing. 

 

2 hours ago, nod said:

I agree with above Your Architecht is being ridiculous If he had wanted a prefab brick slip arch He should have specified which would have quadrupled your cost for each one 

 

In the original post:

 

 

So the builder was told what was needed. If he couldn't do this, or didn't want to for whatever reason (e.g., it isn't practical based on the rest of the construction, or it's going to cost 10 times more than what he actually built, etc), the appropriate response is a conversation with the client, not to just press ahead and do something completely different.

 

I don't think what he's done is terrible. More evenly spaced mortar would have been better (the angle each brick makes with the arch shows you how he's got it wrong), but the main point is that he didn't build what was shown and agreed, and he did it without a discussion.

[Carrerahill]

10 hours ago, bmj1 said:

(1) Our working drawing shows the following detail above the windows:

 

 

Annotation pointing to the brick lintel above the arch reads: "PROVIDE A 215mm DEEP FLAT GAUGED BRICK ARCH ABOVE ALL WINDOWS AS SHOWN ON ELEVATIONS"

 

(2) Architect advised us that brick slipped lintels or hand cut bricks would both be appropriate, and we relayed to the builder.

 

3) Builder actually built the following:)

 

- The mortar joints measure 40mm to 45mm in places at the top of the arch

 

4) We advised that we expected even joints at top and bottom of the arch. Architect has advised us that what the builder has built does not match the drawings.

 

5) The builder says that the above is acceptable in their view (i.e. matches drawings), and will charge extra to change to ones with evenly spaced mortar joints at top and bottom of the brick arch.

 

Please can you advise me - is this reasonable - or are we paying twice for the same work ?

 

Many thanks in advance.

You would need custom cut/made etc. bricks to do what your architect has done. The centre bricks are parallel sided, then the rest need to be cut to work if you are to have even mortar joints and it to look reasonable. The second column out is where the diagonal aspect starts, so on both sides, from the centre, would have a perfectly vertical edge nearest the centre then a diagonal cut.

 

If your builder was good with a diamond disc you could ask him to cut the top flat to see how it looks and advise it is only as a possible option. I would also ask for your architect to detail this rather annoying little detail fully c/w proposed materials and examples and setting out including mortar joint detail. 

 

I work with architects drawings 5 days a week and we constantly need to go back to them with screeds of mark-ups and comments to get buildings to work, for me it is building services I am interested in, but its common for the engineering team to have issues with architectural drawings.

 

The builder is not blameless but I don't think the architect is either. 

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Carrerahill

[bmj1]

Hi all - thank you for the really thoughtful & clear feedback. Further comments as follows:

• Firstly, there is clearly a balance of opinions here between 'Architect is being ridiculous' and 'Work not matching the drawings'. This is really helpful, it shows me this is a bit of a grey area.
• To be fair to the builder, there are 10 arches required in total, and he has done 1 of the smaller ones and shown it to me for feedback. So he hasn't created a huge problem here or wasted a load of time and effort.
• To answer another question, I'm on site every day, I've found this to be crucial
• I like the creative idea of taking a diamond disk to it, but I can see with a bit of photoshop that it isn't going to work.
• Given these are a key feature for our house, I'll follow the builders advice and do the custom-cut bricks, and share pictures with this thread afterwards once we have the first arch.

Thank you all for the feedback, honestly, this has been very helpful 👏

[ToughButterCup]

11 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

...

I work with architects drawings 5 days a week and we constantly need to go back to them with screeds of mark-ups and comments to get buildings to work, for me it is building services I am interested in, but its common for the engineering team to have issues with architectural drawings.

...

 

... neatly describing why builders call architects eejits and architects say that builders never follow their drawings anyway

 

Another way of putting the same thing is :

•  two groups of Competent People (CDM 2015) - for whose services we pay - 
• do what the Hell they want
• and blame the other when things go breasts up

Which is why - for us paymasters - a sense of humour is compulsory.

[Carrerahill]

Your architect has shown a flat segmental arch.

 

Some options: https://www.ibstockbrick.co.uk/arches/

 

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Carrerahill

[Carrerahill]

5 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

... neatly describing why builders call architects eejits and architects say that builders never follow their drawings anyway

 

Another way of putting the same thing is :

•  two groups of Competent People (CDM 2015) - for whose services we pay - 
• do what the Hell they want
• and blame the other when things go breasts up

Which is why - for us paymasters - a sense of humour is compulsory.

Not quite, because I call architects and builders/contractors eejits in the same breath! 

 

I am looking at drawings at the moment for some low rise private flats, no riser... no space for multi-service board, no space for a dry riser, no space for sprinkler tanks, no space for booster pumps, no space for anything really. Architect is in a huff with me now because I sent back her drawings with mark-ups of where I want risers and plant space. 

 

Builder/contactor will still build it wrong.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Carrerahill

[George]

Architect should have drawn an appropriate method using normal masonry else specced a product.

 

You can't do what the builder has attempted because it's rubbish- but at least it was as a trial run!

[Ferdinand]

Good comments.

 

The link to various forms of arch is good.

https://www.ibstockbrick.co.uk/arches/

 

I think the tapered bricks are specialised rather than custom. In Georgian arches are these called "rubbers"?

 

There are other ways to do this - take a look around eg very modest 1870-1930-ish hosues when they were trying to reproduce Georgian/Victorian effects with mass-produced materials.

 

See what is vernacular for your area.

 

One is to have a triangular 'keystone' in the middle, which makes all the other mortar joints parallel using straight-sided bricks. Another is to use a triangular central element with cut bricks, which saves cutting all of them. They are everywhere in trad semis and terraces.

 

The architect diagram is clearly tapered bricks. Have a chat with your brickie about how he can give you the sharp effect you want. Buying modules is perhaps an option. The Ibstock ones look interesting:

https://www.ibstockbrick.co.uk/arches/

 

And there is an organisation called the Brick Development Association, best known for their magazine Brick Bulletin, who have all kinds of stuff on their website. Including a possibly useful information sheet:

https://www.brick.org.uk/admin/resources/d-brick-arch.pdf

 

I'd say they would advise you, though you will perhaps need to exhibit your innate enthusiastiasm about bricks and brickwork (which you seem to have). Personally, I love the stuff.

https://www.brick.org.uk/about/contact-us

 

I'd say this prominent element is a place to spend a reasonable amount of money, as if it is wrong you will be irritated every week.

 

And that working with your brickie positively is important. Keep any blame perception on yourself, and take the small financial hit. Make it "I want it a bit different" not "this is crap".

 

If it turns out great, remember that people like BDA issue prizes and commendations for good jobs, which beats "Kevin McCloud modelled my house in Garibaldi biscuits."

 

F

 

 

[Temp]

We went for brick slipped lintels. They look much better but cost a fair bit. Depends what you want. Ours are full arches. 

 

We provided regular bricks and the company cut them to tapered slips.

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Temp

[Temp]

Actually they look like full bricks not slips so perhaps they only had to cut them in one plane.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Temp

[bmj1]

7 minutes ago, Temp said:

We went for brick slipped lintels. They look much better but cost a fair bit. Depends what you want. Ours are full arches. 

 

We provided regular bricks and the company cut them to tapered slips.

 

 

Can I ask how much each of these lintels cost please ?

[Russell griffiths]

What has been built is utter shite. 

No I don’t think the architect drawing is correct either, but the interpretation is rubbish I could do better with a 4 inch grinder and one eye closed. 

You need to get the arch re drawn and find a better way of executing it. 

[Declan52]

We built loads of straight arches like these over the years. The bricks come pre cut so everything is the correct dimensions. There used to be a company in Dublin who specialises in these type of jobs. You could do it with a concrete saw but it would be very very time consuming thus making it very expensive. 

[joe90]

As much as I have maligned architects in the past, if that’s what they have proposed (and I used to live in a Georgian house with lintels like that), you accepted it and the builder quoted from the drawings then the builder is at fault. The least the builder should have done is say “I can’t do that”. Or “that will cost more”. I have arched windows tops to my “cottage esk” design and very pleased with them. 

[Temp]

Is not hard to find a brick cutting service. 

[Temp]

53 minutes ago, bmj1 said:

 

Can I ask how much each of these lintels cost please ?

Sorry I don't know as we used a prime contractor. Was also in 2007.

 

In your position I think I would get a drawing made and take a load of bricks to a cutting service. Have the builder use them instead. Worst thing will be timescales probably.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Temp

[PeterW]

39 minutes ago, bmj1 said:

 

Can I ask how much each of these lintels cost please ?

So you say there are 8 more arches ..?? If so you will need to have each cut to order - the angles will be different on each size and to match the brick patterns on the architects plan (parallel mortar lines) then they will need to be cut at least twice and numbered. Expect to pay £2-300 per arch for specials to be cut and created for each one. 

[BadgerBadger]

4 hours ago, bmj1 said:

Hi all - thank you for the really thoughtful & clear feedback. Further comments as follows:

• Firstly, there is clearly a balance of opinions here between 'Architect is being ridiculous' and 'Work not matching the drawings'. This is really helpful, it shows me this is a bit of a grey area.
• To be fair to the builder, there are 10 arches required in total, and he has done 1 of the smaller ones and shown it to me for feedback. So he hasn't created a huge problem here or wasted a load of time and effort.
• To answer another question, I'm on site every day, I've found this to be crucial
• I like the creative idea of taking a diamond disk to it, but I can see with a bit of photoshop that it isn't going to work.
• Given these are a key feature for our house, I'll follow the builders advice and do the custom-cut bricks, and share pictures with this thread afterwards once we have the first arch.

Thank you all for the feedback, honestly, this has been very helpful 👏

 

Great!  I was worried the whole house was done - so builder's invested a few hours to show what easily achievable on one arch, not really a big deal if you have to take it down but you can now work through and see what's practical vs cost implications. 

 

Keep us posted!  We're working through similar with our brickwork at the moment.  What bond are you using - do I spy a queen closer..?

[Temp]

Indcative pricing..  http://www.mcbrick.co.uk/our-price-list

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Temp

[Canski]

The architect has set a very high bar. My thoughts as a bricklayer faced with high bars every week :-

 

1) To build it as his drawing would entail cutting the bottom of the brick at an angle. How is this going to look from below once the arch former is removed ?   Would that look acceptable ? I think not.

2) It is far from the best brickwork that I have ever seen. I think that I may have investigated if it were possible to get an extra brick in with tighter joints at the bottom therefore tighter joints at the top.

3) The first 3 bricks on the right hand side are not flat on the former and are leaning slightly which has caused a larger joint at the top. .

4) Without cutting voussoirs the joints will always be larger at the top

5) To cut the top of that arch flat would look ridiculous

6) I'll ask this when the architect has addressed 1)

 Maybe you need some of these shown in the photo but that would take ages and you would need new bricklayers by then.